Jeremy Lin

[bedwardsroy19]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I just released a roster update and in the update Lin was a 76.

Ive been called a h8r (not sure why the actual word is blocked out) in this thread a couple of times. I had consistently been saying Lin shouldn't be given ratings he's needed to earn them.

I re-evaluated each individual attribute and he has earned the hell out of that 76.

[fluent2332]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I just released a roster update and in the update Lin was a 76.

Ive been called a h8r (not sure why the actual word is blocked out) in this thread a couple of times. I had consistently been saying Lin shouldn't be given ratings he's needed to earn them.

I re-evaluated each individual attribute and he has earned the hell out of that 76.

76 is not bad. My gut still tells me he will end up being an 80-82-84 range when all the dust settles. I'd like to see your ratings. Could you post them here?

[truegame2]

Re: Jeremy Lin

There's a person in our league that can shoot just fine with Griffin.

I bet he's the top player in the league or spent a whole lotta time perfecting his shot. How many have you seen shoot jumpers wit Griffin?

[slimm44]

That's cool. Opinions vary. My ratings scales (for statistical ratings ie passing, blocking, shooting %, etc) are based off of what works in 2k's engine. Specifically, which ones don't you agree with and why?

[fluent2332]

Re: Jeremy Lin

That's cool. Opinions vary. My ratings scales (for statistical ratings ie passing, blocking, shooting %, etc) are based off of what works in 2k's engine. Specifically, which ones don't you agree with and why?

Here's a quick breakdown of your ratings. I'm not going to touch the tendency ratings because frankly I don't have enough knowledge about how those work to really comment on them. But as for the rest...

Layup - I would give him an 88. He makes some acrobatic, tough layups in traffic.

Shoot in Traffic - I'd give him a 90 here. He finishes excellently in traffic and that's really where he does most of his damage.

Steal - I'd give him an 80. He's shown he's good at stealing the ball.

On-ball defense - Definitely an 85. He's very solid on-ball.

Offensive awareness - 92. He's an offensive genius, enough said.

Defensive awareness - 80. He's shown he knows what to do on the defensive side of the ball.

Offensive clutch - 90. He's leading the league in 4th quarter scoring during his stretch, and he also has a game winning shot in that stretch. He's very clutch.

Defensive clutch - 75. He had a few big defensive plays including a key steal in the game versus the Hornets. I know that's a small sample size, but with a rating like clutch, it only takes a small sample size to tell if the player "has it" or not. I may even raise this to an 80, but 75 seems good for now.

Potential - 85. All the potential in the world really.

Consistency - 85. He's been very consistent in this stretch of games.

Strength - 55. He's strong enough to finish shots with contact as he has shown many, many times so far.

Ball Security - Not really sure what rating I would give him, but 65 is too low. Yes he has had turnovers, but in the Dallas game for example, he played 46 minutes and only had 6 turnovers. That's an average of one turnover every 8 minutes or so. That's not bad. Also, his turnovers are skewed because of how often he has the ball (nearly every play for the Knicks is a Lin pick and roll - at least one of them, if not more. And he is currently the only Knick that can create his own shot. So his turnovers are naturally going to be higher. I'd say his Ball Security should be an 80.

I don't want it to seem like I'm overrating him, but I've watched him play multiple times now, and I'm judging these ratings based off what I've seen with my own eyes, not off hype, not off someone's scouting report, just off what I've actually seen from this kid. Judging by what I've seen he is the real deal and a very good player. Let's see if he can keep this up.

[KensaiKatai]

Re: Jeremy Lin

Here's a quick breakdown of your ratings. I'm not going to touch the tendency ratings because frankly I don't have enough knowledge about how those work to really comment on them. But as for the rest...

Layup - I would give him an 88. He makes some acrobatic, tough layups in traffic.

Shoot in Traffic - I'd give him a 90 here. He finishes excellently in traffic and that's really where he does most of his damage.

Steal - I'd give him an 80. He's shown he's good at stealing the ball.

On-ball defense - Definitely an 85. He's very solid on-ball.

Offensive awareness - 92. He's an offensive genius, enough said.

Defensive awareness - 80. He's shown he knows what to do on the defensive side of the ball.

Offensive clutch - 90. He's leading the league in 4th quarter scoring during his stretch, and he also has a game winning shot in that stretch. He's very clutch.

Defensive clutch - 75. He had a few big defensive plays including a key steal in the game versus the Hornets. I know that's a small sample size, but with a rating like clutch, it only takes a small sample size to tell if the player "has it" or not. I may even raise this to an 80, but 75 seems good for now.

Potential - 85. All the potential in the world really.

Consistency - 85. He's been very consistent in this stretch of games.

Strength - 55. He's strong enough to finish shots with contact as he has shown many, many times so far.

Ball Security - Not really sure what rating I would give him, but 65 is too low. Yes he has had turnovers, but in the Dallas game for example, he played 46 minutes and only had 6 turnovers. That's an average of one turnover every 8 minutes or so. That's not bad. Also, his turnovers are skewed because of how often he has the ball (nearly every play for the Knicks is a Lin pick and roll - at least one of them, if not more. And he is currently the only Knick that can create his own shot. So his turnovers are naturally going to be higher. I'd say his Ball Security should be an 80.

I don't want it to seem like I'm overrating him, but I've watched him play multiple times now, and I'm judging these ratings based off what I've seen with my own eyes, not off hype, not off someone's scouting report, just off what I've actually seen from this kid. Judging by what I've seen he is the real deal and a very good player. Let's see if he can keep this up.

agree with all of this.. i knew he was the real deal from his first game against the nets.. i would say all of this with the potential to go up.. i had him at 71 after his 10pt 13 assist game.. i have him at 82 now.. and he could go up. I want his performance in game to reflect his performance in real life and right now he is playing as good as anyone EVER has. To deny otherwise in the interest of long term sustainability is understandable but in my eyes you are just denying the inevitable. His overall will easily be mid 80s when it's all said and done...at least as far as this season is concerned if he stays healthy. He is that good.

[slimm44]

Re: Jeremy Lin

My responses are in bold:

Here's a quick breakdown of your ratings. I'm not going to touch the tendency ratings because frankly I don't have enough knowledge about how those work to really comment on them. But as for the rest...

Layup - I would give him an 88. He makes some acrobatic, tough layups in traffic.

He hits 57% of his shots at the rim. The league high is 75%. Giving him an 88 means he is RARELY going to miss at the rim, but in real life he makes slightly over half of his attempts at the rim. I think you're allowing the times where he makes the tough ones outweigh the times where he drives, gets to the rim, and is not able to finish.

Shoot in Traffic - I'd give him a 90 here. He finishes excellently in traffic and that's really where he does most of his damage.

Giving him a 90 means that regardless of how close a defender to him, he is very likely to hit the shot. I'd be willing to maybe give him an 85, but that's the highest I'd go.

Steal - I'd give him an 80. He's shown he's good at stealing the ball.

His ability to steal the ball earns him a 72 by 2k's sim-engine. They overrate nearly all players WAY too much by default and it skews people's opinions. The max their steal rating scale goes is based off of a steal % of 5. He's at 2.9, I believe. A 72, for current NBA players, is VERY good.

On-ball defense - Definitely an 85. He's very solid on-ball.

An 85 means he can stick with nearly all PG's in the game. He's not that quick. A 70 really isn't a bad rating if all players are scaled correctly. Again, this is a rating that 2k always overrates.

Offensive awareness - 92. He's an offensive genius, enough said.

I disagree that he's nearly as smart on the offensive side of the ball as anybody in the league. Giving him a 92 gives him almost no room to grow, and as well as he's played and as much excitement as he's brought, he has plenty of room to grow

Defensive awareness - 80. He's shown he knows what to do on the defensive side of the ball.

The only player on their team who deserves at least an 80 is Tyson Chandler. Lin has started 8 games, so essentially he knows the game about as well as a rookie. His stats are GREAT and he's shown the ability to run the pick and roll effectively, but it's too early to tell if his stats are inflated because of the system he's in. My guess is, they are, at least a little.

Offensive clutch - 90. He's leading the league in 4th quarter scoring during his stretch, and he also has a game winning shot in that stretch. He's very clutch.

Defensive clutch - 75. He had a few big defensive plays including a key steal in the game versus the Hornets. I know that's a small sample size, but with a rating like clutch, it only takes a small sample size to tell if the player "has it" or not. I may even raise this to an 80, but 75 seems good for now.

Combining both clutch ratings - He's played 8 games. If he plays this well in the playoffs, when clutch is really clutch, I'll agree with you. His best clutch moment has come against the Raptors with Calderon guarding him. I don't think he strikes fear into the heart of ball-handlers.

Potential - 85. All the potential in the world really.

I may be able to agree with this. With my scale, an 85 means the player has the potential to be a perennial all-star. I'm iffy on the 85.

Consistency - 85. He's been very consistent in this stretch of games.

If the game defines this rating correctly, it doesn't affect overall consistency, but the ability to get on a hot shooting streak or get out of a cold streak. I haven't seen much of this from him as the majority of his points come from scoring at the rim or in the paint on those nice pull-ups and floaters he does.

Strength - 55. He's strong enough to finish shots with contact as he has shown many, many times so far.

In my roster, a 50 is the highest strength rating for a PG. Giving him a 55 would make him as strong as the strongest PG and as strong as the average shooting guard. I can go as high as 50.

Ball Security - Not really sure what rating I would give him, but 65 is too low. Yes he has had turnovers, but in the Dallas game for example, he played 46 minutes and only had 6 turnovers. That's an average of one turnover every 8 minutes or so. That's not bad. Also, his turnovers are skewed because of how often he has the ball (nearly every play for the Knicks is a Lin pick and roll - at least one of them, if not more. And he is currently the only Knick that can create his own shot. So his turnovers are naturally going to be higher. I'd say his Ball Security should be an 80.

His turnover rate is 11th highest in the league. No matter how you slice it, he turns the ball over. Either his Offensive Awareness needs to be lower than a 92, his Ball security needs to be lower than an 80, or both. 21% of his possessions end in a turnover. That's a lot no matter how you look at it.

I don't want it to seem like I'm overrating him, but I've watched him play multiple times now, and I'm judging these ratings based off what I've seen with my own eyes, not off hype, not off someone's scouting report, just off what I've actually seen from this kid. Judging by what I've seen he is the real deal and a very good player. Let's see if he can keep this up.

I do think you're overrating him, but mainly based on 2k's rating standards as I don't think you have an understanding of how their scales work together in the sim-engine. I mean NO disrespect by that, but few people really "get it" when it comes to how the numbers work within the game. If I get time later, I'll run a season simulation with the Knicks using the ratings/tendencies I posted earlier and post the results.

agree with all of this.. i knew he was the real deal from his first game against the nets.. i would say all of this with the potential to go up.. i had him at 71 after his 10pt 13 assist game.. i have him at 82 now.. and he could go up. I want his performance in game to reflect his performance in real life and right now he is playing as good as anyone EVER has. To deny otherwise in the interest of long term sustainability is understandable but in my eyes you are just denying the inevitable. His overall will easily be mid 80s when it's all said and done...at least as far as this season is concerned if he stays healthy. He is that good.

SMH.

[Pitfighter87]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I said goodbye, but I missed you guys so much I had to peek my head in again. When I saw people saying he deserved to be rated in the mid-80's and that 2k has given him an Offensive Awareness rating of 92, I couldn't resist.

Without further ado, if I was going to update Lin in my roster set, which I'm not going to yet because it's still not been enough games, this is what his ratings/tendencies would look like on his streak:

Inside Shot 57% = 65 (Would need to be a 93 to work with 2k's sim-engine because they used a scale that's way too low)
Close Shot 42% = 81
Mid Range Shot 40% = 80 (This is a projected rating. He is shooting 63% from 16-23 feet this year which equals to somewhere around 126 on 2k's scale but on 1.6 shots per game from that distance. There is no way he continues that long-term.)
3PT Shot 32% = 75
Layup = 75
Dunk = 55
Shoot In Traffic = 75
Passing (Assist %) 43 = 90 (This is a projected rating. His Assist % is at 50 right now but I don't know if he sustains that over the course of a season. With an assist % of 43 he will hand out assists at the same rate as Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Tony Parker. During this streak he has generated an assist % of 50 which would give him a 99 rating in passing, statistically speaking.)
Steal (Steal %) 2.9 = 72
Block (Block %) .6 = 31
On Ball Defense = 70 (Slightly under league average for PG's)
Off Reb (Off Reb %) 2.5 = 36
Def Reb (Def Reb %) 10.3 = 50
Offensive Awareness = 75 (Potential All-Star)
Defensive Awareness = 65 (Average)
Offensive Clutch = 75
Defensive Clutch = 65
Potential = 75 (Potential All-Star)
Consistency = 75 (Potential All-Star)
Speed = 85
Quickness = 85
Strength = 40 (League Average for PG's)
Off-Hand Dribbling = 85
Ball Security = 65 (Maybe 55. He's averaging just under 6 TO per game in the last 9 games while playing an avg. of 36-38MPG. That's pretty high.)

Take Shot Tendency (16FGA/36MPG) 50
Inside Shot Tendency 75
Close Shot Tendency 47
Mid Range Shot Tendency 30
3PT Shot Tendency 28
Touches Tendency 31 (Usage %)

This would give him an overall rating of 68 with tendencies and ratings that work with 2k's simulation engine. The only two flawed statistical ratings are Inside Shot (2k's sim engine would have to have a 95 in this rating to sim at 57%) and Blocking.

Very nice sir.Thank you.

[DJ]

Re: Jeremy Lin

I've only hit one jump shot with Griffin, his shot doesn't fall unless I do a floating hook or turnaround back to the basket shot. I've yet to see anyone hit one outside the circle. I've played a few players that knew how to shoot with Lin or anybody with a decent shot. You gotta master his release. In Griffins case, he just can't put enough on the ball to make a shot .He's shooting 51% 9-17 FG ( not all dunks) I think he should be MUCH better from mid range, especially from 12-15 feet.

I use Real FG%, so the release timing isn't a factor.

[twilliams18]

Re: Jeremy Lin

Might be a little biased since I'm a life long Knicks fan, but here's my two cents.

Definitely agree that his security should be up higher a little higher. For the most part, his turnovers haven't been caused by his defender reaching in and going for the steal. With that being said, in my opinion he hasn't faced many tests in that regards yet. The better defenders that have guarded him have tried to contain him / pass the ball, not directly go in for steals. I'm very concerned about how he will do vs. Miami and Chalmers/Wade on Thursday. His turnovers haven't been too detrimental, but there's no way Miami converts on any less than 80% of turnovers by the back court.

I'd support the high passing rate suggested above as well, this kid can thread the needle. A high percentage of his turnovers come off passes, but it's not really because of his ability to pass, it's because of how much he forces bad plays.

This really makes me wish there was a tendency for "pass to players who aren't looking to receive the ball", because if that was set fairly high and his security / pass ratings were up - then I think we would see a fairly close version of how he actually plays.

Overall though, I think his rating is fairly accurate. The overall means so little, it's just how you use him. Look at Steve Novak, dude's rated a what... 48 in the last update? I felt they undervalued him, but once I went through his individual ratings I felt better knowing that those were accurate and the algorithm that produces the overall isn't really the best for calculating a player's true value. I'm not saying the dude should be rated as high as an NBA Legend like Jake Voskuhl (joke) or anything, but I was surprised to see him below 55.

And that's my rant for the evening, time to go watch the Garden heckle Kris Humphries.

[houstonsdream]

Re: Jeremy Lin

Here's a quick breakdown of your ratings. I'm not going to touch the tendency ratings because frankly I don't have enough knowledge about how those work to really comment on them. But as for the rest...

Layup - I would give him an 88. He makes some acrobatic, tough layups in traffic.

Shoot in Traffic - I'd give him a 90 here. He finishes excellently in traffic and that's really where he does most of his damage.

Steal - I'd give him an 80. He's shown he's good at stealing the ball.

On-ball defense - Definitely an 85. He's very solid on-ball.

Offensive awareness - 92. He's an offensive genius, enough said.

Defensive awareness - 80. He's shown he knows what to do on the defensive side of the ball.

Offensive clutch - 90. He's leading the league in 4th quarter scoring during his stretch, and he also has a game winning shot in that stretch. He's very clutch.

Defensive clutch - 75. He had a few big defensive plays including a key steal in the game versus the Hornets. I know that's a small sample size, but with a rating like clutch, it only takes a small sample size to tell if the player "has it" or not. I may even raise this to an 80, but 75 seems good for now.

Potential - 85. All the potential in the world really.

Consistency - 85. He's been very consistent in this stretch of games.

Strength - 55. He's strong enough to finish shots with contact as he has shown many, many times so far.

Ball Security - Not really sure what rating I would give him, but 65 is too low. Yes he has had turnovers, but in the Dallas game for example, he played 46 minutes and only had 6 turnovers. That's an average of one turnover every 8 minutes or so. That's not bad. Also, his turnovers are skewed because of how often he has the ball (nearly every play for the Knicks is a Lin pick and roll - at least one of them, if not more. And he is currently the only Knick that can create his own shot. So his turnovers are naturally going to be higher. I'd say his Ball Security should be an 80.

I don't want it to seem like I'm overrating him, but I've watched him play multiple times now, and I'm judging these ratings based off what I've seen with my own eyes, not off hype, not off someone's scouting report, just off what I've actually seen from this kid. Judging by what I've seen he is the real deal and a very good player. Let's see if he can keep this up.

wow overated!!! 9-21 isnt consistant when you shoot 20+ shots per game. with your ratings he would be almost a 90 rating even with his horrible turnover tendency. You guys trying to hard like ESPN to make this guy good. your rating= lin rated 85 !!strength and defense clutch dont matter but you giving him tony parker ratings. Never seen so much hype on every website i go to

[twilliams18]

Re: Jeremy Lin

wow overated!!! 9-21 isnt consistant when you shoot 20+ shots per game. with your ratings he would be almost a 90 rating even with his horrible turnover tendency. You guys trying to hard like ESPN to make this guy good. your rating= lin rated 85 !!strength and defense clutch dont matter but you giving him tony parker ratings. Never seen so much hype on every website i go to

I could be wrong, but it was to my understanding that the consistency rating just judged a player's ability to get in slumps or catch fire. I'd say he's fairly consistent in that he has the same shot ratio / percentage and never has true Mike Bibby-esque slumps. When the kid gets hot, he gets hot. I'd rate him at about 75 -- considering I've found anything less than 55/60 can result in some slumps. Unfortunately we don't have much of a sample base to run true analytics on, but as of now I'd rate him somewhere around 75, maybe 80. He hasn't gotten in any ruts and he has shown he can heat up.

[bedwardsroy19]

Re: Jeremy Lin

Someone asked where he is at with me-

Shot Inside- 83
Shot Close- 81
Shot Medium- 70
Shot 3PT- 65
Layup- 85
Shot in Traffic- 68
Off Hand- 74
Ball Security- 74
Pass- 83
Steal- 74
Hands- 83
On Ball D-74
Off Awareness- 85
Def Awarenes- 73
Off Clutch- 70
Consistency- 50
Speed- 85
Quickness- 90
Strength- 55
Vertical- 75
Hustle- 90
Potential- 71

Came out to a 76 for me.

[CueDub]

Re: Jeremy Lin

Put Jeremy Lin on the Wizards and out of Mike Dantonis offense and im not so sure we'd even be haven the J.Lin discussion.I agree the kid can play but he's playin in a PG's dream offense.John Wall isnt running pick and roll everytime down the court he's given it to Young or Crawford off of screens and ISO's.Walls 17 points and 7 ast isnt nothin to sleep on,on a team thats second best player is Nick Young or Javale McGee.

Wall does a have weakness and that's shooting from outside. Lin isn't a long range bomber, but he can atleast hit the open 3. I haven't seen Wall do it yet.

[MrPolo7]

Re: Jeremy Lin

Wall does a have weakness and that's shooting from outside. Lin isn't a long range bomber, but he can atleast hit the open 3. I haven't seen Wall do it yet.

Neither could Rose...just wait! (sorry..little bias as a Wiz fan ahhaha)