How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

[Bornindamecca]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

The offensive fouls are fantastic.

[Tengo Juego]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

I get it. I really do.

It's a tough balance because a part of me feels that a player should automatically know how to play defense. I hate having to press a button to tell a guy that it's time to body the post-up player or to get into a crouch. That's just obvious. I consider it as obvious as dribbling the basketball and thank goodness we don't have to repeatedly press the x button just to dribble the ball - imagine how crazy that would be.

But, right now, we're not seeing that quick recognition so frustration occurs and people want that control - the CPU is simply not responding quick enough or not recognizing when it should get into either defensive sets.

That's a problem. I agree with that. I think you would agree that if defensive players reacted to offensive situations in a realistic manner (ie: body the post up player instantly, legally hand check when defending a dribbler) then you'd be satisfied. It would be one less thing to worry about on defense because you shouldn't have to worry about that sort of thing. It's really elementary to have the user control that aspect of the game.

Now offensively, it gets a little bit more complicated and that's why I agree that there should be a post-up button on offense. There's no real way for the AI to know what you want your player to do on offense. Offense is about creation so you need control to create, whereas defense is about reaction/movement so you should be mostly concerned with reacting to the offense's movement and/or assuming the movement and acting accordingly (bodying up the post player, putting a hand up on the shot attempt, or legally hand checking the dribbler should not be our concern as the user. Every player should already know how to do this. Every player does it. To tell the player to do those things is rather silly when that player should just do it). But moving side to side, closing the gap, jumping up for a block; that should be on the user.

Now, the only way I would accept the lack of a post-up button (or perhaps compromise with having it both auto and user-controlled) is if post-up percentage was an attribute or a strong part of DNA (not sure if it is).

So, for example, maybe a guy like Jamal Crawford doesn't post up so the AI would never have him do it. It's not within his game and we are moving toward signature animations and movement, right? So having Crawford post-up would work against that idea. However, a Kobe Bryant should post up when on the wing. Maybe he doesn't do it all the time, but if his rating says he should do it, I don't know, let's say 54% of the time, then he should do it about that often when the user moves him in the wing. And this should happen for both the User and CPU.

I'm not sure if this is already happening and it just needs to be tuned better.

Nodded my head throughout this entire post.

But still, having it attached to DNA, I think we would still see problems in triggering a post up. Or maybe I'm just underestimating DNA.

[CMH]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

Nodded my head throughout this entire post.

But still, having it attached to DNA, I think we would still see problems in triggering a post up. Or maybe I'm just underestimating DNA.

This is the classic argument in baseball video games.

Contact in swings. Users want realism and realism says that even when a guy is right on a swing, he can completely miss the pitch or foul it straight back. As a user, playing a video game we want to win, it frustrates us for it to happen. But, it's realistic. So there's the trade off. What do you want? Do you want the video game to randomly decide when you make contact with a pitched ball or do you want it based entirely on a user's ability to time the pitch?

The latter makes games easy after a while because we pick it up, we learn, and we master. The former can make it feel as if the user isn't really controlling the outcome.

I see this as the same thing with post up (and other factors of basketball). There's someone out there that's going to want to post up with Jamal Crawford. I, personally, would never do it because I know Crawford doesn't post up and I would feel awkward making him do it. But a user is going to want that control. Then there's the people that want the engine to make Crawford play like Crawford - if he doesn't post up, then don't let me post up with him. Ever.

So, that's the trade off. What do you want? Do you want games to be incredibly realistic understanding that as games become more realistic, control will be taken away from the user (DNA is basically taking away control when you really, really think about it. Guys running around on their own, setting picks/screens whenever they want. You're not doing that. The game is making that decision for you) or do you want more control understanding that if complete control is given to the user, a video game could never become incredibly realistic.

Now, what's fun? There's the balance that the NBA Live team faces, that the NBA 2k team faces, that the MLB: The Show team faces. They all face it. How do we make this game fun while also making it realistic? It's a hodge podge of results. The entire fan base can never be pleased.

[Tengo Juego]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

Why cant I have both? I mean, if that user wants to "try" to play differently from Jamal Crawford, he wont have success, because he's not good at it. I definitely want A.I. controlled Crawford to play to his tendencies and play style, but if a user is mis-using a player, they should suffer. I'm not saying Crawford should fall down or lose the ball each time he attempted it. The player just wouldn't have a ton of success with it because his rating in that particular area isn't very good.

[rawdog805]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

Manual Post up needs to implemented ASAP.. Its really pissing me off that I try to turn me back to the basket with Kobe, and he instead dribbles straight into the defender and goes into an animation where he loses the ball.. JESUS... cmon man...

Also too many in air collisions, and I cant find the slider to change it..

[Bornindamecca]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

I don't think the post up is that big of a trade off when it comes to realism. Jamal has an outstanding ball handle, so if someone is within 10 lbs and three inches of his size, he's going to try to get around them. Now if he gets matched up with someone much smaller than himself, he might try to post once in awhile, if he finds himself on the block. He's not going to turn into Dwight Howard all of a sudden, but there are reasons he wouldn't do this repeatedly in real life beyond his player DNA.

--Teams would help
--a smaller player means that it's easier for him to simply shoot a jumper over them, which he prefers.
--he doesn't have a large repertoire of post moves
--this is a very rare situation to find himself in

Jamal in the post is no different than Shaq on the perimeter. Players have the freedom to explore an unsuccessful scenario, and the game engine should be built to lower the percentages of their success.

There are "fun vs. sim" situations in bball games, but this isn't one of them. Fouls is a more apt comparison to the example of baseball that you brought up. This is more akin to scrambling with a slow QB in Madden. You can do it, but you're gonna get tackled.

Same thing with Jamal. He can post up, but don't be shocked if his man doesn't get backed down, his shot is off, or he gets blocked. People should have plenty of freedom to play poorly. As long as the game doesn't give them unrealistic results, I don't think the fun is taken away from anyone.

[bizcanos]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

So, that's the trade off. What do you want? Do you want games to be incredibly realistic understanding that as games become more realistic, control will be taken away from the user (DNA is basically taking away control when you really, really think about it. Guys running around on their own, setting picks/screens whenever they want. You're not doing that. The game is making that decision for you) or do you want more control understanding that if complete control is given to the user, a video game could never become incredibly realistic.

I disagree. I am not controlling the cpu players. They of course should do what they want to do, they are the cpu. Plus I can call plays and picks. My issue, is the person I am controlling. I should be able to do what I want, when I want. If I want to post up at half court, let me do it. If I want to do spin move from the 3 point line, so be it. If I want to body up, let me do it. Don't let the cpu decide what the player I am controlling can do. Make me pay for my actions not limit what I can do in the first place. All the other cpu players can do what they like...I play videogames to be in control of my player.

[CMH]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

So then the trade off is that Jamal Crawford suffers when he tries to post up.

Are you satisfied with that? I can already see people complaining that Jamal Crawford isn't a reliable wing player because everytime he gets into a post up, he falters.

Like I said, you can't please everyone.

[Solid-Bri]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

The auto post-up was a poor choice in my opinion. In so many ways, the development team has tried to put control back into the user's hands... Successfully, with things like shooting, passing, and dribbling. But this is one area where the complete opposite has been achieved. I'm surprised that Beluba of all people would implement this.

Is it enough for me to avoid buying the game? No. But it's certainly something that stands out as a questionable design choice.

[JBucc]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

I think it works well enough that it doesn't hurt the game, but I don't see any real advantage to having it this way. I have had a couple of times where I wanted to back down and ended up running into a guy and getting the ball stripped.

[Tengo Juego]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

So then the trade off is that Jamal Crawford suffers when he tries to post up.

Are you satisfied with that? I can already see people complaining that Jamal Crawford isn't a reliable wing player because everytime he gets into a post up, he falters.

Like I said, you can't please everyone.

A.I. controlled Jamal should rarely attempt to post up. But if someone wants to do it, they should be able to. I dont see how that displeasing someone if you give post up a button. Is someone really that attached to the auto post?

[Bornindamecca]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

So then the trade off is that Jamal Crawford suffers when he tries to post up.

Are you satisfied with that? I can already see people complaining that Jamal Crawford isn't a reliable wing player because everytime he gets into a post up, he falters.

Like I said, you can't please everyone.

Not sure if that makes sense. Every wing player doesn't have a strong post up game. Jamal is of average height and below average weight. Don't really see how a post up game relates to his reliability. Unless you're talking about the extreme minority of bball fans who don't know that Jamal doesn't have a post up game.

If we're going to find crazy people and bring them up to justify a perspective, we can do that all day. We can say "if Shaq doesn't have a crossover, some people will be upset". I'm sure that's true for someone somewhere, but does that really inform our discussion here?

A.I. controlled Jamal should rarely attempt to post up. But if someone wants to do it, they should be able to. I dont see how that displeasing someone if you give post up a button. Is someone really that attached to the auto post?

Yeah, I'm kind of puzzled by the direction of the discussion at this point. We're just talking about players having the freedom to do what they want, but being constrained by the abilities of the players they choose to do those things with.


The people who really want to post up with Jamal can put it on rookie if they don't want realistic results.

[Rocboyz101]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

I'm noticing more and more its not auto..you can post up when ever you decide to..

[bizcanos]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

I'm noticing more and more its not auto..you can post up when ever you decide to..

It's the fact that you can only do the post up position when there is contact. You can't do it to protect the ball or you can't initiate the post up position then have contact. The defender has to be in contact mode in order for it to happen. It's like the defender is telling you "hey, you can only post up when I let you."

[23]

Re: How Do You All Feel About The Auto Post Up?

theyre going to patch it, should we continue to go on with the post up thing? itll be auto and manual... id say we should all be happy right now knowing that