A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

[HoosierDaddy]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

And here-in lies my dilemma. I won't be satisfied, because I won't be buying another year 1 title.

I really hope that they get things together, and this is a fun title for those of you who buy it. I hope they get their 90+ score so they can keep adding to the same title, instead of scrap and rebuild.

I know you were at Community Day, and you and Pared were the two that I was looking most forward to hearing from (there was someone else, but he's not coming to mind at the moment). I was excited.

Then the lack of videos... lack of solid information. We'd get the "dev clips"... showing 1 on 1 stuff. Who cares, that's not what we're buying. Then 23 forced their hands, and they had to do some damage control.

This whole things just reeks of NBA Live 07. No videos, no information really, just fluff and filler.


This. It's now up to me to not support this never ending process. Next year, I may look at installment 2 of 3... may wait til 3 of 3 actually gets here. I'm tired of buying each installment, only for the promise of "next year".

I agree with everything you've said. We were all anxious to hear what the plan was by the devs when we first got to community day. Our event took place a week after the announcement of the name change and no other information had been released. A lot of us were skeptical after their introduction. We shared the same thoughts many here are preaching now, why mess with the controls when Live 10 was fine? The title needed depth with animations and signature features. Regardless, we tried to remain open-minded and were pleasantly surprised after playing for awhile. You can clearly see the direction they're going and once you FEEL the game, you will like it to. I said in my blog, it'd be hard to play basketball any other way, and I truly believe that. My issue, as I mentioned in the previous post, is about consistency. If EA is serious about putting out a legit title, they need to keep the same dev crew on board for AT LEAST a 3-year cycle. After talking extensively with many of the developers, we all came away from the event with good feelings about where this franchise is headed, I just hope they stay the course and not deviate like they've done in the past.

[MarvellousOne]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Man WTF excellent post! Very well put together and I believe you hit the nail straight on the head perfectly with everything you said I'm not sure why they decide to change directions every 1 or 2 years into the Live series cycle on Next Gen. Last Gen they always built upon there foundations and every year would get better and better but that vision or way of development has seemed to be lost in the shuffle somewhere because Live seemed to change just about every year with things being scrapped and something else completely taking over in place of what was working. Live 10 as many people believed was one year or so away from getting EA back on track, then what they do then change direction again and as history has shown the last 5 titles on Next Gen every time they do this it hasn't translated to anything good.

Brillaint Post WTF. Sums it up beautifully. EA markets their games as if there past was unknown. There is very little trust between longtime EA basketball fan's and EA's hoop titles. With all the turnover they have I don't think they fully understand how much their past effects hoop gamer sentiments Today.

Live 10's failure to sell well IMHO had virtually nothing to do with the quality of that game. It was the result of the gamer's distaste for their entire next gen product line.

If we match up the marketing videos and press with actual footage of those games you would see a grand difference between what they touted and what we received.

I mentioned in an earlier post about them definitely attracting new buyers with the Fame of Littman but those new fans are not the base of support this franchise has enjoyed over the years.

When guys like shadows and Pasta are not really feeling what your doing your losing you last line of support. What you gain in return I don't believe will garner long time success for your series.

The gamer crowd will move onto the next game shortly after launch. They are not throwing their own personally sponsored launch parties and making up flyers and videos and rosters keeping your game alive and others interested.

Selling a basketball game to me is much different than selling to the other audiences. I don't think people are getting that aspect when I talk about The sport I love is not able to be compared with those other sports.

Much of that has to do with the History of the 2 game companies still left developing hoop games and what DROVE most of live's fans into the hands of 2k. IF you don't understand why they left. You can never understand how to get them back.

Apologies for the ramble. Again outstanding post and you summed up the spirit of many hardcore hoops fan with your post.

I strongly believe this is the main reason Live 10 wasn't a success on the selling report. Your reputation proceeds you, and since EA reputation with it's basketball titles have been on a down slide people lost faith in there game thus NBA Live 10 which was the best they produced on next gen so far...took a huge hit in sells, so your not alone in this thinking Czar.

[noshun]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Live 07- Part 2 of the 3 year plan? Nope, complete reboot. An absolutely anomaly of a basketball game. But they rebooted with the new technology, procedural awareness. This was huge at EA. Showing the likes of coverboy Tracy McGrady following a ball on the screen, while chewing gum. EA was proud of themselves with this game. Foot planting technology. This is the wave of the future EA touted. Showed T-Mac in the practice gym planting his feet, shooting shots. This was the extent of the gameplay that was shown before release, because the product was abysmal.

Live 07 wasnt a complete reboot. It was using the ai94 system code(which it was called), which is from the Genesis days for Live 95. How do I know this, well a friend and I decompiled this game comparing it to other Lives and found the same code line for line in this game. (We both attended DigiPen, game design school.)

Its the whole reason I sent EAC CEO at the time a email, along with members of the dev staff: Matt, Nate, and Brent. Only people on these forums that knew about it were, DaCzar, Marcus Stephenson, luvmist, Pared, 23, and a few others. I still have that email and the reply back. Hehe.

Edit I also want to say that I personally QA Live 07/08 for EA. When I was doing 07, I keep letting my test lead know about how crappy the game was, and he agreed with me. I told him plenty of times about how I hope this doesnt end up as retail, sure enough it did. With Live 08, me and my boy VMC Ryan used to go back and forth in Live 08, when we did QA. I always hated the Skittles colored hotspots chart of the court.

07 was when I gave up on EA games from a 1st hand experience, and then 08 just cemented that. I havent really cared about theire games since Ive have seen how they code etc... Ill still play them from time to time as I love the NBA, but EA just doesnt really care about the consumer. Wishlist are virtually ignored.

[Mintsa]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Great post WTF !

That pretty much damn near sums things up with Live for the Past 5 years on next gen.

I do agree with you 100%...but I will not judge Elite yet (yes we've seen vids and so on) but I want to at least give the demo a try before I right it off (and yes I know that's not the point you trying to make...LOL).

Anyways, again...great write up.

[HustlinOwl]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

And this is another point that I wasn't going to bring up, but since you throw it out there, I'll touch base on it a little bit as well.

EA was promoting and interacting with the NCAA Basketball board like crazy before release. Getting everyone hyped up, and this is the 2nd year of a 3 year plan...

Post release, guys start experiencing some crazy freezeups and glitches. The game unplayable to most. EA, come and save us.... let us know what you're doing to fix these problems.

EA?....... EA?.... crickets.

Guys paid good money for a game that was not playable, and not even so much as a response. A few months later we find that the plug has been pulled, no more NCAA basketball. EA has your money, they don't need to support the product after all is said and done. Why take resources away from Elite on those people who already paid for your product? We need to create some new buzzwords that will convince people that Elite is the title to buy. That will make people forget about NCAA's problems. Right? Wrong.

Thanks for reading Hustlin

Thank you, seems like I'm the minority out here when it comes to this issue. Thus me no longer supporting any other EA titles.

[BaselineBakes]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Live 10's failure to sell well IMHO had virtually nothing to do with the quality of that game. It was the result of the gamer's distaste for their entire next gen product line.

Great statement.

[JWiLL02]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

I really appreciate everything rEAnimator has done on the board this year, he's been phenomenal with addressing questions, but that quote from the OP really bothers me.

He's essentially saying "Why would you have an issue dishing out $70 for Elite 11, when Elite 13 will be a great game?" Do I really need to answer that?

It doesn't help EA's cause that their competitor doesn't seem to be aiming for just "the best basketball game on the market" since they already have that, it looks like they're making a run at "the best sports game of all time".

So what do the execs over at EA decide to do when this becomes their worst sales year ever? Live 10 was met with some pretty well deserved hype and it still didn't translate to sales. Elite has been received with more scrutiny than any basketball game in recent memory thus far, what's to stop them from completely ditching the plan again?

I still don't like the name change either. Sure, the "Live" series has seen some significant bumps in recent years, but it still brings back great memories for most of us. Just another way to alienate their die hards, it seems.

I'm sure I'll give the demo a few dozen play throughs, but at this point I just see no reason why this would be my ball game of choice this year (and I didn't touch 2k10 before it was patched, Live 10 was in my 360 for a solid 2 months).

[WTF]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Amen WTF.

You've illustrated just how impatient and confused EA really are. They don't seem to know when they're onto a good thing and they hit the panic button before giving a plan a chance to be realised.

EA's reluctance to really listen to the basketball fans and attempts to win over the casual gamer is what's left their basketball franchise in the precarious position it's now in. They just don't seem to get it.

Initially I was on board with this new focus on more control and "real time physics" but then I saw the gameplay videos...
This new physics system didn't look very "real" to me.

It'll be interesting to see if EA keep their word for once and actually carry out this new 3 year plan.

Excellent post. I agree completely, and that's what I'm trying to parlay to those at EA.

Brillaint Post WTF. Sums it up beautifully. EA markets their games as if there past was unknown. There is very little trust between longtime EA basketball fan's and EA's hoop titles. With all the turnover they have I don't think they fully understand how much their past effects hoop gamer sentiments Today.

Live 10's failure to sell well IMHO had virtually nothing to do with the quality of that game. It was the result of the gamer's distaste for their entire next gen product line.

If we match up the marketing videos and press with actual footage of those games you would see a grand difference between what they touted and what we received.

I mentioned in an earlier post about them definitely attracting new buyers with the Fame of Littman but those new fans are not the base of support this franchise has enjoyed over the years.

When guys like shadows and Pasta are not really feeling what your doing your losing you last line of support. What you gain in return I don't believe will garner long time success for your series.

The gamer crowd will move onto the next game shortly after launch. They are not throwing their own personally sponsored launch parties and making up flyers and videos and rosters keeping your game alive and others interested.

Selling a basketball game to me is much different than selling to the other audiences. I don't think people are getting that aspect when I talk about The sport I love is not able to be compared with those other sports.

Much of that has to do with the History of the 2 game companies still left developing hoop games and what DROVE most of live's fans into the hands of 2k. IF you don't understand why they left. You can never understand how to get them back.

Apologies for the ramble. Again outstanding post and you summed up the spirit of many hardcore hoops fan with your post.

No need to apologize for any ramble brotha. When da Czar stops by WT's thread, it's an honor. Ramble away man. But I knew we'd be seeing eye to eye on this, from the moment the first Elite info dropped.

EA's sales are poor due to the fact that they've turned so many people off by their practices on next gen consoles.

Not that they'll even notice, but they'll be one less sale this year as well.

Man WTF excellent post! Very well put together and I believe you hit the nail straight on the head perfectly with everything you said I'm not sure why they decide to change directions every 1 or 2 years into the Live series cycle on Next Gen. Last Gen they always built upon there foundations and every year would get better and better but that vision or way of development has seemed to be lost in the shuffle somewhere because Live seemed to change just about every year with things being scrapped and something else completely taking over in place of what was working. Live 10 as many people believed was one year or so away from getting EA back on track, then what they do then change direction again and as history has shown the last 5 titles on Next Gen every time they do this it hasn't translated to anything good.




I strongly believe this is the main reason Live 10 wasn't a success on the selling report. Your reputation proceeds you, and since EA reputation with it's basketball titles have been on a down slide people lost faith in there game thus NBA Live 10 which was the best they produced on next gen so far...took a huge hit in sells, so your not alone in this thinking Czar.

Thanks man. Very nice points you bring as well. Always good to have a well thought out discussion.

Live 07 wasnt a complete reboot. It was using the ai94 system code(which it was called), which is from the Genesis days for Live 95. How do I know this, well a friend and I decompiled this game comparing it to other Lives and found the same code line for line in this game. (We both attended DigiPen, game design school.)

Its the whole reason I sent EAC CEO at the time a email, along with members of the dev staff: Matt, Nate, and Brent. Only people on these forums that knew about it were, DaCzar, Marcus Stephenson, luvmist, Pared, 23, and a few others. I still have that email and the reply back. Hehe.

Well, not reboot completely, it has parts of a prior game... Just not Live 06. That's absolutely pathetic in all rights. Live 95? Wow

Great post WTF !

That pretty much damn near sums things up with Live for the Past 5 years on next gen.

I do agree with you 100%...but I will not judge Elite yet (yes we've seen vids and so on) but I want to at least give the demo a try before I right it off (and yes I know that's not the point you trying to make...LOL).

Anyways, again...great write up.

Whats up Minsta. One of the big Live 06 guys from back in the day. Good to see you throwing your 2 cents in here as well.

And yeah, that's not the point I'm making, I encourage those to try Elite's new game. I hope they get all the sales in the world from this, and maybe, just MAYBE, they'll stick beside their product and their blueprint, and eventually this will be a "finished" title. Not stripped of anything to be "implemented next year as this year we ran out of time".

Great post Minsta

Thank you, seems like I'm the minority out here when it comes to this issue. Thus me no longer supporting any other EA titles.

Nope, you're not alone. I have a big ole PM to 23 about this somewhere, but I won't post it. I was ranting that day no doubt. I didn't even buy NCAA Bball.. was getting ready to until I saw all of those guys just grasping for someone to help them. And no response from EA.

Not this year.

[shadowgrin]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

So what good is building on an engine, when you take a step forward each year, but then remove features the following? It makes no sense.

This. Spot on. It's the EA way as I calls it.

Though I still have faith that EA will deliver with their promises. Like the way I'm still waiting for NBA Live 2001 patch they promised for the PC.

Maybe after the 3 year plan they can finally bring back features long gone from the franchise like create-a-team, in-game-saves, custom stat tracking, etc....

[WTF]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

I really appreciate everything rEAnimator has done on the board this year, he's been phenomenal with addressing questions, but that quote from the OP really bothers me.

He's essentially saying "Why would you have an issue dishing out $70 for Elite 11, when Elite 13 will be a great game?" Do I really need to answer that?

It doesn't help EA's cause that their competitor doesn't seem to be aiming for just "the best basketball game on the market" since they already have that, it looks like they're making a run at "the best sports game of all time".

So what do the execs over at EA decide to do when this becomes their worst sales year ever? Live 10 was met with some pretty well deserved hype and it still didn't translate to sales. Elite has been received with more scrutiny than any basketball game in recent memory thus far, what's to stop them from completely ditching the plan again?

I still don't like the name change either. Sure, the "Live" series has seen some significant bumps in recent years, but it still brings back great memories for most of us. Just another way to alienate their die hards, it seems.

I'm sure I'll give the demo a few dozen play throughs, but at this point I just see no reason why this would be my ball game of choice this year (and I didn't touch 2k10 before it was patched, Live 10 was in my 360 for a solid 2 months).

No doubt, he and stepsix have been very active with the community on the product, but so was backflash and JabStep (I think was his name) on the NCAA Basketball forums. They were extremely active until post release, and then when the bickering came, they were gone.

I really hope that these two stay here and continue to bring support to the titles. Marcus was the one guy who constantly provided updates from EA, and for that, he gained a lot of respect. Seemed like he knew what was wanted from the forums too, and tried to parlay that to the dev team.

But that quote from him REALLY threw me off on this series. I'm not paying $70 for game 1 of a 3 game series. Maybe $20, $20, and then $30 for the final game, so $70 total... but there is no earthly way that I will get suckered into buying a game with a promise of next year.

I've done it for too long, and I want to show them that this is why they're constantly losing sales. Including another one this year.

[sportyguyfl31]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

[quote=WTF;2041570297]This whole things just reeks of NBA Live 07. No videos, no information really, just fluff and filler.

quote]

Nah NBA Live 07, was on of the most diabolical things EA has ever done.

That game was a Turkey, they knew it was a Turkey, and you didnt see or hear word boo from them until after release.

NBA Live 07 was one of the biggest atrocities to be commited on the sports gaming public.

I actually think this game is going to be pretty good.

I agree with the main point of your agreements.

It doesnt matter to me what direction they choose to take, just as long as they take one. That way, I can make a confident, informed choice.

Part of building brand loyalty is that the consumer has confidence in what they are going to get. Some bells and whistles may change and some tweaks may be made, but the core experience is familiar and something the consumer can rely on.

It's impossible to have thay when the consumer has the perception that the developers are struggling with what identity to give their product.

The one thing EA has to stop doing, is pretending that what they are bringing to us, is new and fresh.

The first thing that came to my mind was, "This looks a lot like NBA Live 2005."

Why? Because I LOVED NBA Live 2005.

IT had everything that I wanted in a game: Team specific coaching profiles, body contact in the paint, total control dribbling and in air shot adjustments, In game injuries, defensive adjustments by the CPU.

It was the 1st basketball I ever saw where the CPU adjusted to how you were playing.

They would start trapping your Iso's.

They played zone defense

Spot on substitution patterns.

We remember these games.

They were classics.

You cant insult my intelligence by taking those things away, reintroducing them in drips and drabs as "never before seen next gen features" and think that I wont notice.

[23]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Im guessing you missed the whole Inside Drive movement then because their AI puts to shame almost any game made to date

That said, if this demo doesnt work for the masses then ouch

In similar ways some things are done in a Live 07 ish way.. No blogs, not 5 on 5 video, no sizzle videos until the vids from Venice came out.

Those kinds of things dont exactly boost confidence in the people who pretty much got burned on what the OP just explained.

[noshun]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

In similar ways some things are done in a Live 07 ish way.. No blogs, not 5 on 5 video, no sizzle videos until the vids from Venice came out.

Remember when I mentioned to you a few weeks ago how this had a Live 07 feel to it... with how things are being done.

[23]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Well Live 07 was much worse. They didnt have a demo, they didnt let anyone review til after release, no previews... no info, and 1 damage control video showing raja bell shooting a 3 after something someone did triggered the response.

That was the year alot of NBA Live fans jumped ship

..but anyhow, I guess this already kinda highlights that in some respect.

[convince]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Great post WTF, couldn't agree more with your statements. Too bad that as basketball gamers we make a very small portion of the gaming market. And like i mention before in another thread, with the "pick up and play" aspect of gameplay they are trying to reach, their main goals is to pull in the casual gamers. Larger portion = greater profits and hopefully the brand "EA" will keep the vets around at least until year 2 of 3.