A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

[donkey33]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Super post Will.

I respect the fact that a massive amount of work may have gone into this game and even next years game but until it becomes a complete product, my coin will stay in my pocket and I suppose I even find it disrespectful of game companies to have full priced games when they know the product is not complete.

My every day job consists of me working hard but if the end result is not up to scratch, I either don't get paid or get paid what it's worth and that's the reason I make sure my end product is a success. Basic business 101 really and no disrespect to ReAnimator/stepsix, etc, but suits need to relearn that.

[Admiral50]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Yep great post.

Probably a better location for my thoughts from a different thread...

I just don't get.

Live 10 was close to achieving something special with it's mo-capped animations and multi-player sequences, in that they actually were beginning to feel seemless and less scripted.

The amazing control just topped it off.

I think it's really wrong of a company to release what is essentially a test or work in progress, something that might be worth buying in a couple years and scrap possibly their best ever product in the series.

Sure, if you want to try a new direction then keep it behind closed doors and build it over a couple years, but in the meantime keep polishing the potential in Live 10.

I've almost never based my purchases on a bias or opinion of the company/devs (often jumping back and forth from Live to 2K over the years, based on the better game) but what EA is doing here is certainly isolating their fan base.

[shadowgrin]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

I believe in 3 year plans, but I believe you should be hush hush about them.

BAD IDEA TO MENTION THREE YEAR PLAN. Why go through the growing phase, then? Way to turn more people to other games.

No, it's a bad idea for them (Elite team) to go CIA on the community regarding their (3 year) plans.
It's good that the devs are interacting and sharing with the community especially for a long standing franchise like Live/Elite.

Point is most people felt that the previous game (Live 10) was a good foundation for future versions but instead EA decided to reboot with Elite.

This is where people started having that feeling of deja vu - starting with a new foundation for the game (again), sacrificing/scrapping something previously present in the game, and never letting the game/title fully develop because of all those restarts of their 'plan'.
It's a case of 'we've seen it happen before again and again, how will it be different now'?

The solution is not for them to be secretive, but to improve the title and stick with their plan and vision for it (whatever that is) and not reboot/restart just because it didn't meet expectations or the competition is kicking their behinds.

[lebron6_james]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

standing ovation for WTF!!! G.O.A.T post, man. it's like reading my mind.

[Flightwhite24]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Very good post WTF. No bs and straight to the point. Gotta say there is no way I would waste my $$$$ on EA's test project. This has to be the most wish/washy project of all-time. Just smoke-blowing ideas imo.

[mrprice33]

Where did this whole "incomplete game" meme come from? The only thing lacking in this game (assuming that the gameplay will be what they say it is) is animations. They are adding modes to the live 10 feature set. If all of this vitriol is due to no in game injuries I just don't understand it. While they are important, I would rather they not be in than to not be done right. It's like backbreaker. They want to do injuries in a different way, so they elected to keep them out of the first game. I can understand that. Tossing in random injuries just for the sake of having them is worse to me than not having them at all.

If it's not just the injuries, then again I'm not sure where this all makes sense. They aren't rebooting the series from a feature standpoint, and what happens if you prefer the new gameplay? Are you still mad?

[WTF]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

I believe in 3 year plans, but I believe you should be hush hush about them. The automatic conclusion is that year one isn't what year three will be but we are to trust that the game is on its way. And that is enough merit for a purchase? We are buying the game in good faith?

When EA renamed this title to Elite, when they started talking about the 3 year plan and the introduction of a new staff, it was an admission that all previous next-gen titles were so bad that those things had to happen. But the game, as it has been represented in recent videos, just doesn't live up to all of that.

I am still willing to be patient and anticipate good things from the changes EA has made, and I don't want to dismiss it entirely, but the game in its current form just doesn't hold well.

Exactly. Good post Dave. This is a problem. I don't want to purchase a game on the merit of "it will be good" and it will be everything we want in 3 yrs. The reason I have a problem paying for it, is because we've been through the 3 yr process how many times since the new gen consoles have been out? And we've never made it to that 3rd year. So benefit of the doubt goes out the window.

I'm probably in the extreme minority of people in this thread that haven't purchased a next-gen copy of NBA Live, but I just want to say great post WTF. Also great post by the Czar.

Despite the fact I haven't bought Live since 06 on PS2 (which I traded in quickly), I had been a hardcore NBA Live gamer for a long time. I usually had both basketball games, Live on PC and 2k on dreamcast or playstation 2. 2k had some very bad years so I was always happy to go to a fully patchable PC version of Live. We could cover up a lot of the issues that came with the game through global edits via spreadsheet and even managed how to alter some animations through the aiact.

To me it's a simple concept. The reason why I got sold on 2k was because it looked like basketball. I have no idea what happened between 2k6 and 2k7 but look at the difference in dunk animations. Whatever change they made in mo-cap was huge, from then on everything looked amazing. It just flat out looked like basketball. Why do I want to play a game that looks terrible but the producers say it has top notch control over a game that looks like basketball?

The great irony to me is that 2k caught heat for using the same game engine it's been using since last gen on the first couple releases, but since then everybody's shut up. EA comes out with a new engine which was supposed to drastically improve the game in the future but now they're permanently stuck playing catch-up.

Thanks Ruff... Good to see you still around. And your last paragraph is what's funny. 2k caught some major heat for using the same engine coming to the new consoles. But now look, they stuck with that decision, and are making stellar games, with all of the "improvements" that they have implemented for the past 5 years.

They didn't implement the shot stick, and then turn around and scrap it 2 yrs down the road. They have revamped it, but it's all about growing on what they've got. Excellent post

i got a three year plan for elite as well, let me pay $20 dollars for the game this year, $20 next year, and the remaining $20+ tax the 3rd year. Therefore, i will have the dreamed completed process or product and they will have the complete payment of $65 dollars.

Having a long-term plan is a good thing... every game should continue to develop, and 'starting over' every three years isn't a bad thing if it keeps the product fresh. Unfortunately, producing a bad game and making an excuse is not part of it.

A bad game is a bad game, period, it has nothing to do with a plan. A raw game, well, that's different. You guys should appreciate it if Elite is really a raw version of something better. I thought 09 was a raw version of what Live should become, but I guess not. Live 09 and 10 were by far the best Lives ever...

But one of the keys to having a three year plan is making progress with each step. Then, you can say "Just wait til next years game if you liked this one."

It's kind of like trying to get girls... you gotta be at least decent with a plan for the future. Nobody wants someone who is stagnant, period, but nobody wants someone whose greatest trait is something that will or could happen in three years.

BAD IDEA TO MENTION THREE YEAR PLAN. Why go through the growing phase, then? Way to turn more people to other games.

-Smak

That bolded part is what has completely ruined this company for me. There is nothing wrong with having a 3 yr plan at all. I commend a company for having these set in place, and working to achieving a stellar title. But with this company in general, as seen by my post, has never gotten to their 3 yr finished product.

Live 09 was a good title... Grown upon and improved by Live 10, which was probably the best Live title by far. It was needing some polishing, and needed fundamental things like In game injuries, but man, it was almost there. It was the one that could have been. But what happens? A new direction. Scrapped. Excellent post

Super post Will.

I respect the fact that a massive amount of work may have gone into this game and even next years game but until it becomes a complete product, my coin will stay in my pocket and I suppose I even find it disrespectful of game companies to have full priced games when they know the product is not complete.

My every day job consists of me working hard but if the end result is not up to scratch, I either don't get paid or get paid what it's worth and that's the reason I make sure my end product is a success. Basic business 101 really and no disrespect to ReAnimator/stepsix, etc, but suits need to relearn that.

Excellent post donkey, you're another poster that has been buying this stuff since new gen consoles came out. Every year you and I talk about what needs to be done to get "their". And what happens? We get so close, and it's rebooted and going a new direction.

Great post my friend.

Yep great post.

Probably a better location for my thoughts from a different thread...

I just don't get.

Live 10 was close to achieving something special with it's mo-capped animations and multi-player sequences, in that they actually were beginning to feel seemless and less scripted.

The amazing control just topped it off.

I think it's really wrong of a company to release what is essentially a test or work in progress, something that might be worth buying in a couple years and scrap possibly their best ever product in the series.

Sure, if you want to try a new direction then keep it behind closed doors and build it over a couple years, but in the meantime keep polishing the potential in Live 10.

I've almost never based my purchases on a bias or opinion of the company/devs (often jumping back and forth from Live to 2K over the years, based on the better game) but what EA is doing here is certainly isolating their fan base.

Without a doubt, always one of the best posters here. It's kind of funny to see all of the guys who have been here since 2002-2003 chiming in this post, all having the same viewpoints. It was the "need" of finding a SIM title that brought us to OS around the same time, and we all find us here in the same boat.

Thanks for chiming in Admiral.

No, it's a bad idea for them (Elite team) to go CIA on the community regarding their (3 year) plans.
It's good that the devs are interacting and sharing with the community especially for a long standing franchise like Live/Elite.

Point is most people felt that the previous game (Live 10) was a good foundation for future versions but instead EA decided to reboot with Elite.

This is where people started having that feeling of deja vu - starting with a new foundation for the game (again), sacrificing/scrapping something previously present in the game, and never letting the game/title fully develop because of all those restarts of their 'plan'.
It's a case of 'we've seen it happen before again and again, how will it be different now'?

The solution is not for them to be secretive, but to improve the title and stick with their plan and vision for it (whatever that is) and not reboot/restart just because it didn't meet expectations or the competition is kicking their behinds.

Yes, Live 10 did not need a reboot. Did not need a new name, did not need an overhaul, definitely did not need a new direction. It needed tweaking, a little TLC and a little polishing, and it was well on it's way to get to where it should have been by now. Excellent post. We've seen it happen before, how will it be different now. Excellent quote.

standing ovation for WTF!!! G.O.A.T post, man. it's like reading my mind.

Thanks LBJ6. Enjoy your talents in south beach. haha.

Very good post WTF. No bs and straight to the point. Gotta say there is no way I would waste my $$$$ on EA's test project. This has to be the most wish/washy project of all-time. Just smoke-blowing ideas imo.

Thanks Flight. I don't want to deter anyone from buying Elite, and definitely not trying the demo. I encourage those who want to, to do so. But I'm in the same boat you are. No thanks.

[WTF]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Where did this whole "incomplete game" meme come from? The only thing lacking in this game (assuming that the gameplay will be what they say it is) is animations. They are adding modes to the live 10 feature set. If all of this vitriol is due to no in game injuries I just don't understand it. While they are important, I would rather they not be in than to not be done right. It's like backbreaker. They want to do injuries in a different way, so they elected to keep them out of the first game. I can understand that. Tossing in random injuries just for the sake of having them is worse to me than not having them at all.

If it's not just the injuries, then again I'm not sure where this all makes sense. They aren't rebooting the series from a feature standpoint, and what happens if you prefer the new gameplay? Are you still mad?

I've quoted this part of it, because this is what I'm going to touch on. The fact is, while backbreaker didn't have them in, that's understandable and acceptable from a first year title. The fact is, this is not the first year for them not having in game injuries.

Last year it was the same thing. The animations are in, just didn't want to implement them incorrectly. They'll be here next year.

This was after Live 09, when they were building for the future, and will implement them next year.

Live 08, I'm almost positive that there were none either, but I can't be 100%.

Say what you will, but this is a big deal in basketball. Especially for those of us who don't SIM games, and instead play offline only, full 82 game seasons. Huge part of the game.

I won't speak for everyone, but I'm mad that when a title is the best that it's ever been, and so close to a solid title, that the company "moves another direction". If the gameplay is fun, then that's all fine and dandy. I'm happy for those who enjoy it. But I have bought into their "progress" too many times. Granted, like another poster said, it was on us to buy them... and it was. When a company tells me they have a solid plan for the future, I have a little faith in them. They work towards achieving that, I'll reward them with a purchase. We get so close to the title that we think we're "due", only to find out that they aren't going to complete that game, they're going another direction.

And that, in my mind, is not acceptable.

[donkey33]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Too right mate. I've seen you, Monk, Dre, etc, for years talking about this issue and it's a shame it has become an annual thing.

I just can't add much to your post. It was pretty much spot on. Bravo and I truly hope the people at EA can take this as constructive criticism (which it is) because even though we've spent time and money without much reward, it's being done because we want the product to eventually make it. No be a package of stage one titles or subpar productions.

Unfortunately for me this year, might be the straw that broke the camel's back.

[HoosierDaddy]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

This is only speculation on my end and what I think is good idea from the marketing at EA. While we were there, NBA Jam was only advertised as being on the Wii. I'm not sure if they had this idea to package Jam with Elite all along, but we asked multiple times if it would ever be available on 360/PS3, and the vibe I got was possibly in the future AFTER it was released on Wii. Like later next year. I'm not sure if they decided to do this because of the feedback Elite has gotten or if they just wanted to attract people to buy Elite and give it a shot based on it's new vision. Either way, paying $60 and getting 2 games is a pretty good deal. Jam alone is worth at least a $30 purchase, so Elite for $30 is a steal, IMHO.

I still stand by what I said in my blog and in previous posts... once you actually play Elite and FEEL the game, you'll really appreciate the type of control and satisfaction you get by your skills on the sticks. Then, and only then, will you see where EA is going with this title. I preach consistency though, I urge EA and its developers to stay on board with this title and not jump ship. If I were a developer, I'd make it a mission to ride this out and show us gamers how much they really care about putting this game back on top.

[23]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Hoosier, most people here dont care about NBA Jam... not at least in this thread, and it shouldnt even be a thought to try to use it to entice people to try the "sim part" of the package. Its really a big ole band aid to the people in this thread expressing why theyre done.

Honestly myself, Im not interested in NBA Jam, never was.

I've played Elite, and im telling you, its going to take more than feeling it to get these guys back on board. Thats not the problem at all, and it has been said numerous times already.. thats not the problem.

[mrprice33]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

I've quoted this part of it, because this is what I'm going to touch on. The fact is, while backbreaker didn't have them in, that's understandable and acceptable from a first year title. The fact is, this is not the first year for them not having in game injuries.

Last year it was the same thing. The animations are in, just didn't want to implement them incorrectly. They'll be here next year.

This was after Live 09, when they were building for the future, and will implement them next year.

Live 08, I'm almost positive that there were none either, but I can't be 100%.

Say what you will, but this is a big deal in basketball. Especially for those of us who don't SIM games, and instead play offline only, full 82 game seasons. Huge part of the game.

I won't speak for everyone, but I'm mad that when a title is the best that it's ever been, and so close to a solid title, that the company "moves another direction". If the gameplay is fun, then that's all fine and dandy. I'm happy for those who enjoy it. But I have bought into their "progress" too many times. Granted, like another poster said, it was on us to buy them... and it was. When a company tells me they have a solid plan for the future, I have a little faith in them. They work towards achieving that, I'll reward them with a purchase. We get so close to the title that we think we're "due", only to find out that they aren't going to complete that game, they're going another direction.

And that, in my mind, is not acceptable.

But what if this game is the logical conclusion of what they set out to do in Live 10? Live 10 was all about control, from things like layup solutions, to the dribbling mechanics, to the fadeaways/leaners, etc. All of them user-controlled. Now we appear to have an even better sense of control (especially over jumpshots) and they've removed the forced movement and actions that came along with the 2 man animations. That's better.

In fact, let's just go ahead and list the ways that Elite is better than Live 10. This is based on a combination of what we've seen, and what they've told us.

Gameplay
Better, more refined control. Shot accuracy determined by release and angle of stick.
Improved collision in the paint. No more canned two player animations that force defenders to commit fouls or move out of position and get locked onto another player. Collision animations now determined by angle, momentum, weight and height. Better physicality in the paint.
Improved steal mechanics. Hand now adjusts to the ball and actually makes contact in a steal. No two steal animations will look the same.
Improved blocking mechanics-see above
Improved rebounding. Rebounding no longer predetermined. Now determined by position and timing of jump. Ball is live during rebounds. Tips not predetermined. Limbs will track to the ball, the ball will not morph to the hands.
Unique dribble sequences recorded by real NBA players. No more canned size-up moves.
Getting past defenders no longer a product of size up dice rolls and animation selection.
More physicality on defense on the perimeter.
Improved post game-post pivots, easier shot selection using the right stick, better physicality on the post. strength and weight now determining factors of backing down in the post.
Defensive guessing-guess the direction a ballhandler will go, could slip/get blocking foul if wrong, or draw charge/impede progress if correct.

Features
Be a legend mode
EABL-or whatever the acronym is. Teams of online players facing each other, different from Live Run last year

This game has gone backwards?

[da ThRONe]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

Hoosier, most people here dont care about NBA Jam... not at least in this thread, and it shouldnt even be a thought to try to use it to entice people to try the "sim part" of the package. Its really a big ole band aid to the people in this thread expressing why theyre done.

Honestly myself, Im not interested in NBA Jam, never was.

I've played Elite, and im telling you, its going to take more than feeling it to get these guys back on board. Thats not the problem at all, and it has been said numerous times already.. thats not the problem.

Agreed. As a sim player I'm almost offended that there trying pawn NBA Jams off on me to buy Elite. If this game can't stand on it's own then I wont buy it.

[WTF]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

But what if this game is the logical conclusion of what they set out to do in Live 10? Live 10 was all about control, from things like layup solutions, to the dribbling mechanics, to the fadeaways/leaners, etc. All of them user-controlled. Now we appear to have an even better sense of control (especially over jumpshots) and they've removed the forced movement and actions that came along with the 2 man animations. That's better.

In fact, let's just go ahead and list the ways that Elite is better than Live 10. This is based on a combination of what we've seen, and what they've told us.

Gameplay
Better, more refined control. Shot accuracy determined by release and angle of stick.
Improved collision in the paint. No more canned two player animations that force defenders to commit fouls or move out of position and get locked onto another player. Collision animations now determined by angle, momentum, weight and height. Better physicality in the paint.
Improved steal mechanics. Hand now adjusts to the ball and actually makes contact in a steal. No two steal animations will look the same.
Improved blocking mechanics-see above
Improved rebounding. Rebounding no longer predetermined. Now determined by position and timing of jump. Ball is live during rebounds. Tips not predetermined. Limbs will track to the ball, the ball will not morph to the hands.
Unique dribble sequences recorded by real NBA players. No more canned size-up moves.
Getting past defenders no longer a product of size up dice rolls and animation selection.
More physicality on defense on the perimeter.
Improved post game-post pivots, easier shot selection using the right stick, better physicality on the post. strength and weight now determining factors of backing down in the post.
Defensive guessing-guess the direction a ballhandler will go, could slip/get blocking foul if wrong, or draw charge/impede progress if correct.

Features
Be a legend mode
EABL-or whatever the acronym is. Teams of online players facing each other, different from Live Run last year

This game has gone backwards?

I never said the game has gone backwards in any capacity. I'm saying that I PERSONALLY WILL NOT buy a game that has the promise of next year. In game injuries may not sound as bad to some of you... but when it's been "Oh, we ran out of time, but it'll be there next year." and "Oh, the animations are implemented and are in the game, but we wanted to get them accurately represented so they were omitted for this game..." And my favorite is this years "We didn't have time to put them in, and frankly, I'm surprised that people are so upset that they aren't in... " I mean we have new modes, that should make up for the fact that key elements of basketball are missing, right? WRONG.

But when I wait and wait and wait for that 3 year product to come to fruition for 5-6 years, and it never makes it to my console, then I have a major problem. Am I wrong to expect to get the game that we've been led to believe would be here by now?

And Wang leaves the team, and the team makes the statement that they're going a different direction? How is that building on what's there? It's apparent that by "going a different direction", it's not just a "build upon Live 10" deal. Come on canes.

And showing me that we have new modes doesn't do anything for me. I could care less about new modes, as long as a great basketball game is played on the floor, represented in every facet of the game.

Even watching videos, the game looks unbearable. Doesn't even look like Live 10. It's a different game, with a different feel. If that's what makes people happy, then more power to them. Like I said, I wish them the best of luck with the title, but in order to get me, and from the looks of it, several of the hardcore bball guys back on board, then they have a lot of work to do.

Not PR spinning stuff. Not scrapping ideas and going different directions, but sticking with a plan, and fulfilling that plan. I'm still waiting for NBA Live 11... the title that should have been. Live 10 with a few tweaks, animation tweaks, in game injuries. A SOLID basketball title, that I don't have to wait 3 years to have all of the things that should be in a bball title.

I could care less about the fluff and filler, new modes. Truth be told, I have spent probably a total of 15-20 hrs on MyPlayer and the likes. It's just not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for that hardcore basketball sim that represents accurately what I'm seeing on tv.

And they were almost there.

[HoosierDaddy]

Re: A 3 Year Plan (LONG read)

I'm as sim as most of you are, but I'm also an avid gamer and have been for over 20 years. NBA Jam is awesome. LOL!

Back on topic though, I'm just as disappointed with the animations and other aspects of the game as all of you are, too, if you couldn't tell by my flaws videos that I've been posting. I'm hoping these videos, as well as the feedback posted on forums, will give them insight on what we really want from here going forward. Because of the event we attended and the ideas that were tossed around by the developers and their vision, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt regarding where this game is now and where it will be next year and the following year. With that being said, if they decide to scrap this idea and the same crew isn't working on the title next year, it will be the last straw for me.