Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

Yea I would be a fool to think CB or Pau's #'s will look anywhere near Durants. That wasn't my point in all of this

KD isn't playing with top ten talent on his squad. The reason he's on his team is because two years ago, the Sonics were one of the worst teams in basketball. Not only were they bad in the first place, but they traded away their veteran talent for a youth movement.

I love Chauncey and Pau. Ya'll should know that. But the whole "putting up big numbers on a bad team" thing is a cop out. KD is more productive AND more efficient. If he were a better defender, he'd be a flat out better player with no discussion. As it is, do you think the Thunder would trade KD for Pau or Chauncey? If you were the Thunder GM, would you?

It's not fair to either party to compare a super talented young guy with a bright future to accomplished championship vets.

But I think KD will be an overall better player than both of those guys this year. He'll get the full attention of the defenses he play against, and will average a lot of points with great percentages despite that. He might even grab a rebound or two.

Yes. But why WHY did do they do that?

There's already in place a famed headcoach Brown/Jackson/Karl, and a multitude of talent.

Tayshaun Prince, Mehmet Okur, Rasheed Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Ben Wallace, Lindsey Hunter.

Kobe Bryant, Lamar Odom, Trevor Ariza, Andrew Bynum, Derek Fisher.

So, all of a sudden, Durant is going to turn into what (?) if he goes to a team poised for success? Jason Richardson?

What if it was Durant headed to San Ant instead of Richard Jefferson?? They'd be the hands down favorite right? That would basically rule out your above post right?

The issue is people are unwilling to think for themselves w/o the NBA proving it for them. I mean where were you when the AI trade went down? Thinking Detroit just screwed up, and now Chauncey was going to waste away in Denver w/ an overrated wing? Or that adding Gasol would give LA just enough to finally compete w/ Boston rather than lose in 5 (regardless of what actually happened w/ KG suffering an injury to end the C's hope for a repeat).

Exactly.

So because we are putting importance on winning and not stats we are now allowing the NBA/Media to think for us? Come on now, you have to have a better argument than that.

Those guys' proven record should be a factor, but KD is so much more productive, and is developing at such a fast rate that the benefits of playing alongside Carmelo and Kobe should be marginalized just a bit. Neither Chauncey nor Pau is a legit number 1 option. Kevin clearly is.

[DC]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

It's not fair to either party to compare a super talented young guy with a bright future to accomplished championship vets.

I never wanted to from the jump

[X*Cell]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

Those guys' proven record should be a factor, but KD is so much more productive, and is developing at such a fast rate that the benefits of playing alongside Carmelo and Kobe should be marginalized just a bit. Neither Chauncey nor Pau is a legit number 1 option. Kevin clearly is.

Precisely this.

[KG]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

Yes. But why WHY did do they do that?

There's already in place a famed headcoach Brown/Jackson/Karl, and a multitude of talent.

Tayshaun Prince, Mehmet Okur, Rasheed Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Ben Wallace, Lindsey Hunter.

Kobe Bryant, Lamar Odom, Trevor Ariza, Andrew Bynum, Derek Fisher.

So, all of a sudden, Durant is going to turn into what (?) if he goes to a team poised for success? Jason Richardson?

What if it was Durant headed to San Ant instead of Richard Jefferson?? They'd be the hands down favorite right? That would basically rule out your above post right?

The issue is people are unwilling to think for themselves w/o the NBA proving it for them. I mean where were you when the AI trade went down? Thinking Detroit just screwed up, and now Chauncey was going to waste away in Denver w/ an overrated wing? Or that adding Gasol would give LA just enough to finally compete w/ Boston rather than lose in 5 (regardless of what actually happened w/ KG suffering an injury to end the C's hope for a repeat).

I'm not going to speculate on "what if" scenarios. Gasol propelled the Lakers to the Finals and Chauncey helped the Nuggs reach the Conference Finals.

I love Chauncey and Pau. Ya'll should know that. But the whole "putting up big numbers on a bad team" thing is a cop out. KD is more productive AND more efficient. If he were a better defender, he'd be a flat out better player with no discussion. As it is, do you think the Thunder would trade KD for Pau or Chauncey? If you were the Thunder GM, would you?

It's not fair to either party to compare a super talented young guy with a bright future to accomplished championship vets.

But I think KD will be an overall better player than both of those guys this year. He'll get the full attention of the defenses he play against, and will average a lot of points with great percentages despite that. He might even grab a rebound or two.

Those guys' proven record should be a factor, but KD is so much more productive, and is developing at such a fast rate that the benefits of playing alongside Carmelo and Kobe should be marginalized just a bit. Neither Chauncey nor Pau is a legit number 1 option. Kevin clearly is.

At the end of the day isn't that what he is doing, putting up #'s on a bad team? I don't expect him to take his team to the promise land right away but he's efficiently put up #s on a bad team where he has been the focal point of the d since the Day 1. No one is doubting his potential but if I put on my Thunder GM hat why would I trade young for old? Am I getting an expiring contract, no. Am I getting the mising piece to a title contender, no. Even if I were the GM of the Lakers or Denver it would be hard to pull the trigger on the opposite end of the trade.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

The point is Billups and Pau are second fiddles. While KD is bordering on that big boss status.

If you take the most average team, which of the three would make the biggest impact and have the best chance to get the furthest?

Personally I would go Pau, Durant, Billups.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

In both Gasol and Chauncey's cases, they were not the only factors in their team's improvement. And in both cases, they were traded to playoff teams.

As far as "putting up numbers on a bad team". This is a tired old cliche' used to describe players who might not put those same numbers up on a good team. Someone who is getting all of the shots, so they are getting all of the points by default. This is clearly not the case with Durant. You should only bring that expression out if the true quality of the player is in doubt.

[ZB9]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

good list Ex

it will be fun to revisit once the season gets half way rollin

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

In both Gasol and Chauncey's cases, they were not the only factors in their team's improvement. And in both cases, they were traded to playoff teams.

As far as "putting up numbers on a bad team". This is a tired old cliche' used to describe players who might not put those same numbers up on a good team. Someone who is getting all of the shots, so they are getting all of the points by default. This is clearly not the case with Durant. You should only bring that expression out if the true quality of the player is in doubt.

Agreed. KD is putting up RIDICULOUS numbers without the benefit of another player (aside from Westbrook) who can actually create his own shot. And he's doing it efficiently from all over the floor while still rebounding well at the SF spot and handling the ball a lot of the time.

You can use the "big scorer on a bad team" argument for someone shooting badly overall and not being very efficient, yet is putting up 25 PPG (Philly AI for example), but I don't think that really fits for KD since he's carrying the load against the same level of competition like everyone else in the West and is efficient in doing so. I don't even really think that argument applies to Kevin Martin for the same reason -- dude would be deadly efficient on any team he played for, it doesn't matter that the Kings suck, he's still playing against the West teams and contributing big numbers without the benefit of others who can take attention away from him and open up the offense.

In some ways, being a big scorer on a bad team and being efficient while doing it is more impressive than someone like Melo doing it since he has other members of his team that are talented and can attract attention and open the floor for him. If you're Durant and everyone knows you're putting up 25 a night and don't have a lot of options to dish the ball to, you're having a rough night matched up against their best perimeter defender no matter what and being the franchise lynchpin, you have to perform well consistently for the team to have a chance in hell at winning That KD is putting up these numbers in that pressure-heavy situation at this age is just craziness.

[KG]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

How is it pressure heavy?

Teams know that KD can get 30 and the Thunder will still lose. I like KDs game. Been a fan since he was @ Montrose, but he hasn't played a "pressure-filled" game since UT. Being an elite scorer on a bad team compared to being one a good team is much different. Elite wing scorers on good teams face the best wing defender as well as an emphasis on team defense to contain them.

In my mind for KD to make that next jump he needs his team to make more than a 3 game improvement.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

Well I mean that literally he faces more pressure because he's the sole focus of the offense, but also because he has the success of the entire organization riding on his shoulders night in and night out -- if they don't perform, everything is on his shoulders. Even if outside observers say, "Ah well, the Thunder weren't supposed to win this year anyway", I'm 99% sure that same logic doesn't carry to KD himself, who is very competitive and is used to performing at a high level for successful teams and would still be putting the pressure on himself, warranted or not.. I mean damn, think of KG crying to John Thompson or T-Mac's tragedy-filled post-seasons -- these guys don't just shrug off team success because they're on a bad team or whatever, they almost always take it personally and put the blame on their shoulders.

And teams don't just let him go on the basis that nobody else can score, that's just not how basketball is. Yes, they might say, "if KD drops 40 but we shut down everyone else, we'll win"... but that doesn't translate to "let Kevin score 40 points, don't worry about defending him, they literally can't beat us no matter what he does".

The only time that "big scorer, bad team" argument is really applicable to me is if a guy is scoring inefficiently while being the main focus of the offense because it says something essential about his abilities. For someone like KD to score and play at this high of a level while being efficient also says something essential about his abilities, namely that he's a ****ing beast and would play (stats-wise) that well or better in basically any system with similar pacing.

[VDusen04]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

Yes. But why WHY did do they do that?

There's already in place a famed headcoach Brown/Jackson/Karl, and a multitude of talent.

Tayshaun Prince, Mehmet Okur, Rasheed Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Ben Wallace, Lindsey Hunter.

Kobe Bryant, Lamar Odom, Trevor Ariza, Andrew Bynum, Derek Fisher.

So, all of a sudden, Durant is going to turn into what (?) if he goes to a team poised for success? Jason Richardson?

What if it was Durant headed to San Ant instead of Richard Jefferson?? They'd be the hands down favorite right? That would basically rule out your above post right?

Well said. I've agreed with just about everything you've discussed in this thread. When doing the hypothetical player ranking thing, I think team success is often overrated when figuring out whom goes ahead of whom. To take it one step further, I do not believe a players' legacy should primarily be judged by whether they won a championship or not. This is not tennis nor golf. As such, the success one's team has is not entirely in a single players' hands, no matter how dominant that one player may be.

With all that said, I find Kevin Durant to be superior to Chauncey Billups but I'm not completely convinced he's better than Pau. Gasol is extremely skilled in the post and appears unwavered by any sort of defense that is presented. I was surprised at the number of difficult shots down low he was able to finish in the NBA playoffs this year. Still, it seems Kevin Durant may be on the verge of something extra special and as another poster said, this argument may be silly by the All-Star break this year.

Lastly, my first thought when I saw the original list was, where's this guy:

but once I took a closer look, I'm not sure which of those 25 I would switch out for ol' Memo. Though, some may argue that as a contributor to a championship winner, Okur may belong a couple of notches above the likes of Monta Ellis and others. However, I do not believe that to be the case. Still appreciate his contribution in Detroit though.

[X*Cell]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

I always forget Okur played for Detroit!

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

Okur reminds me of Troy Murphy. Puts up crazy stats but I don't consider them to be "elite".

[ProjectRipCity]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

What makes Roy definitively better than Melo?

Better 3pt shooter and is reliable on the line in late game situations. He runs the team better...As Carmello has an assist more per game...I think Brandon is a better passer as well. While Mello is good at backing people up and finishing strong inside...Brandon is a bit more crafty. So basically Carmello is a big beast and Brandon is a quick smooth 2 guard. I think both players are great I would have to go with Brandon. As divisional rivals I probably seen 20 games of Mello...So you can take that with a grain of salt. If Brandon Roy did not have the IQ of a 34 year old vet in a 24 year old body..Mello would of got my vote in 4th.

D Wade is above those players slightly though...Given the team he plays on.

[rockchisler]

Re: Top 25 Players out West-- Is KD top 12?

When Kobe retires it will be Lebron James and Kevin Durant as the top 2 players in the league....