The LeBron James Thread

**Pared** · 03-12-2011, 01:34 PM

Re: The LeBron James Thread

That's it - Closed.

Just kidding. Try about 30 posts back.

**Xs and Os** · 03-12-2011, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Pared

I agree with the off-ball comment. However, on the flip side of that argument he is playing with better and better talent and their numbers HAVE to take a dip one way or another - these are individual stars on .500 teams where they dominated the ball as well.

It would be the equivalent of Jordan, Johnson and Bird all being on the same team and not expecting 2 of the 3's numbers to dip.

Like I said, it's not just the numbers. They aren't more efficient, nor are they excelling in a specialist role. This is not the Boston effect. People are stifled and limited playing with Lebron because he forces them into codependence. It'll be a combination if coaching, a mental adjustment and expanding his game that fixes this.

**The 24th Letter** · 03-12-2011, 03:09 PM

Re: The LeBron James Thread

so no one in the role of main scorer makes their teamates better?

**Pared** · 03-12-2011, 03:16 PM

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Originally posted by Xs and Os

Like I said, it's not just the numbers. They aren't more efficient, nor are they excelling in a specialist role. This is not the Boston effect.

But you CAN place part of the blame on Spoelstra for this, right?

**Xs and Os** · 03-12-2011, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Pared

But you CAN place part of the blame on Spoelstra for this, right?

My knee jerk answer is to say yes, but I'd have to see what he's drawing up vs what Lebron us running. I really think it's a case of something's gotta give. He can have the ball at the end but he's gotta make adjustments. With wade and bosh on the team, I think it's best for him to work off the ball and take advantage if motion, spacing and the weak side.

Originally posted by The 24th Letter

so no one in the role of main scorer makes their teamates better?

Post scorers, jumpshooters and players who receive the ball in the paint have an easier time because of where the double team comes from. There are other aspects but I won't get into it for the sake of brevity. Lebron is a dribble drive player right now. If that's the only way you play and you're not a great shooter, I think you have to make some adjustments to be one of those guys that elevates his teammates.

**PrettyT11** · 03-12-2011, 03:46 PM

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Originally posted by Xs and Os

Like I said, it's not just the numbers. They aren't more efficient, nor are they excelling in a specialist role.

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Let's just take the two guys who have been talked about the most as his teammates with the Cavs Jamison and Mo. Jamison saw his FG%, TS%, and eFG% all go up when he joined the Cavs. Now with LeBron gone they have all went down. Yes his scoring is up because he is taking more shots but he is not scoring as efficently.

Let's look at Mo. Before playing with LeBron he at best around 38 percent from 3. With LeBron he jumped to near the top of the league at 44 and 43 percent. Also like Jamison his TS% and eFG% went up. This year with no LeBron his shooting percentages dropped to his lowest numbers since his rookie year. So while their PPG might have stayed the same or dropped their effeciency did go up playing with LeBron.

We can even take it a step further and look at Hickson, Gibson, and Parker. All have taken major drops in their FG% this year and Gibson and Parker's 3 point percentage has dropped. None of those guys are anywhere close to as effecient as they was with LeBron. I just don't see how anybody can say those guys are more effecient without LeBron. If that was the case then they wouldn't have anywhere close to they record they have.

**mKoz26** · 03-12-2011, 03:51 PM

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Originally posted by PrettyT11

I'm sorry but this is just not true. Let's just take the two guys who have been talked about the most as his teammates with the Cavs Jamison and Mo. Jamison saw his FG%, TS%, and eFG% all go up when he joined the Cavs. Now with LeBron gone they have all went down. Yes his scoring is up because he is taking more shots but he is not scoring as efficently.

Let's look at Mo. Before playing with LeBron he at best around 38 percent from 3. With LeBron he jumped to near the top of the league at 44 and 43 percent. Also like Jamison his TS% and eFG% went up. This year with no LeBron his shooting percentages dropped to his lowest numbers since his rookie year. So while their PPG might have stayed the same or dropped their effeciency did go up playing with LeBron.

We can even take it a step further and look at Hickson, Gibson, and Parker. All have taken major drops in their FG% this year and Gibson and Parker's 3 point percentage has dropped. None of those guys are anywhere close to as effecient as they was with LeBron. I just don't see how anybody can say those guys are more effecient without LeBron. If that was the case then they wouldn't have anywhere close to they record they have.

It's not that the players are better or more efficient with LeBron, it's that they get better looks.

There are guys who make people around them better, but that's a leadership thing and a basketball knowledge thing rather than an assist thing. I don't believe LeBron makes anyone better. He just gets them better shots by drawing attention to himself on the offensive end.

**The 24th Letter** · 03-12-2011, 03:58 PM

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Getting your teamates open shots/ to their spots is not something just any player can do man lol

Are we even having this convo if its not LeBron? He clearly raised his teamates worth in Cleveland....

**PrettyT11** · 03-12-2011, 04:02 PM

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Originally posted by mKoz26

It's not that the players are better or more efficient with LeBron, it's that they get better looks.

There are guys who make people around them better, but that's a leadership thing and a basketball knowledge thing rather than an assist thing. I don't believe LeBron makes anyone better. He just gets them better shots by drawing attention to himself on the offensive end.

I was talking in reference to the guy saying he didn't make those guys more effecient but let's ask it this way. So if was getting guys better shots and they was making them at a higher percentage than before and after him isn't that making them better?? It sure was without question getting them better results in the win column.

**Xs and Os** · 03-12-2011, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by The 24th Letter

Getting your teamates open shots/ to their spots is not something just any player can do man lol

Are we even having this convo if its not LeBron? He clearly raised his teamates worth in Cleveland....

We can agree to disagree. Getting someone open standstill set shots doesn't make them better, IMO. Making a player better allows them to be the best versions of their self. Lebron transforms everyone around him into role players. I don't think this is an issue of people singling Lebron out because they saw some if the same patterns in CLE emerge in MIA. Also the same problems: people standing around watching Lebron dribble at the end if games hoping to get a call. So if Jamison used to be this creative mismatch but then turns into a spot up shooter and Mo and Bosh do the same thing, it's fair to ask if Lebron is the source.

The first year with Mo in Cleveland, they ran a nice offense. Then they hit Orlando and the LeIso took over. It has gotten worse ever since and having such a similar teammate in Wade makes it very tricky for the coaches and other players in the rotation.

**ex carrabba fan** · 03-12-2011, 04:17 PM

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Originally posted by mKoz26

It's not that the players are better or more efficient with LeBron, it's that they get better looks.

There are guys who make people around them better, but that's a leadership thing and a basketball knowledge thing rather than an assist thing. I don't believe LeBron makes anyone better. He just gets them better shots by drawing attention to himself on the offensive end.

Mind, blown.

All I can say is... the guy regarded as the best player in the world today... I want to hear what you naysayers think about how he makes his teammates better.

**TheShizNo1** · 03-12-2011, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by ex carrabba fan

Mind, blown.

All I can say is... the guy regarded as the best player in the world today... I want to hear what you naysayers think about how he makes his teammates better.

You and LBJ related?

**mKoz26** · 03-12-2011, 04:20 PM

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Originally posted by ex carrabba fan

Mind, blown.

All I can say is... the guy regarded as the best player in the world today... I want to hear what you naysayers think about how he makes his teammates better.

FWIW I think LeBron is far and away the best player in the league.

I just don't think he actually makes anybody better. Clearly our definitions of "making people better" are different, but that doesn't mean you have to scoff at my comment like it's completely illogical.

Creating offense for teammates <> making them better players.

**mKoz26** · 03-12-2011, 04:23 PM

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Originally posted by PrettyT11

I was talking in reference to the guy saying he didn't make those guys more effecient but let's ask it this way. So if was getting guys better shots and they was making them at a higher percentage than before and after him isn't that making them better?? It sure was without question getting them better results in the win column.

They weren't making the same shots at a higher percentage, they were making better shots at the same percentage they would have should they have gotten so many of them before.

(sorry for the wordiness but I'm having trouble articulating this point)

**The 24th Letter** · 03-12-2011, 04:27 PM

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Thats the thing though...

JJ, Mo and Gibson had their best seasons all with LeBron. Your saying those three players were being held BACK by LeBron?...LOL. Funny thing is, they all had a chance to prove it this year...and it didnt work out so well.

I think your oversimplifying it a bit...getting the ball to those open players is not something just any player can do...your saying Joe Johnson could open up the floor and move the ball to open players like LeBron did? You call it "standing still" I call it spacing the floor...

When you join a team, or get new pieces, your role shifts and changes....

AK47 was an all star and the main scorer before Deron came to Utah....now hes a role player (not at his "best")...so Deron doesnt make his teamates better?

There is an abundance of examples like that...

Its not about your personal best, its how you best fit on the team...sure everyone around Bron in CLeveland was a role player, what else could they be? lol

The LeBron James Thread

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