The LeBron James Thread

[BlueNGold]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

34% of people on this poll are Cleveland fans. To think he's not top 25 is laughable, quite honestly.

Right now he is easy top 10. Always been a dynamic scorer, but in this years playoffs more people are seeing his dominant defense, and he is now developing strong clutch play, which he didnt have before.

I'm gonna go run some stats against other top 10s and tell you who he's ahead of.

Yeah, that's a great way to look at.

Anyways, ring or not, he'll be one of the all-time greats and a HOFer. Which "Top whatever" he falls under doesn't matter.

[Bumi]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

34% of people on this poll are Cleveland fans. To think he's not top 25 is laughable, quite honestly.

Right now he is easy top 10. Always been a dynamic scorer, but in this years playoffs more people are seeing his dominant defense, and he is now developing strong clutch play, which he didnt have before.

I'm gonna go run some stats against other top 10s and tell you who he's ahead of.

Top 10 is pretty laughable.

[KSUowls]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

I find it kind of laughable that there are some people who think there are 25 or more players who have been better than him. That being said though, it's way to early to start really ranking him. I believe he's in just his 8th year in the league. Using MJ as a benchmark, MJ was just starting his run of dominance (aka rings) that has been the fuel for everyone who has ever said MJ is the greatest player ever. We need to give it a few years (like at least until he is on the other side of 30 and his window is closing instead of just getting started) before we start trying to rank him against others who have an entire careers resume.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

In case I'm not the only one, the good parts of this thread begin on Page 420 and some folks were on the money with their predictions(not for the Heat though). Not that it was hard to predict anyway...

(currently on page 480 lol )

[Bumi]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

I find it kind of laughable that there are some people who think there are 25 or more players who have been better than him. That being said though, it's way to early to start really ranking him. I believe he's in just his 8th year in the league. Using MJ as a benchmark, MJ was just starting his run of dominance (aka rings) that has been the fuel for everyone who has ever said MJ is the greatest player ever. We need to give it a few years (like at least until he is on the other side of 30 and his window is closing instead of just getting started) before we start trying to rank him against others who have an entire careers resume.

LeBron will never be seen in the same light as MJ.

1. Because he isn't nearly as good.
2. Because he destroyed his own legacy.

Also, whether or not is the best player in the league right now is debatable. I can definitely see someone providing solid arguments for him not being top 20.

[KSUowls]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

LeBron will never be seen in the same light as MJ.

1. Because he isn't nearly as good.
2. Because he destroyed his own legacy.

Also, whether or not is the best player in the league right now is debatable. I can definitely see someone providing solid arguments for him not being top 20.

I'm not getting into an MJ vs LBJ debate. My entire point was that James is like 26 years old. If he were to play until he was the same age that Kobe is now that means he has barely eclipsed the half way point of his career. At the same point in his career MJ only had 1 or 2 of his 6 rings. All of this is to say, let the man actually put together a something close to a full resume before we try and rank him among the best ever. It's way too premature to be doing that right now because he's still relatively young.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

In case I'm not the only one, the good parts of this thread begin on Page 420 and some folks were on the money with their predictions(not for the Heat though). Not that it was hard to predict anyway...

(currently on page 480 lol )

Thank you PPM... just... thank you. lol. I wasn't even reading OS when the Decision happened. That was some funny **** right there.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

Probably a top 5 talent of all time, I think everyone would agree with that. Having said that, the scary thing is that he SHOULD be better than he is. He should have some sort of a post game. That alone would make him an all-time great if he isn't already.





I hate LeBron. Just needed to add that in there.

[Bumi]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

Probably a top 5 talent of all time, I think everyone would agree with that. Having said that, the scary thing is that he SHOULD be better than he is. He should have some sort of a post game. That alone would make him an all-time great if he isn't already.





I hate LeBron. Just needed to add that in there.

I don't think he's a top 5 talent either. Sure, he's talented, but when I watch him play I'm not more impressed with his basketball talent than I was prime T-Mac, Vince Carter, Tim Duncan, Kobe, Chris Paul, Dirk, etc.

I think he's more athletic than he his basketball talented. His skill is very limited. He lives off his athletic ability.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

I don't think he's a top 5 talent either. Sure, he's talented, but when I watch him play I'm not more impressed with his basketball talent than I was prime T-Mac, Vince Carter, Tim Duncan, Kobe, Chris Paul, Dirk, etc.

I think he's more athletic than he his basketball talented. His skill is very limited. He lives off his athletic ability.

You don't think Vince Carter lived off his athletic ability?

Regardless, LeBron can rack up triple doubles pretty much with ease, and at the same time, he can blow up for 40 points on any given night as well. Shoots the ball over 50% from the floor, and is a great passer and rebounder. A guy as physically gifted as he is coupled with his talent and durability comes around once in a lifetime. He can defend four positions, assist teammates like Rondo, or score among the best in the league, and rebound the ball as well as anyone besides the guys like Dwight Howard and all them too.

LeBron has used his athleticism to develop basketball skills that suit him and he's pretty much without a doubt the best player in the league right now. As much as I hate him, I think it's pretty difficult to argue that he isn't one of the greatest talents of all-time.

[KSUowls]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

Yeah...you're seriously selling the guy short with that statement. For one basketball is a game about athleticism. You can't be an all around player if you aren't athletic.

Defense, rebounding, court vision, etc... are all things he is really good at. As I said I have no intention of getting into a James/Jordan debate, but since you obviously hold his Airness in high regard you might think about considering this when you talk about being unimpressed (using this term loosely) by James' talents. James per game averages are as good or better than Jordan's in nearly every category except FT %, points, and steals.

Again not debating who is better, but if MJ is a good benchmark for judging talent then those stats are something to consider.

[Bumi]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

You don't think Vince Carter lived off his athletic ability?

Yes. What does that have to do with my statement though?

Regardless, LeBron can rack up triple doubles pretty much with ease

He had 4 triple doubles in 79 games. How exactly is that defined as "racking them up with ease"?

To put this in perspective, Russell Westbrook has 3 triple doubles this season. Rondo had 3 of his own.

and at the same time, he can blow up for 40 points on any given night as well.

So can a ton of other players.

Shoots the ball over 50% from the floor

To put this in perspective, LeBron finished the season with a TS% of 59.

Durant: TS% 59
Dirk: TS% 61
Wade: TS% 58
Howard: TS% 61

In other words. Most elite players are well within range of LeBron's efficiency.

and is a great passer and rebounder.

Yep.

A guy as physically gifted as he is coupled with his talent and durability comes around once in a lifetime.

Not really. Extreme hyperbole in my opinion. We haven't seen many players as athletic as he, but there's been plenty that are either his peer, or exceeded his basketball talent.

To put this in perspective. Dwight Howard is his peer in terms of athletic ability, and Howard has missed 8 games in his 7 year career. Howard is never described as a once in a lifetime specimen, nor should he be.

He can defend four positions

So can Kevin Durant. Not nearly as effectively(Yet). Not saying he'll ever be the defender LeBron is, but their defensive versatility is about the same.

Gerald Wallace can defense a number of positions as well.

Also, LeBron doesn't have a ton of success defensively against premier scoring PF's.

assist teammates like Rondo

Huh? If you're implying his court vision is equal to Rondo's, it isn't. And it really isn't that close.

or score among the best in the league

Yep.

and rebound the ball as well as anyone besides the guys like Dwight Howard and all them too.

No. He's one of the better rebounding 3's, but he isn't even close to being one of the best rebounders in the game.

LeBron has used his athleticism to develop basketball skills that suit him and he's pretty much without a doubt the best player in the league right now. As much as I hate him, I think it's pretty difficult to argue that he isn't one of the greatest talents of all-time.

I don't hate him. I think he's sorely overrated though.

Also, I have Dirk being the best player in the NBA right now. He's posting historic numbers.

[Bumi]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

Yeah...you're seriously selling the guy short with that statement. For one basketball is a game about athleticism. You can't be an all around player if you aren't athletic.

No, it isn't. Just ask Tim Duncan, Larry Bird, Dirk Nowitzki, etc.

Defense, rebounding, court vision, etc

Defense is the only thing you listed that is even slightly dependent upon athleticism. And even a player with limited athleticism can develop into a great defender.

Rebounding? I'd hardly describe Kevin Love as an athletic freak

Court vision? Wouldn't describe Deron Williams as being a freak athletically either.

... are all things he is really good at.

In respect to his position. There's a number of point guards with better court vision, and a ton of players that are better rebounders. Him being the best rebounding SF is even debatable.

As I said I have no intention of getting into a James/Jordan debate, but since you obviously hold his Airness in high regard you might think about considering this when you talk about being unimpressed (using this term loosely) by James' talents. James per game averages are as good or better than Jordan's in nearly every category except FT %, points, and steals.

Ok.

Again not debating who is better, but if MJ is a good benchmark for judging talent then those stats are something to consider.

Ok.

[KSUowls]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

No, it isn't. Just ask Tim Duncan, Larry Bird, Dirk Nowitzki, etc.

Bird played in a different era. Duncan isn't the dynamic scorer that Lebron is and Dirk has his own issues. The point being that to be a complete player you have to be very athletic and/or have physical stature to compensate for a lack of athleticism. Basically I don't see how being athletic is a knock on his status.

Defense is the only thing you listed that is even slightly dependent upon athleticism. And even a player with limited athleticism can develop into a great defender.

I should have separated my thoughts better. I was listing the attributes that makes him an impressive player not attributes that are defined by athleticism.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Where does LeBron rank all-time?

Yes. What does that have to do with my statement though?



He had 4 triple doubles in 79 games. How exactly is that defined as "racking them up with ease"?

He's 9th all time in triple doubles, despite having about half the playing experience of the rest of the top 10.

To put this in perspective, Russell Westbrook has 3 triple doubles this season. Rondo had 3 of his own.



So can a ton of other players.

But can a ton of other players put up 40 one night and then put up 20, 10, and 10 the next?

To put this in perspective, LeBron finished the season with a TS% of 59.

Durant: TS% 59
Dirk: TS% 61
Wade: TS% 58
Howard: TS% 61

In other words. Most elite players are well within range of LeBron's efficiency.

You can't really count Dwight considering he doesn't even shoot the ball...
Durant and Dirk shot just as well, if not better than LeBron, but they're shooters. That's what they do. Neither of them are close to LeBron defensively, nor are they close to LeBron when it comes to passing. LeBron's a better rebounder than Durant, and while he isn't better than Dirk, he also doesn't play defense right next to the hoop like Dirk either.



Yep.



Not really. Extreme hyperbole in my opinion. We haven't seen many players as athletic as he, but there's been plenty that are either his peer, or exceeded his basketball talent.

To put this in perspective. Dwight Howard is his peer in terms of athletic ability, and Howard has missed 8 games in his 7 year career. Howard is never described as a once in a lifetime specimen, nor should he be.

I kinda disagree. Dwight was the #1 pick because of the fact that his combination of athleticism and strength hadn't been seen since at least Shaq.


So can Kevin Durant. Not nearly as effectively(Yet). Not saying he'll ever be the defender LeBron is, but their defensive versatility is about the same.

Come on dude... Durant isn't about to keep Derrick Rose in front of him...

Gerald Wallace can defense a number of positions as well.

Also, LeBron doesn't have a ton of success defensively against premier scoring PF's.

You name these players that can defend multiple positions, but none of them can also play those positions on the offensive end. Wallace and Durant aren't about to play like Magic Johnson offensively.



Huh? If you're implying his court vision is equal to Rondo's, it isn't. And it really isn't that close.

I'm saying he's an unselfish passer who more often than not puts his teammates in the best positions to score, once again evidenced by his triple doubles despite being one of the best scorers in the NBA.

Yep.



No. He's one of the better rebounding 3's, but he isn't even close to being one of the best rebounders in the game.



I don't hate him. I think he's sorely overrated though.

Also, I have Dirk being the best player in the NBA right now. He's posting historic numbers.

LeBron has posted historic numbers in his career too.

Ugh, I hate myself for actually defending him....