The LeBron James Thread

[King_B_Mack]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

That's your opinion. I just think it's funny and ridiculous to say that they "weren't built to win a title" or "weren't going to win a title" simply because they lost. Nevermind the fact the Magic rode a ridiculous stretch of lights out shooting to do it.


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[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Hindsight is a bitch at times and this one of those times.

Lack of context is missing(as usual) as well when it comes to this particular issue.

[OkayC]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Very true, I just think some are going to the other extreme as well..of course no one said that about the Heat after the DAL series...the Heat were miles better than any of those Cav's teams. Our 60+ teams that didn't win the chip weren't getting blown out in the playoffs either...neither did the Mav's teams, or those Suns teams...I could post even closer scores than yours...we could play 'what if' with every close series though...hard to do that with basketball,.





Mo Williams was on the Bucks in 2007...

Edit, i meant to say, i thought his last year was the year before. But my memory could be fuzzy cuz i didnt watch much basketball that year.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

That's your opinion. I just think it's funny and ridiculous to say that they "weren't built to win a title" or "weren't going to win a title" simply because they lost. Nevermind the fact the Magic rode a ridiculous stretch of lights out shooting to do it.


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Of course it is, hence why I put "I think" in there...when it comes to this stuff, it's all opinion, goes without saying.

Hindsight is indeed a *****, guys just have to remember that not every ones opinions suddenly change based on the results, I think it's just as ridiculous to assume that...I was never sold on the Cav's winning with that team and under Mike Brown....I wasn't the only one either...

I'm not sold on OKC winning as currently constructed either, and I will maintain that even if KD joins another team in a couple of years and we look back at it, lol

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

LeBron had decent talent around him in Cleveland but they had no business winning 60 games or being looked at as a legit contender. LeBron was the reason they overachieved. In a nutshell. No need to rehash those 7 years but yeah it's amazing those teams achieved what they did... you put any other superstar at the time on that team and I don't see them doing much of anything. The only reason they were looked at as a contender was because of LeBron's amazing talent.

[BrutusManziel]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I don't see any possible way he stays in Miami.

[ojandpizza]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

It all depends on how you look at those teams.

If you look at them for what they are, a team built to win a few rounds in the East then no they aren't that bad. But looking at them at a team that was supposed to win a championship? Yeah that's pretty laughable.

They had some great regular seasons, but they were not built to compete with Orlando, Boston, or whoever they would have faced in the West.

2008- Big Z, West, Wally were expected to compete as options 2-4 against Rondo, Garnett, Allen, Posey?

2009- Mo, West, Big Z, Andy- against Hedo, Lewis, Alston, Pietrus, Gortat?

2010- Shaq, Mo, Jamison, Parker - Garnett, Allen, Pierce, T. Allen, Sheed?

Miami benefitted from playing in a weak Eastern conference and having LeBron..

They could have taken a couple games from Orlando, but then again it could have just as easily been an Orlando sweep. They didn't have any form of mobile enough size to negate anything Dwight brought. LeBron averaged 38ppg, 8rpg, 8apg in this series.. During that playoff run he led the team in points(35), rebounds(9), assist(7), steals, 2nd in blocks, and a ridiculous PER of 37.4..

In 2010 everyone collapsed when they got to Boston. Shaq was actually their second leading scorer, at 37 years old. Mo decided to shoot 22% from 3, Jamison 18% from 3. LeBron led them in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.

In 2008 they had 3 players in double digit playoff scoring. West, Big Z, Wally.. The highest only at 13ppg.

The year they actually made the finals Big Z was second in scoring at 12.6 in the playoffs. In the finals pretty much everyone collapsed, Gooden and Gibson were the 2nd and 3rd leading scorers. In the Eastern conference finals Daniel Gibson was actually their second leading score against Detroit.. Hughes who was (not that bad) actually averaged 7ppg, and in his two finals games he averaged 1 point in 21 minutes per game.

In 2006 Hughes and Big Z were the only double digit playoff scorers, Hughes at 11, Big Z at 10. In the series they lost to Detroit Big Z was the only player besides LeBron in double figures with 10.

During their playoff runs Mo Williams was the only player on the team to ever play anything close to All-Star level. He actually made the All-Star game as a reserve in 2009.. Daniel Gibson and Sasha Pavlovic, key players in the runs don't even have a damn job right now. They were built poorly, with no inside scorer, nobody who could even land double digit rebounds, no real rim protection, decent but extremely streaky outside shooters, no real "point guard", Hughes, Mo, West the only players who could go create a look and none of them were any good at it, and they topped it off with what most consider a horrible coach.

They just didn't have the players who could pick up their play, or even maintain their regular season play, once they faced a good playoff team. Luckily for them the East was so bad that they usually didn't have to worry about that until they hit the Eastern Conference Finals.

I'm part of the group that thinks how bad they are is a little overblown.. But I also never really looked at them as "contenders". I always looked at them as a team that had a chance to come out of the East if they played well.

Thinking on it though, was there ever a team that won a title with only one player who was an All-Star level player? Say LeBron was injured a year, or missed a year for whatever reason. Whether it be a year when Mo was playing as their best player, West was, or Big Z was.. Any of those seasons they would likely be in the lottery the next season. I don't care if you're a Jordan-Magic-Wilt hybrid, you aren't taking a lottery team without you to a championship team with you.


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[Rocky]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

LeBron had decent talent around him in Cleveland but they had no business winning 60 games or being looked at as a legit contender. LeBron was the reason they overachieved. In a nutshell. No need to rehash those 7 years but yeah it's amazing those teams achieved what they did... you put any other superstar at the time on that team and I don't see them doing much of anything. The only reason they were looked at as a contender was because of LeBron's amazing talent.

It's interesting to compare those Cleveland teams and this past Miami team though. At first glance you would think that Miami blows Cleveland out the water sans Lebron, but I don't know if that's the case.

Guards:
Mo Williams, Delonte West, Daniel Gibson, Danny Green vs. Mario Chalmers, Dwayne Wade, Ray Allen, Norris Cole
If Wade is 100%, then obviously there is no comparison. But 40 games of Wade who has lost a step and breaks down consistently is another story. Miami still wins this easily but it's not a laughable comparison like it was if you had a healthy Wade for all those years.

Wings:
Anthony Parker, Wally Sczerbiak, Sasha Pavovlic vs. Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Rashard Lewis
Obviously Lebron is the dominant wing player so this comparison isn't going to matter as much. Miami wins here too though because those guys often came through in the clutch and played great D while Cleveland's wings really added nothing outside perimeter shooting and solid D in the regular season.

Bigs:
Andy Varejao, Big Z, JJ Hickson, Antawn Jamison, Shaq vs. Chris Bosh, Birdman, Udonis Haslem
Even though Bosh is an All-Star, I'm going with Cleveland. Hickson and Varejao have been good players even without Lebron. Jamison actually may have made this group worse because he was so bad on defense.

Really that Cleveland team was only on solid scoring big or dynamic wing away from looking good. Heck, if I told you Mo Williams, Andy Varejao, JJ Hickson, and a sane Delonte West were joining Lebron, Bosh, and Wade in Miami THIS summer, I think Heat fans could live with that.

Edit: oj beat me to it haha. But I don't enough credit is given to how well Cleveland defended...particularly West, Big Z, and Andy and Mo Williams is still regarded as a good two way player. Plus you have a 24 year old Lebron vs. a 29 year old Lebron who was worn down.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Miami support v Cleveland support is 100% laughable if you're trying to compare

There is a reason Miami made 4 straight finals appearances and Cleveland made 1, only to get swept in the championship. The Heat didn't even need a year to to build chemistry, they went straight to the finals in the first season.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

It all depends on how you look at those teams.

If you look at them for what they are, a team built to win a few rounds in the East then no they aren't that bad. But looking at them at a team that was supposed to win a championship? Yeah that's pretty laughable.

They had some great regular seasons, but they were not built to compete with Orlando, Boston, or whoever they would have faced in the West.

2008- Big Z, West, Wally were expected to compete as options 2-4 against Rondo, Garnett, Allen, Posey?

2009- Mo, West, Big Z, Andy- against Hedo, Lewis, Alston, Pietrus, Gortat?

2010- Shaq, Mo, Jamison, Parker - Garnett, Allen, Pierce, T. Allen, Sheed?

Miami benefitted from playing in a weak Eastern conference and having LeBron..

They could have taken a couple games from Orlando, but then again it could have just as easily been an Orlando sweep. They didn't have any form of mobile enough size to negate anything Dwight brought. LeBron averaged 38ppg, 8rpg, 8apg in this series.. During that playoff run he led the team in points(35), rebounds(9), assist(7), steals, 2nd in blocks, and a ridiculous PER of 37.4..

In 2010 everyone collapsed when they got to Boston. Shaq was actually their second leading scorer, at 37 years old. Mo decided to shoot 22% from 3, Jamison 18% from 3. LeBron led them in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.

In 2008 they had 3 players in double digit playoff scoring. West, Big Z, Wally.. The highest only at 13ppg.

The year they actually made the finals Big Z was second in scoring at 12.6 in the playoffs. In the finals pretty much everyone collapsed, Gooden and Gibson were the 2nd and 3rd leading scorers. In the Eastern conference finals Daniel Gibson was actually their second leading score against Detroit.. Hughes who was (not that bad) actually averaged 7ppg, and in his two finals games he averaged 1 point in 21 minutes per game.

In 2006 Hughes and Big Z were the only double digit playoff scorers, Hughes at 11, Big Z at 10. In the series they lost to Detroit Big Z was the only player besides LeBron in double figures with 10.

During their playoff runs Mo Williams was the only player on the team to ever play anything close to All-Star level. He actually made the All-Star game as a reserve in 2009.. Daniel Gibson and Sasha Pavlovic, key players in the runs don't even have a damn job right now. They were built poorly, with no inside scorer, nobody who could even land double digit rebounds, no real rim protection, decent but extremely streaky outside shooters, no real "point guard", Hughes, Mo, West the only players who could go create a look and none of them were any good at it, and they topped it off with what most consider a horrible coach.

They just didn't have the players who could pick up their play, or even maintain their regular season play, once they faced a good playoff team. Luckily for them the East was so bad that they usually didn't have to worry about that until they hit the Eastern Conference Finals.

I'm part of the group that thinks how bad they are is a little overblown.. But I also never really looked at them as "contenders". I always looked at them as a team that had a chance to come out of the East if they played well.

Thinking on it though, was there ever a team that won a title with only one player who was an All-Star level player? Say LeBron was injured a year, or missed a year for whatever reason. Whether it be a year when Mo was playing as their best player, West was, or Big Z was.. Any of those seasons they would likely be in the lottery the next season. I don't care if you're a Jordan-Magic-Wilt hybrid, you aren't taking a lottery team without you to a championship team with you.


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So this only works one way? They could have just as easily been swept by Orlando but they couldn't have just as easily swept the Magic? Orlando had one season where those guys were playing at a high level and they rode it to the Finals. It's honestly a joke to pretend like Cleveland had no chance at even making the Finals.

Nobody is even debating the teams prior to the two 60 win teams. Those teams were bad and LeBron single handedly made that Finals trip possible in '07. '10 though shouldn't even be brought up because LeBron along with the rest of them minus Shaq, quit in that Boston series. Had they actually come out to play there, they might have actually won that series. But we'll never know.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

So this only works one way? They could have just as easily been swept by Orlando but they couldn't have just as easily swept the Magic? Orlando had one season where those guys were playing at a high level and they rode it to the Finals. It's honestly a joke to pretend like Cleveland had no chance at even making the Finals.

Nobody is even debating the teams prior to the two 60 win teams. Those teams were bad and LeBron single handedly made that Finals trip possible in '07. '10 though shouldn't even be brought up because LeBron along with the rest of them minus Shaq, quit in that Boston series. Had they actually come out to play there, they might have actually won that series. But we'll never know.

I think the Cavs definitely always had a chance to make the finals but mostly because of LeBron not the team. Especially not the coach.

[cavsfan2]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I'm not saying the Miami team is the same level as the Cavs teams Lebron had, the miami teams are far better. But I think if the eastern conference was as bad as it is now when Lebron was with the Cavs in that 2007-2010 stretch te Cavs could've made 4 straight finals too.

Damn the eastern conference sucks.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Id love to see who on that Cav's team could make the plays that Wade (even at 70%), Bosh and Ray Allen made.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I disagree about about that 09 Magic team though.

[slimm44]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I was looking at advanced stats (MPG+USG+Per) because, in using statistics, it is a simple way of looking at how much a player plays, how often they are used, and how efficient they are when on the court. Since 1980, there have been 14 times where the Finals MVP has a rating over 100 when you add up those categories. They are:

1993 Jordan 109.3
2012 Lebron 106.4
1998 Jordan 106.2
1992 Jordan 106.1
2000 Shaq 105.3
1991 Jordan 105.2
1997 Jordan 104.9
1995 Olajuwon 104.8
2001 Shaq 103
1994 Olajuwon 102.1
2009 Kobe 100.6
2002 Shaq 100.5
1996 Jordan 100.3
2006 Wade 100.3