The LeBron James Thread

[Scofield]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I think the '09 Cavaliers are a good example. Many stand here now stating how Cleveland was not a contender that year or had no shot of winning a ring. Yet, they were a squad who won 66 games and swept through the first two rounds of the playoffs. Some say, "Well, they could not matchup with a team like Orlando." I say, Cleveland was one wide open Mo Williams jumpshot in game 1 away (his miss led to a 107-106 loss) from being up 2-0 in a series they took to six games anyway.

To me, that doesn't necessarily point to systemic failure (Cleveland also lost a game by two in overtime during that series).That just feels like basketball being basketball. However, some historic outlooks seem to suggest Cleveland never had a chance, which I find unfounded. Winning two games and losing two more by a combined 3 points suggests to me that a team was more than capable of winning that series.

Think about the context. LBJ had one of the greatest playoffs series in League history. That's not just basketball being basketball, it's his dominance distorting reality. It's his dominance distracting you from the fact that in the end they were depending on a mo Williams level talent in prime time against a great team. But even in the midst of all the distortion another way to the truth was opened up. LBJ had to perform the way he did to keep those games close, one of the biggest red flags in terms of evaluating a teams real value in a playoff setting.

Your statement about historical outlooks is the case and point for my argument. You were distracted by how close the games were and looked right past why. LBJs performances were telling us the truth about the Cavs. Their being close in those games wasn't a signal of how close they were to overall victory. It was a signal for how far away from it they were. Again, he had to perform the way he did just to keep them close. Historically, teams that need that kind of production just to stay in the fight don't win.

[Boltman]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

It honestly wouldn't mean anything, but the fact she put "the countdown is real", definitely raises some eyebrows.

It definitely raises eyebrows and could have some merit.

We'll see what transpires, maybe she's just trolling people lol.

[ThreeKing]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

It's like, the countdown to what?? lol

Honestly, if she's trolling after what her husband did the first time around, then that's really ****ed up.

It has to have some merit to it.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

The Spurs were considered contenders though.. I mean at this point I think you're either choosing to ignore the facts or you're just making things up...

3/6 experts on SI said Spurs would make the conference finals
14 experts on ESPN said Clippers would make finals, 6 said Thunder, 5 said Spurs

It was always the Spurs, Thunder and Clippers as the contenders and then the Heat and Pacers in the east

It looks like you jumped in on the back end of a discussion I was having with someone else. The discussion was talking about championship contenders... meaning thought to be able to win the championship. Not make the conference finals... not make the finals. Win the ring.

If the thought is that "contender" for the sake of this conversation means making the conf finals or possibly making the championship, then the 09 and 10 Cavs would most definitely have been considered contenders... which is my entire argument.

What exactly does any of that matter? I'm sure we could dig up all the predictions of the Cavs making the Finals or winning it and yet your argument is still that they weren't contenders or they were only contenders because of LeBron despite that information and yet you're using that information to poke holes in wwharton's argument?

Exactly. It's picking and choosing what a "contender" is based on which side of the argument you're trying to defend.

Huh? I'm simply saying that wwharton is definitely incorrect in saying that the Spurs weren't contenders going into the season. I'm not saying it matters or doesn't matter, it's just flat out wrong.

Cavs were contenders with James for sure. Outside of Mo Williams in 2009 (who was the 2nd alternate) James never had another All-Star beside him the last 4 years of his Cleveland career. Makes it tough to be a contender when you don't have All-Stars around you, but James was so great he elevated his team to contender status for all those years. It's pretty remarkable actually.

If "Cavs were contenders with James for sure" then why are you even replying to this discussion? That's exactly what I said and my posts were responses to people saying that wasn't true.

I don't care who was on the team that didn't make the all star game, isn't going to the hof, etc... the team was a contender to win the championship, which makes it ridiculous for people to suggest he had to leave to win one.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

It doesn't. It's still Akron, not Cleveland. Nothing to see here but 2010 all over again. Time for a bunch of people to muddy up the waters with a bunch of **** that's not going to happen to smoke screen whatever the real choice ends up.

Notice that all of a sudden this here pops up yesterday.

http://dimemag.com/2014/06/derrick-rose-sees-kevin-love-team-player-melo/

The Carmelo Anthony sweepstakes is unofficially upon us after multiple sources revealed Anthony will opt out of his final year with the Knicks and become an unrestricted free agent on July 1. The Bulls are said to be the leading contenders for his services, but sources say former MVP Derrick Rose is hoping the Bulls land Kevin Love, instead.

So Derrick has been all aboard the Melo train since back in April or May reportedly and as soon as word drops that Melo is gonna opt out, he wants Love instead? Wouldn't be surprised if a Rockets source "leaked" that or some Knicks fan writer pulled it out of their ***. Bottomline, everything is about to be some sign or clue to what's about to happen here. Don't fall for that nonsense again.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

All I'm saying that it was just as easy a conclusion to draw in real time and a number of people made the jump with good sound reasoning . The historical trend always gives us the best idea of what should happen. It's like betting in Vegas. You may win a few bones but if you stuck around long enough the house always wins out. But in both cases we're always drawn in by the momentary hope that maybe this time the odds can be beaten. That's what happened with those Cavs teams. "No chance" is an overstatement but the trend says teams like that don't usually win. Bottom line. Buts it's easy to get distracted by hype, noise and agendas.

The same goes for what just happened in the finals. Sure, there are a lot of people knee-jerking to positions in the aftermath but there also have been quite a few folks who came to those conclusions well beforehand and for good reason. The Spurs actually upgraded in the off season while Miami stayed mostly the same and were worse across the board in most every metric. The only outlier was DWade and I was never really convinced that he was ready to cause real damage. For me the test for him was centered around what he could do without LBJ on the floor against prime D. LBJs foul trouble game against Indiana closed the deal in my view, it was tangible proof of what I suspected.

But it's not like betting in Vegas in the context that it's being brought up. Personally, if a player is claiming to try to be the GOAT, then he isn't looking at Vegas odds based on the players around him and their stats the previous year... not even year, just playoff/championship series. A player, confident in his ability sees how close the team was and believes that if nothing changes they can win the next year. We're not talking about lottery teams here, both those Cavs teams and this Heat team have been close enough to taste it.

And the revisionist history thought still applies. You say the Heat did nothing, but Bosh had a more defined role and improved his shooting. They managed Wade's time so he was fresher for the playoff run. Birdman had an increased role and Cole was a better player.

And most importantly, the Spurs needed unpredictably amazing performances from Diaw and Leonard to do what they did. When people are looking back they will at least name Leonard as a star on the Spurs that proves they had more talent... coming into the series, he was a wild card... coming into the season, his impact was a huge unknown. That's what people do when they look back.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I would love to be a fly on the wall when players wives do stuff like that though...wonder f LeBrons like "damn it Savannah"

[23]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

It definitely raises eyebrows and could have some merit.

We'll see what transpires, maybe she's just trolling people lol.

She always puts something is real, whether its the diet or whatever she's doing

..and they always go home to Akron every summer. Man come on with this

[King_B_Mack]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

It's really no different than draft picks. People look back at picks five, six years afterwards and talk about how stupid a team was for taking a player that didn't pan out when going into the draft all signs were likely pointing at a long successful career.

[23]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

It's really no different than draft picks. People look back at picks five, six years afterwards and talk about how stupid a team was for taking a player that didn't pan out when going into the draft all signs were likely pointing at a long successful career.

You mean like Kwame?

[VDusen04]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Think about the context. LBJ had one of the greatest playoffs series in League history. That's not just basketball being basketball, it's his dominance distorting reality. It's his dominance distracting you from the fact that in the end they were depending on a mo Williams level talent in prime time against a great team. But even in the midst of all the distortion another way to the truth was opened up. LBJ had to perform the way he did to keep those games close, one of the biggest red flags in terms of evaluating a teams real value in a playoff setting.

Your statement about historical outlooks is the case and point for my argument. You were distracted by how close the games were and looked right past why. LBJs performances were telling us the truth about the Cavs. Their being close in those games wasn't a signal of how close they were to overall victory. It was a signal for how far away from it they were. Again, he had to perform the way he did just to keep them close. Historically, teams that need that kind of production just to stay in the fight don't win.

On the contrary, I do not believe LeBron James' dominance distorts reality. In fact, LeBron James' dominance is reality. Without LeBron James, I feel the Cavaliers would have been mere fodder. With LeBron James, aka the most dominant player I've seen in my lifetime aside from Michael Jordan, I felt they were contenders. I felt James was that good.

Whatever we want to say about how teams typically fare when someone has to dominate individually, I feel the point stands that it was working for the Cavaliers. They were not shellacked like the 2014 Heat (which could have been just as much about the Spurs playing well than the Heat not, but that's another story). Again, watching that '09 series, it was back-and-forth. If the Magic had shot 39.4% from the arc instead of 40.8% (aka Rashard missing a look and Hedo rimming one out), the series could have belonged to Cleveland.

We can talk about what the Cavs would be without LeBron, but they weren't without LeBron. Typically that sort of team may not find itself in position to succeed. But I did not find LeBron James to be typical. I felt they were in position to win that series throughout but in the end, one team was able to make a few more key plays.

[23]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Aint this something?

This thread had to start because of the decision and its still needed til this day?

[King_B_Mack]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

http://proxy.espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/20953/sorry-internet-lebrons-wife-not-sending-?ex_cid=sportscenterFB

There. Now let's not bring up this kind of nonsense anymore people.

[Scofield]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

But it's not like betting in Vegas in the context that it's being brought up. Personally, if a player is claiming to try to be the GOAT, then he isn't looking at Vegas odds based on the players around him and their stats the previous year... not even year, just playoff/championship series. A player, confident in his ability sees how close the team was and believes that if nothing changes they can win the next year. We're not talking about lottery teams here, both those Cavs teams and this Heat team have been close enough to taste it.

I brought the Vegas analogy up with respect to using historical trends to gauge who will win titles. If I'm bringing up an irrelevant point then I apologize. I wasn't addressing this from the point of view of the player, I was addressing it from the observer's point of view. If you're going to evaluate a teams chances based on the usual requirements then your attitude toward CLE would have been pessimistic. In Vegas, no matter how good things may look in the short term, the house wins out. In basketball, no matter how current trends appear to look, usually the historical trend wins out.

And the revisionist history thought still applies. You say the Heat did nothing, but Bosh had a more defined role and improved his shooting. They managed Wade's time so he was fresher for the playoff run. Birdman had an increased role and Cole was a better player.

And most importantly, the Spurs needed unpredictably amazing performances from Diaw and Leonard to do what they did. When people are looking back they will at least name Leonard as a star on the Spurs that proves they had more talent... coming into the series, he was a wild card... coming into the season, his impact was a huge unknown. That's what people do when they look back.

The Heat were worse this year than they were last year by almost every metric. In spite of everything you mentioned. The Spurs got deeper and better. The long view says the Spurs should have won.

[Scofield]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

On the contrary, I do not believe LeBron James' dominance distorts reality. In fact, LeBron James' dominance is reality. Without LeBron James, I feel the Cavaliers would have been mere fodder. With LeBron James, aka the most dominant player I've seen in my lifetime aside from Michael Jordan, I felt they were contenders. I felt James was that good.

Whatever we want to say about how teams typically fare when someone has to dominate individually, I feel the point stands that it was working for the Cavaliers. They were not shellacked like the 2014 Heat (which could have been just as much about the Spurs playing well than the Heat not, but that's another story). Again, watching that '09 series, it was back-and-forth. If the Magic had shot 39.4% from the arc instead of 40.8% (aka Rashard missing a look and Hedo rimming one out), the series could have belonged to Cleveland.

We can talk about what the Cavs would be without LeBron, but they weren't without LeBron. Typically that sort of team may not find itself in position to succeed. But I did not find LeBron James to be typical. I felt they were in position to win that series throughout but in the end, one team was able to make a few more key plays.

I think we're talking past each other. I don't mean to separate the Cavs from LBJ. I'm saying with him (and with him playing at a historic level) their weakness was masked. Not enough attention is being payed to how these teams score or don't score. Again, I think your Mo Williams line was telling. Any team that finds itself having to rely on someone like him in prime time in the context of the Cavs system, against premier talent is at a fundamental disadvantage. The worst mistake you can make is assuming that because you were close you were actually good enough to win. This years Pacers squad is the perfect example of a fatally flawed team getting fooled by how "close" they were.