2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

Stop? Looking at stats...?

What? OKC hasn't beaten elite teams? Westbrook hasn't put his team on his back? Rhetorical questions because the answer is both a resounding yes.

Don't know if you checked out for the first month or so of the season but that Kevin Durant guy wasn't playing too well and it was Russ Westbrook leading the way.

Both OKC and Chicago have played 46 games. Chicago's record is 3 wins better. The Thunder actually have a slightly better record than the Bulls do against .500 teams; given they've faced more as well since they play in the West.

The gap between Rose vs Westbrook is not as large as some would like to believe, and it's not looking at "stats" that allow folks to remain unknowing about the two.

I think just given Rose's draft stock and college career people automatically ascend him over someone like Westbrook...who I gues most think is overachieveing to this point.

No Derrick and Russ aren't as far apart as some people may think. However in terms of this discussion and the question posed about Russell being in the MVP discussion, no it's not close and this is exactly why just looking at stats doesn't work. What Rose is doing with his team who has one of the notoriously hardest opening schedules in the league every year without his second and third best players for pretty much the entire season and the entire scoring load on him is more MVP talk worthy than what Westbrook has done so far.

[JBH3]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

No Derrick and Russ aren't as far apart as some people may think. However in terms of this discussion and the question posed about Russell being in the MVP discussion, no it's not close and this is exactly why just looking at stats doesn't work. What Rose is doing with his team who has one of the notoriously hardest opening schedules in the league every year without his second and third best players for pretty much the entire season and the entire scoring load on him is more MVP talk worthy than what Westbrook has done so far.

Look again. Chicago's "grueling" West Coast Road trip had them coming away beating only one semi-elite team (Denver -- by 1pt). They have beaten NO ONE on the road. By contrast OKC hasn't faired much better versus the elite teams on the road; but can at least point to a road win against Boston, in which Westbrook dropped 31 with Kevin Durant sitting.

[Po Pimp]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

Stop? Looking at stats...?

What? OKC hasn't beaten elite teams? Westbrook hasn't put his team on his back? Rhetorical questions because the answer is both a resounding yes.
I recall a OKC win over the Celtics earlier this year in which OKC had the Celtics beat, but during crunch time, they couldn't score a basket. Westbrook didn't control the clock, and threw up some idiotic shots. OKC was able to prevail cause Boston couldn't buy a basket either.

Don't know if you checked out for the first month or so of the season but that Kevin Durant guy wasn't playing too well and it was Russ Westbrook leading the way.
Still, teams focus on stopping KD and not Russell Westbrook.

Both OKC and Chicago have played 46 games. Chicago's record is 3 wins better. The Thunder actually have a slightly better record than the Bulls do against .500 teams; given they've faced more as well since they play in the West.
So that means OKC lost to more sub-500% teams than the Bulls, correct?

The gap between Rose vs Westbrook is not as large as some would like to believe, and it's not looking at "stats" that allow folks to remain unknowing about the two.
Stats are nearly identical. Rose averages more points, while Westbrook averages slightly more rebounds and assists (has KD to pass the ball to), but I will say that Russ is a better on ball defender. He's also bigger than Rose. I think Rose is better at controlling the tempo, he's a much better shooter, and his ball handling, decision making is better than Russ at this point in time. Rose is also better at finishing around the basket, whereas Russ prefers to throw up some junk and draw a foul

I think just given Rose's draft stock and college career people automatically ascend him over someone like Westbrook...who I gues most think is overachieveing to this point.
Like Russ wasn't the 4th pick. Sure it was a surprise at the time, but 4 is still a very high pick.

We can agree to disagree, but I think I made my point.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

Look again. Chicago's "grueling" West Coast Road trip had them coming away beating only one semi-elite team (Denver -- by 1pt). They have beaten NO ONE on the road. By contrast OKC hasn't faired much better versus the elite teams on the road; but can at least point to a road win against Boston, in which Westbrook dropped 31 with Kevin Durant sitting.

So the Bulls didn't beat Dallas on that road trip? By your same asterik making logic on games, they weren't beating San Antonio within the last minute and a half of that game before the Spurs were able to pull away with Rose being the only person making any shots/plays down the stretch? They weren't playing well against the Lakers until the Lakers went nuts from three point land in the last two minutes of the game? I'd continue discussing this with you, but the fact that you put the Bulls' circus trip in quotations as if it's not a tough stretch of games to play that early in the season away from home and has been since the Jordan days tells me all I need to know about how this is going to go.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

Let's compare:

Player A:

PPG: 22.7
RPG: 5.1
APG: 8.5
TO: 3.9
SPG: 1.9
FG%: 44%
FT%: 85%
3pt%: 24%
MPG: 36.3
FPG: 2.5
This player has gotten to the FT line 383 times through Jan. 28th.

Player B:

PPG: 24.5
RPG: 4.6
APG: 8.2
TO: 3.5
SPG: 1.0
FG%: 44%
FT%: 82%
3pt%: 38%
MPG: 38.0
FPG: 1.5
This player has gotten to the FT line 279 times through Jan. 28th.


I dunno...I like player A more. He's gotten to the FT line 100x more than Player B, turnovers are negated by an extra steal a game, and player A plays in the West where top to bottom the talent level is deeper...especially in the backcourt. WhIch do you guys like? A or B?

Here we go with this again. Let's not forget to add that player A plays with the leagues leading scorer who draws the vast majority of the defense's attention. That alone makes a huge difference. Teams aren't double teaming player A they are double teaming his teammate. Meanwhile player B is the defensive focus of the defense and is the one facing far more double teams.

That also doesn't include the fact that player B has also been playing better defense than player A this year. His defensive rating is higher, has more defensive win shares, has the far better plus/minus, holds his opponent to a much lower PER, and has the better overall production numbers across the board.

The East is a collective: 310-351 through yesterday's games.

The West is a collective: 355-314 through yesterday's games.

By comparison Rose will have faced 3 of the worst team defenses 12 times (CLE/DET/Indy), and while MIL doesn't allow much scoring their DIFF is still negative.

Whereas Westbrook will have faced off with only Minnesota 4 times who are negative in DIFF.

If these aspects do not speak to the numbers that Westbrook has had to come by I don't know what else to do.

I don't know what defensive stats you are looking at but the Pacers are actually a better defensive team than the Thunder. They have a better OFG%, have a beter defensive rating, give up less points per game, and are a better defensive rebounding team. You want to talk defense the 3 teams in the league that give up the most points per game all are in the west. Meanwhile 6 of the top 9 in points allowed all reside in the East. 8 of the top 10 OFG% again reside in the east. 6 of the top 10 teams in defensive rating again reside in the east. Lastly 8 of the top 10 teams in opponents eFG% again reside in the east. So that throws that whole lil argument right out the window.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

Cot Damn Bulls Homers are in full effect my goodness LOL.

He's 3rd in scoring, has 20 double doubles, great percentages for a C/PF, and is one of the best big men from a pts/reb/assists perspective. When considering MVPs, who is more valuable to his team than Amar'e? Without him NY would be a bottom feeder in the East.

From the article I posted earlier:

Here’s the thing about Stoudemire — he’s the same player now he was in Phoenix. The numbers are close. Go ahead and point out he is scoring three more points per game than he was in Phoenix and I’ll note his shooting percentage — traditional and true shooting percentage — is down. Yes, he’s scoring three more points per game but he’s taking four more shots to do it.

Spare me the “defenses are focusing on him now” bit — if you think that defenses didn’t plan for him in Phoenix, you didn’t watch any of their games.

Which is kind of the point — Stoudemire was great in Phoenix but never got credit because people weren’t watching and too many of those that were became captivated by Steve Nash. Again, not to bash Nash, but he drew some of the attention that rightfully belonged to Stoudemire. Now, Stoudemire is getting that adulation on the big stage.

He has lifted the Knicks up to… average. The Knicks are not a good team folks, they’re just no longer craptastic. Credit Stoudemire for that — but that is very different than the MVP discussion. And you’d be shortchanging Raymond Felton. The truth of the campaign is that Stoudemire is New York’s favorite son and so all these Knick fans — including my bosses, so enjoy this column because I am biting the hand that feeds me — think he is now deserving of the league’s highest honors. No. He didn’t change, the Knicks changed a little with him and Felton. Stoudemire is not even having his best season (07-08).

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

Cot Damn Bulls Homers are in full effect my goodness LOL.



From the article I posted earlier:

Not in homer mode right now Pack. Crazy talk is crazy talk though.

[parker987]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

Derrick Rose, hes leading the team in every way, his improvement in shooting has done pretty well

[JBH3]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

We can agree to disagree, but I think I made my point.

Guess we will...

So the Bulls didn't beat Dallas on that road trip? By your same asterik making logic on games, they weren't beating San Antonio within the last minute and a half of that game before the Spurs were able to pull away with Rose being the only person making any shots/plays down the stretch? They weren't playing well against the Lakers until the Lakers went nuts from three point land in the last two minutes of the game? I'd continue discussing this with you, but the fact that you put the Bulls' circus trip in quotations as if it's not a tough stretch of games to play that early in the season away from home and has been since the Jordan days tells me all I need to know about how this is going to go.

Overlooked the Dallas W, my B. I understand the road trip, it was a monster...Like I said, overlooked the Dallas win.

Here we go with this again. Let's not forget to add that player A plays with the leagues leading scorer who draws the vast majority of the defense's attention. That alone makes a huge difference. Teams aren't double teaming player A they are double teaming his teammate. Meanwhile player B is the defensive focus of the defense and is the one facing far more double teams.

I watch quite a bit of OKC basketball w/ lg pass and Westbrook is drawing a fair share of the attention in games. So unless you're watching those games and being objective without just assuming that since Durant is there he's drawing all the attention then lets not play this game.

Besides...Westbrook has the 2nd highest usage rate amongst PGs which is 30.4, behind only Derrick Rose...who is 30.8. The gap is of no significance.

That also doesn't include the fact that player B has also been playing better defense than player A this year. His defensive rating is higher, has more defensive win shares, has the far better plus/minus, holds his opponent to a much lower PER, and has the better overall production numbers across the board.

According to John Hollinger's stats Westbrook has the higher PER:

Westbrook: 24.07
Rose: 23.09

How many triple doubles does Rose have this year? Ain't like he can't defer to Carlos Boozer now...

I don't know what defensive stats you are looking at but the Pacers are actually a better defensive team than the Thunder. They have a better OFG%, have a beter defensive rating, give up less points per game, and are a better defensive rebounding team. You want to talk defense the 3 teams in the league that give up the most points per game all are in the west. Meanwhile 6 of the top 9 in points allowed all reside in the East. 8 of the top 10 OFG% again reside in the east. 6 of the top 10 teams in defensive rating again reside in the east. Lastly 8 of the top 10 teams in opponents eFG% again reside in the east. So that throws that whole lil argument right out the window.

Regarding your assesment, I would then have to ask how mant times Indy has played Cleveland, Detroit, and any of the other horribly bad East teams. Because if Indy has faced those teams more, than their numbers are going to look better.

Than ask you do you really think that playing in a Division w/ Denver, Utah, and Portland is easier than the East Central?

Did you see the numbers I posted regarding the cumulative standings for the Eastern Conf versus the Western Conference. By nature of the Thunder playing in the West, and having played against more Western Conf teams is going to lend itself to the numbers being skewed so that we can pretend like Indy is a better defensive team.

[Wang Chung]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

Look again. Chicago's "grueling" West Coast Road trip had them coming away beating only one semi-elite team (Denver -- by 1pt). They have beaten NO ONE on the road. By contrast OKC hasn't faired much better versus the elite teams on the road; but can at least point to a road win against Boston, in which Westbrook dropped 31 with Kevin Durant sitting.

Its somewhat amusing that you're building an argument of 1 game when they've played 40 something games.

[Wang Chung]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

The East is a collective: 310-351 through yesterday's games.

The West is a collective: 355-314 through yesterday's games.

By comparison Rose will have faced 3 of the worst team defenses 12 times (CLE/DET/Indy), and while MIL doesn't allow much scoring their DIFF is still negative.

Whereas Westbrook will have faced off with only Minnesota 4 times who are negative in DIFF.

If these aspects do not speak to the numbers that Westbrook has had to come by I don't know what else to do.

The inescapable truth is that Westbrook plays with Durant, who is an elite player. The other defenses have to respect Durant. There is not an equivalent threat on Chicago. Chicago's best secondary threat has been injured for much of the season.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

I watch quite a bit of OKC basketball w/ lg pass and Westbrook is drawing a fair share of the attention in games. So unless you're watching those games and being objective without just assuming that since Durant is there he's drawing all the attention then lets not play this game.

Besides...Westbrook has the 2nd highest usage rate amongst PGs which is 30.4, behind only Derrick Rose...who is 30.8. The gap is of no significance.

Oh I watch plenty. Nobody said Westbrook doesn't draw any attention. The point is that Durant draws alot more attention. When teams go play the Thunder the number one thing they try to do is stop Durant from going off on them. There is no way you can tell me that Westbrook draws just as much defensive attention as Durant.

What does their usage rate have to do with the type of defense they see?? Oh yeah thats right nothing. So I have no idea why you even brought it up.

According to John Hollinger's stats Westbrook has the higher PER:

Westbrook: 24.07
Rose: 23.09

How many triple doubles does Rose have this year? Ain't like he can't defer to Carlos Boozer now...

What does this have to do with anything I said about their defensive play this year?? You do know that a players PER is a number that highly favors offense?? Like I posted Rose has the better defensive ratings and stats. Plus he has the far better overall production numbers. I will post it here for you so you don't have to look it up.

Rose's defensive rating is 102. Westbrook 108. Rose's overall plus/minus on the season is +228. Westbrook's is +8. These next numbers come from 82games Rose has a net production of +8.6, his on/off court net is +4, his simple rating is 7.1, he holds his opponents to a PER of 14.1 and has a net PER of 9.1. Westbrook on the other hand has a net production of 7.0, on/off court net of -5.5, a simple rating of 2.9, he holds his opponents to a PER of 18.9, and has a net PER of 6.2. Clearly Rose has the better numbers across the board. That was the entire point that you completely ingnored and wanted to talk about irrelevant things like triple doubles.

Lastly what does triple doubles have to do with anything let alone defense?? What is that question even trying to hint at?? Grant Hill has 12 more triple doubles than Kobe so what is your point??

[JBH3]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

Its somewhat amusing that you're building an argument of 1 game when they've played 40 something games.

My "argument" build on much more than that. Catch up...

The inescapable truth is that Westbrook plays with Durant, who is an elite player. The other defenses have to respect Durant. There is not an equivalent threat on Chicago. Chicago's best secondary threat has been injured for much of the season.

Again...like I asked T11...if you're assuming that because Westbrook plays w/ Durant, that by default of that he doesn't have to work, then what is there to be said about Wade playing with Lebron or vice versa? Why can't we then say, w/ the year that Westbrook is having, Durant is having a better year? Is that so far-fetched? I don't think so...

Look at the numbers man...Hollinger's metrics show that Westbrook is in the top10 in almost every category and is equal to Durant, much like how Wade and Lebron are about equal as well. Now, I'm not comparing the OKC tandem to the MIA tandem, just showing you that lets stop assuming just because Westbrook is on the same team as Durant that he's automatically second fiddle.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

Again...like I asked T11...if you're assuming that because Westbrook plays w/ Durant, that by default of that he doesn't have to work, then what is there to be said about Wade playing with Lebron or vice versa? Why can't we then say, w/ the year that Westbrook is having, Durant is having a better year? Is that so far-fetched? I don't think so...

Look at the numbers man...Hollinger's metrics show that Westbrook is in the top10 in almost every category and is equal to Durant, much like how Wade and Lebron are about equal as well. Now, I'm not comparing the OKC tandem to the MIA tandem, just showing you that lets stop assuming just because Westbrook is on the same team as Durant that he's automatically second fiddle.

Come on man you are better than this. Nobody is saying he doesn't have to work or assuming anything. You are reaching for an argument that isn't even there. The entire point is when you are comparing what the two players have done this year and their value to the team you can't ignore the fact that Westbrook plays with the NBA leading scorer over the past two years. That is a major factor in what is happening on the court. Durant has 18 games of at least 30 points. That is more than the Bulls have total including Rose. If you take Rose out of it Durant has three times as many 30 point games as Rose's entire cast. That can't just be ignored. Just like the injuries the Bulls have had to deal with can't be ignored.

Nobody is saying Westbrook is a bad player or anything of the such. We are just pointing out the fact that playing with the top scorer in all of the world makes things easier not only for him but everybody else on the team. Nobody is taking anything away from Westbrook. We are just pointing out that playing with Durant is a luxary that Rose or any other PG for that matter doesn't have.

I will say this and I am done with the Westbrook vs Rose thing because it is really pointless in this thread. You would have a better case if we was just talking about PG's but this is about MVP and nobody has Westbrook near the top of the list when it comes to MVP. At the end of the day the Bulls have a better record and Rose is the biggest reason for their record. When looking at the Thunder you can't say that Westbrook clearly is the biggest reason for their success. That is why he isn't in the MVP talk as of now and as long as Durant keeps doing what he is doing (he was the WC player of the month last month) Westbrook won't be in the MVP talks.

[JBH3]

Re: Who is your NBA MVP as of right now?

Come on man you are better than this. Nobody is saying he doesn't have to work or assuming anything. You are reaching for an argument that isn't even there. The entire point is when you are comparing what the two players have done this year and their value to the team you can't ignore the fact that Westbrook plays with the NBA leading scorer over the past two years. That is a major factor in what is happening on the court. Durant has 18 games of at least 30 points. That is more than the Bulls have total including Rose. If you take Rose out of it Durant has three times as many 30 point games as Rose's entire cast. That can't just be ignored. Just like the injuries the Bulls have had to deal with can't be ignored.

Nobody is saying Westbrook is a bad player or anything of the such. We are just pointing out the fact that playing with the top scorer in all of the world makes things easier not only for him but everybody else on the team. Nobody is taking anything away from Westbrook. We are just pointing out that playing with Durant is a luxary that Rose or any other PG for that matter doesn't have.

I will say this and I am done with the Westbrook vs Rose thing because it is really pointless in this thread. You would have a better case if we was just talking about PG's but this is about MVP and nobody has Westbrook near the top of the list when it comes to MVP. At the end of the day the Bulls have a better record and Rose is the biggest reason for their record. When looking at the Thunder you can't say that Westbrook clearly is the biggest reason for their success. That is why he isn't in the MVP talk as of now and as long as Durant keeps doing what he is doing (he was the WC player of the month last month) Westbrook won't be in the MVP talks.

Thought this was interesting:

Russell Westbrook and Derrick Rose H2H.

Rose for Plus/Minus MVP?