The worst pick up players.

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

Yeah but people are cheats and tools on the basketball court.. If you let the basket count, and it's offense calls fouls, you'll have those guys who will call a foul nearly every trip up the court because their is no consequence.

But if it's defense calls the fouls I'm with you, the basket should be counted.

I think it's a two-way street there. If the defense knows the basket won't count if an offensive player calls it, there's cheats and tools on the basketball court who will foul players virtually any time they attempt to shoot in the paint. It's a win-win for the defender: foul every time because it forces the offensive player to either never call any fouls (in case their shot goes in), thus allowing the defender the advantage that comes with fouling or to call the fouls correctly and nullify their potential ability to finish through illegal contact.

The moral of the story is, cheats and tools can make pickup basketball a bummer. However, I do not agree with changing the rules of the game to compensate for the possibility of someone trying to job the system, especially when that system can be jobbed in both directions. For the most part, we police that on our own pretty well. If a guy's making awful calls, we let him know and we don't honor them. But it wouldn't make sense for us to punish everyone else by taking away their three point plays.

If the defender calls the foul and the bucket goes in I've always seen it counted unless "extreme continuation" occurs. Something like "everyone else stops playing" and/or the offense takes another dribble would be "extreme continuation" in my book.

Yeah, I was actually going to edit my post and mention that before you brought it up, but I didn't want to be wordy and state the obvious. In my experiences, extreme continuations are a clear no-go for the exact reason you mentioned. If a guy calls a foul at the three point line, play pretty much stops, and he somehow ends up near the basket finishing a relatively uncontested play, that's never going to fly.

[ojandpizza]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I think it's a two-way street there. If the defense knows the basket won't count if an offensive player calls it, there's cheats and tools on the basketball court who will foul players virtually any time they attempt to shoot in the paint. It's a win-win for the defender: foul every time because it forces the offensive player to either never call any fouls (in case their shot goes in), thus allowing the defender the advantage that comes with fouling or to call the fouls correctly and nullify their potential ability to finish through illegal contact.

The moral of the story is, cheats and tools can make pickup basketball a bummer. However, I do not agree with changing the rules of the game to compensate for the possibility of someone trying to job the system, especially when that system can be jobbed in both directions. For the most part, we police that on our own pretty well. If a guy's making awful calls, we let him know and we don't honor them. But it wouldn't make sense for us to punish everyone else by taking away their three point plays.

Yeah, I was actually going to edit my post and mention that before you brought it up, but I didn't want to be wordy and state the obvious. In my experiences, extreme continuations are a clear no-go for the exact reason you mentioned. If a guy calls a foul at the three point line, play pretty much stops, and he somehow ends up near the basket finishing a relatively uncontested play, that's never going to fly.

This is exactly why I don't think offense calls the foul should ever be played.. That's why I hate playing like that. Defense calling the fouls just seems to go over much better.. Occasionally you have the guy who's overall pretty physical and doesn't realize he's fouling so he doesn't call it.. But as a whole everything goes much smoother.. Less bickering/arguing and more playing basketball.

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

This is exactly why I don't think offense calls the foul should ever be played.. That's why I hate playing like that. Defense calling the fouls just seems to go over much better.. Occasionally you have the guy who's overall pretty physical and doesn't realize he's fouling so he doesn't call it.. But as a whole everything goes much smoother.. Less bickering/arguing and more playing basketball.

I suppose it's just different strokes for different folks. In my opinion, disagreements are bound to happen at some point during intense games, regardless of format. A guy out there looking to take advantage of the rules is going to try to do so, whether it's him as an offensive player calling everything or him as a defender in "defense calls" games fouling and refusing to call it on himself.

Still, on the point of the original query, if it's an "offense calls" game, I still believe it makes much more sense to play by standard basketball rules (rewarding a player who is able to power through a foul and make a shot anyway) than to weirdly alter the rules so as to punish the 95% of players who do it right, just on the off chance a guy is trying to game the system. A system gamer is going to try to system game regardless, lest he be called out and dealt with separately. In my experience, nullifying three point plays just slows the game down (by stopping play and checking up after made baskets).

[SteelersFreak]

Re: The worst pick up players.

Ha, we had a good convo on this subject earlier in this thread, but that was dozens of pages ago and is now tough to find.

I'm a part of the "count the bucket" crowd. Mostly because, why wouldn't the basket count? Tying into what SteelersFreak said above, nobody likes a guy who makes foul calls late, especially if they're waiting to see if the basket goes in. So if a player does it the right way (calling a foul the moment it occurs - in the act of shooting) why should he be punished for making a great play and hitting the shot anyway?

Even as a defender, I can't imagine trying to take away a bucket from a dude just because I fouled him and he was still able to finish anyway. He calls a foul because I hacked the bejesus out of him in the act of shooting, he properly calls it on the spot, and is still able to finish by overcoming my illegal play? I tip my hat and we go the other way.

There has to be some kind of negative consequence of calling a foul for yourself on offense though. Up at UNT, we play offense calls their own fouls, if you call the foul and you make the shot, it doesn't matter, you check it back up, the basket doesn't count. Otherwise you'd have people throwing prayers up there and calling foul with the slightest contact since they're either going to make the shot or get the ball back.

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

There has to be some kind of negative consequence of calling a foul for yourself on offense though. Up at UNT, we play offense calls their own fouls, if you call the foul and you make the shot, it doesn't matter, you check it back up, the basket doesn't count. Otherwise you'd have people throwing prayers up there and calling foul with the slightest contact since they're either going to make the shot or get the ball back.

I do not believe zapping a player of an earned three point play is an appropriate negative consequence. I think the question would become, what sort of outcome would nullifying a three point play induce? Is the idea to encourage players to call less fouls?

In my experiences, both with and-ones and not, fouls tend to be called one way or another. The only real difference I've noticed, as mentioned, is frustration and a slow down in play when there's a no and-one rule, since buckets that should count are being wiped off the board for no reason, leading to a stoppage in play and a re-check.

To reiterate, I believe people who try to game the system are going to do so regardless. With and-ones, I've seen people calling ticky tack plays (though it's tough to think of someone who did so because they knew and-ones would count, they were just that guy, calling light things regardless). And in contrast, in the no and-one realm, I've come across defenders who discovered there's no real downfall to fouling someone everytime in the paint. It's a win-win-win. Fouling makes a shot harder to make. And if the offensive player calls a legitimately illegal play, his shot is dead. It basically becomes a situation where the offensive loses every potential advantage - for it'd be a checkup or a shot-affected no call (and likely miss) regardless.

My feeling is to handle those extreme situations as they pop up. Forcing normal players to play a game of chance and guess as to whether or not they should call a foul when fouled hard makes little logical sense to me. It seems we want players to call fouls when they happen, but then we want to take away their basket if they do what they're supposed to.

For me and my area, it's this simple: If I'm fouled considerably while in the act of shooting, I call it when it happens. If I make it anyway, just like in any other basketball game, the bucket counts and play continues. If someone tries to take advantage of that system, it does not fly and the fouls in question do not stand.

[KG]

Re: The worst pick up players.

This is exactly why I don't think offense calls the foul should ever be played.. That's why I hate playing like that. Defense calling the fouls just seems to go over much better.. Occasionally you have the guy who's overall pretty physical and doesn't realize he's fouling so he doesn't call it.. But as a whole everything goes much smoother.. Less bickering/arguing and more playing basketball.

IMO there are more dishonest people out there who wouldn't give you ball if they fouled you than the opposite situation. Some of my other favorite things are when the offensive guy says "And 1". Is the foul honored since "And 1" implies it? We usually say "no" it doesn't mean a foul is called even though sayings like "check ball" or "ball-up" are the same as calling "foul". Also, what do you guys play to? 16 with 1's & 2's? Most places I play have the first game going to 13 with all subsequent games going to 11 by 1's & 2's but I've played places where they play to 21 by 2's & 3's to help devalue the 3ball.

[wwharton]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I honestly didn't even know this would warrant a discussion like this. Pretty much everywhere I've played BOTH the offense and defense calls fouls. If I foul someone, I give them the ball... if someone thinks I've fouled them and I'm on the fence, they call the foul and they get the ball.

In either case, if they make the shot, it counts. Also in either case, if there is a disagreement on the call it gets discussed and sorted out. I guess I'm confused why these two things wouldn't happen on every black top and gym around the world. If there needs to be a view of offense or defense only calls fouls, that says something about the type of players that usually play there and I probably wouldn't want to be a part of it. House rules to deal with cheats just says cheats are allowed in the first place. Play as close to the rules of a reffed game as possible, and anyone trying to cheat should be called out, even by their own team.

[wwharton]

Re: The worst pick up players.

IMO there are more dishonest people out there who wouldn't give you ball if they fouled you than the opposite situation. Some of my other favorite things are when the offensive guy says "And 1". Is the foul honored since "And 1" implies it? We usually say "no" it doesn't mean a foul is called even though sayings like "check ball" or "ball-up" are the same as calling "foul". Also, what do you guys play to? 16 with 1's & 2's? Most places I play have the first game going to 13 with all subsequent games going to 11 by 1's & 2's but I've played places where they play to 21 by 2's & 3's to help devalue the 3ball.

Nowadays it's always to 21 or 25. Just makes more sense unless you're playing somewhere without a 3 point line.

[KG]

Re: The worst pick up players.

Nowadays it's always to 21 or 25. Just makes more sense unless you're playing somewhere without a 3 point line.

2s & 3s I assume? I also play somewhere that uses a clock which I like. The game is either to 11 or 15 minutes. It cuts down A LOT on the arguing.

[ojandpizza]

Re: The worst pick up players.

Where I play it's 15 first game then 12 each game after, but there is also usually 20+ people sitting out so they need the games to go quick.

One gym I play at is 11, another is 24 win by 4 using 2's and 3's.

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

IMO there are more dishonest people out there who wouldn't give you ball if they fouled you than the opposite situation. Some of my other favorite things are when the offensive guy says "And 1". Is the foul honored since "And 1" implies it? We usually say "no" it doesn't mean a foul is called even though sayings like "check ball" or "ball-up" are the same as calling "foul". Also, what do you guys play to? 16 with 1's & 2's? Most places I play have the first game going to 13 with all subsequent games going to 11 by 1's & 2's but I've played places where they play to 21 by 2's & 3's to help devalue the 3ball.

We tend to honor "And 1" if the player's intent is to call a foul. The only issue comes in when a player says "And 1" as slang, like a, "You hit me but I ain't callin' it" type of thing. Then play stops because we think he's calling a foul and he's like, "No I was just sayin', 'and 1'" and it usually takes 15 seconds to clarify that we interpret that phrase as a foul.

I think we discussed "and 1" earlier too. I feel like some people said they won't count and-1's unless the player specifically says, "and 1". Again, we don't really mess around with the semantics like that. If a guy got fouled and he says something that seems to insinuate a foul call (foul, got one, check up, and 1) then we check up... unless he hits the shot, then we just keep playing.

I kind of like the idea of reducing the worth of a triple by playing by twos and threes instead of ones and twos. I had to think about that one for a second. But it's as simple as, in a game of 2's and 1's, a triple is twice as much as a regular field goal whereas in 2's and 3's, a triple is only 50% more plentiful, right? That's intriguing, never thought about it like that.

As it stands now, we typically play by 1's and 2's to 11. If done right, it's usually a long enough game to wear us down pretty good. When I play ball in my younger brother's area, sometimes they'd go by 1's and 2's to 7, with very high intensity. But, like you said, with 7 being a top number, if someone's hot from three, the games can go from pretty quick and intense to just flat out short.

[ojandpizza]

Re: The worst pick up players.

Most places I play the games are honest.. Fouls are called both ways and their usually isn't any arguing, cheating, etc.

But when I used to play every day up at the college, and games were sometimes a two hour wait to get on the court, there was lots of issues with how people played.. And the offense calling the fouls there was always a problem, from my perspective at least.

It always depends where you're playing and who you're playing.

[ojandpizza]

Re: The worst pick up players.

We tend to honor "And 1" if the player's intent is to call a foul. The only issue comes in when a player says "And 1" as slang, like a, "You hit me but I ain't callin' it" type of thing. Then play stops because we think he's calling a foul and he's like, "No I was just sayin', 'and 1'" and it usually takes 15 seconds to clarify that we interpret that phrase as a foul.

I think we discussed "and 1" earlier too. I feel like some people said they won't count and-1's unless the player specifically says, "and 1". Again, we don't really mess around with the semantics like that. If a guy got fouled and he says something that seems to insinuate a foul call (foul, got one, check up, and 1) then we check up... unless he hits the shot, then we just keep playing.

I kind of like the idea of reducing the worth of a triple by playing by twos and threes instead of ones and twos. I had to think about that one for a second. But it's as simple as, in a game of 2's and 1's, a triple is twice as much as a regular field goal whereas in 2's and 3's, a triple is only 50% more plentiful, right? That's intriguing, never thought about it like that.

As it stands now, we typically play by 1's and 2's to 11. If done right, it's usually a long enough game to wear us down pretty good. When I play ball in my younger brother's area, sometimes they'd go by 1's and 2's to 7, with very high intensity. But, like you said, with 7 being a top number, if someone's hot from three, the games can go from pretty quick and intense to just flat out short.

To 7!? Hopefully we are talking half court here.?

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

To 7!? Hopefully we are talking half court here.?

Nope, it was very rare, but if we felt folks were pacing themselves too much and just flowing to 11, we'd up the ante and push it to 7 (by ones and twos), so folks would push to the max on both ends, with every basket becoming absolutely crucial. Intensity would increase dramatically.

I wish I could say I play in areas where every pickup game is played with 100% effort from everyone for each game's entire duration (everyone always getting back on defense, no standing around from anyone on offense at any point, etc.) but unfortunately that is not the case. Often, if shots aren't falling, once it gets around the 8th or 9th point, some stragglers begin jogging, play gets generally sloppy, etc. We just happened to find a fix once in cutting it to 7. Again, very rare, but not as crazy as it may sound.

[wwharton]

Re: The worst pick up players.

2s & 3s I assume? I also play somewhere that uses a clock which I like. The game is either to 11 or 15 minutes. It cuts down A LOT on the arguing.

Yep. A clock would be interesting... especially a running clock.

I kind of like the idea of reducing the worth of a triple by playing by twos and threes instead of ones and twos. I had to think about that one for a second. But it's as simple as, in a game of 2's and 1's, a triple is twice as much as a regular field goal whereas in 2's and 3's, a triple is only 50% more plentiful, right? That's intriguing, never thought about it like that.

As it stands now, we typically play by 1's and 2's to 11. If done right, it's usually a long enough game to wear us down pretty good. When I play ball in my younger brother's area, sometimes they'd go by 1's and 2's to 7, with very high intensity. But, like you said, with 7 being a top number, if someone's hot from three, the games can go from pretty quick and intense to just flat out short.

I don't play much outside anymore (my knees thank me) and with the competition and inside, there's always a good amount of 3 point shooters. Games to 11 seem to fly by, and even if you have a good post player, teams would tend to hover around the line... esp if they get down by 2 or 3.

I can't remember when the switch to 21 (first game to 25) started or where, but now it seems to be the norm everywhere I go and it makes perfect sense. Three point shots aren't difficult enough to be worth twice as much as a two. Hell, when you're playing with guys in their 30's and 40's that know what they're doing and have some skill, it may even be an easier shot in a half court set than trying to score in the paint. With that in mind, it may even make sense for us older guys to just play all 1's these days... we'd still opt for more outside shots than driving I think. Unless I get to go to the free throw line, I drive probably 10% as much as my younger days... no matter who's calling the foul.