CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

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  • Dice
    Sitting by the door
    • Jul 2002
    • 6627

    #706
    Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

    Another good article on why the players are fighting a loosing battle.


    As I stated before, the player should have took a page out of the MLBPA labor playbook and had a strike right before the end of the season. That to me would have been their only leverage against the owners. But that ship has passed. The 'playing overseas' tactic would have been a good strategy BUT not enough people are getting involved for it to be effective. And even if that was the case, it still would have been a long shot to win this labor dispute.

    Time for players to face harsh reality in labor negotiations




    Memo to NBA players: It's time to wave the white flag.

    Or at least put the menacing stares and looks of exasperation away for a while and insert a few (dozen) more concessions into the next proposal to force those draconian owners back to the negotiating table before things get even worse.

    As the lockout approaches its two-month mark and with just one full-blown meeting having taken place since it began, the harsh reality is that the leverage players wanted so badly doesn't seem to exist.

    The international job options that were limited to begin with are shrinking by the day. Euroleague officials are claiming disinterest in the idea of signing NBA players who are under contract, and the Chinese Basketball Association recently announced that it won't allow opt-out clauses in contracts, even if doing so means it can't have Kobe Bryant.

    Decertification remains an option for the players, although dissolving the union would do immense damage to both sides, and it would only extend this sluggish situation considering the league filed a litany of preemptive lawsuits in early August. The NBA's message to its players: Go ahead and decertify, but run the risk of voiding all current contracts while continuing to avoid our inevitable victory.

    The self-employment route is also a non-starter as a business strategy. Players are learning the hard way how vital the league's marketing machine is with sponsorship and television money. Exhibit A was there for all to see on Saturday night -- as long as you paid the $4.99 user fee charged by a startup basketball website that streamed the Drew League vs. Goodman League game.

    It didn't matter how many stars played in the East vs. West battle of pro-am leagues at Trinity University in Washington, D.C., as numerous major television networks (including ESPN and Fox Sports) passed on the chance to air the game because -- as one involved person surmised -- one night of good business with the millionaire talent wasn't worth ticking off the billionaire bosses. Which says nothing of the endless problems the event had with the online streaming, paying customers getting stuck outside the venue and players griping about the not-so-small officiating snafu, in which Drew players weren't told until the final minutes that they could not foul out.

    Some exhibition games overseas have proved to be plenty profitable for the players. But there's a limited shelf life for such opportunities and the All-Star style of competition is hardly enough to fuel their competitive fire.

    There is one reason, and one reason alone, why the players aren't rolling over in this labor standoff: the expectation/belief/hope that the owners will be divided at some point in time. It is their slightest sliver of hope, the reason they continue to scoff at the league's attempt at a collective bargaining overhaul intended to shore up the $300 million in losses it cites from last season, when 22 teams were said to be in the red. That offer from the owners features a $62 million "flex" salary cap, which the players say is a hard cap in disguise (compared to the current $58 million soft cap). The plan also includes a drastically reduced split on basketball-related income that would start out as a 50-50 split and eventually could result in less than 40 percent for the players in 2016-17 (compared to the current 57-43 split that favors the players or the 54 percent players' portion already offered in the union's latest proposal).

    The hoped-for fracture might start with Jerry Buss or Donald Sterling in Los Angeles, or Jerry Reinsdorf in Chicago, or James Dolan in New York. In the eyes of so many players and the folks who represent them, someone from a large market will eventually raise his hand and ask out of this lockout game. This owner would explain how the old system worked just fine for his team and how it's no longer in his best interest to support this cause.

    He would be followed by a few more of the fattest cats whose finances are just fine, and then there would be weeping from small- and mid-market owners who have dreamed of a system makeover. The players, who would have missed many months of paychecks by this hypothetical point, would rejoice in that seemingly plausible scenario.

    But here's the thing about this premise that has so much to do with the current state of affairs: I'm pretty sure it's wrong.

    There's nary a sign of the owners backing down. Not now. Not ever. Their lack of urgency is rooted in the unofficial and universal agreement that it's worth losing an entire season if there isn't serious progress forged by the players. And while the players' desire to fight back is certainly understandable, the truth is that this slope will only get more slippery if there isn't resolution in the next month.

    The owners' offers will get worse because they will begin to account for the losses that come with losing games, all while players -- whose average career length was reported as 4.82 seasons during the last lockout, in 1999 -- will see an entire season's pay go to waste. As one agent said for the umpteenth time last week, "Billionaires beat millionaires every time."

    While owners rake in local television revenues that continue during a lockout and offer the sort of financial bloodline union members could surely use right now, most of the players will start missing paychecks in mid-November. And maybe that's when the end game will finally become clear.

    That view has been reinforced in discussions with owners who sound just as militant now as they did a year ago. I've seen the gleeful look in a large-market owner's eye when he discusses the league's dream scenario, a system in which cost certainty aids the business side and the basketball landscape is more competitive because super teams like the one in Miami simply aren't possible anymore. I've inquired recently about the owners' level of unity, and heard the chuckle on the other end of the phone after asking if any of the big-city boys have expressed concern about the possibility of sacrificing an entire season to make these changes.

    Despite the league's threats of seven-figure fines for discussing the lockout or the ones being locked out, Bobcats owner Michael Jordan -- the boyhood idol to many in the league -- recently made clear his view that the players need to give in here.

    "The model we've been operating under is broken," he told the Sydney Herald Sun, while also discussing Australian native and Milwaukee center Andrew Bogut. "We have 22 or 23 teams losing money, [so] I think we have gotta come to some kind of understanding in this partnership that we have to realign."

    Yet even the words of His Airness aren't likely to spark a resolution anytime soon. The new system would create an earnings divide between the league's superstars and their less-talented colleagues almost as wide as the current negotiating gap, meaning the player masses (and their agents, of course) are left scrambling for ways to turn this labor tide.

    As described by one such agent who was briefed about the owners' proposal and what it would mean, a player such as Lakers forward Lamar Odom would see his salary plummet from $8.9 million to $2.6 million next season, according to the union officials putting on the presentation. Such stark propositions have created a climate that another agent recently deemed "odorous," with the bad blood and bitterness continuing to rise while the emotions do nothing to help with a solution.

    As commissioner David Stern asserted in a recent podcast with ESPN's Bill Simmons when asked about the absurd lack of urgency from all involved, a recent meeting that was scheduled between the two sides never took place because of the owners' refusal to heed the union's request for another proposal. And while the NBPA has been updating players and agents on the labor situation in a series of regional talks that will continue this week, it's the meetings that include both sides that are needed at the moment. Stern estimated the two would meet in the coming weeks, but it's not known whether those sessions have been scheduled yet.

    "[The owners] worrying who has the leverage today or momentum or how we can break the union, to me, misses the point," said New York-based agent Marc Cornstein, who is closer to the talks than most of his peers. "You have a sport that's in the healthiest place it's been in, some people would argue, ever. You have an economy and a world where there's complete turmoil and uncertainty. I think we need to start finding solutions, not leverage.

    "If we miss games, it would be detrimental to the sport. ... And that doesn't mean the players should accept a horrible deal, or the owners should accept one that's prohibitive for them, but no one is going to convince me we can't find a solution and I think it's time to start doing it."

    One league source said the next Board of Governors meeting has been scheduled for Sept. 15 in Dallas, where the owners will have their own gathering and -- just my prediction here -- no one will be asked to bring a white flag. Here's to hoping the players stop by to wave one of their own.

    I have more respect for a man who let's me know where he stands, even if he's wrong. Than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. - Malcolm X

    Comment

    • da ThRONe
      Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
      • Mar 2009
      • 8528

      #707
      Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

      Originally posted by Dice
      Another good article on why the players are fighting a loosing battle.


      As I stated before, the player should have took a page out of the MLBPA labor playbook and had a strike right before the end of the season. That to me would have been their only leverage against the owners. But that ship has passed. The 'playing overseas' tactic would have been a good strategy BUT not enough people are getting involved for it to be effective. And even if that was the case, it still would have been a long shot to win this labor dispute.
      I think anybody who's familiar with this dispute know this won't end well for the players and the longer this plays out the worse it will be.
      You looking at the Chair MAN!

      Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

      Comment

      • ProfessaPackMan
        Bamma
        • Mar 2008
        • 63852

        #708
        Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

        Originally posted by da ThRONe
        Once again it's a brilliant idea. You maximize profits while making a strong attempt at improving the regular season number right before you restructure your new tv deal with networks.

        Games will be easy to find and extra competitive. With 2-5 days rest inbetween games guys will be well rested throughout the season which will mean less injuries. With the new salary cap rules. The talent will be more even. So you can afford to give more teams primetime games.

        With 56 games and four less teams in the playoffs every game is just that much more important. That IMO makes pro hoops a tv league as opposed to more of an attendance league.
        No.

        Just...just no.
        #RespectTheCulture

        Comment

        • 23
          yellow
          • Sep 2002
          • 66469

          #709
          Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

          Yeah man just let go of that short season thing.. its NOT going to happen

          Comment

          • ProfessaPackMan
            Bamma
            • Mar 2008
            • 63852

            #710
            Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

            Let's break this down here:

            Reduced the season by 26 games. Each team would play two games per week.
            Why only 2 games per week? Are you really gonna need 4 days of practice(Practice!?!?)to beat the likes of the T-Wolves and Clippers and Wizards?

            Start the season on Christmas day every year.
            No, no, no.

            If you wanna gain interest from the "casuals" or people just getting into the NBA, you either start it in February right after the NFL Season wraps up or nobody is going to pay much attention to the NBA if you start it in December, especially in the middle of NFL Playoff Push.

            Schedule all games Tuesday and Thursday nights, and Saturday mornings and afternoons
            Sundays and Thursdays would make a hell of a lot more sense than Tuesday and Saturday Mornings/Afternoons. And let's be honest, who's really going to spend their Saturday Morning/Afternoons watching meaningless NBA games?

            Reduced the number of teams in the playoffs. Rewarding the top two seeds with a bye
            No need to reduce teams because that isn't a problem nor is it THE problem.

            Reduced the playoffs series to best of 5 throughout.
            This isn't the problem either. The problem is having the 2-3 day breaks between each of the first 3 games in the 1st Round, allowing it to take 2 weeks to finish that when the 1st Round should be done in no more than a week and a half.
            #RespectTheCulture

            Comment

            • da ThRONe
              Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
              • Mar 2009
              • 8528

              #711
              Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

              Originally posted by 23
              Yeah man just let go of that short season thing.. its NOT going to happen
              Whether or not they choose to do so doesn't make it any less a good idea or talking point.
              You looking at the Chair MAN!

              Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

              Comment

              • 23
                yellow
                • Sep 2002
                • 66469

                #712
                Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                Its not a good idea though, never has been

                Comment

                • da ThRONe
                  Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
                  • Mar 2009
                  • 8528

                  #713
                  Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                  Originally posted by ProfessaPackMan
                  Let's break this down here:


                  Why only 2 games per week? Are you really gonna need 4 days of practice(Practice!?!?)to beat the likes of the T-Wolves and Clippers and Wizards?
                  It's for symmetry and fairness


                  No, no, no.

                  If you wanna gain interest from the "casuals" or people just getting into the NBA, you either start it in February right after the NFL Season wraps up or nobody is going to pay much attention to the NBA if you start it in December, especially in the middle of NFL Playoff Push.
                  I'm not against the season starting in late Jan or Feb. I think there's a certain buzz around the the beginning of the season, but I agree watching til after the playoff push would make more sense for what would be the goal.


                  Sundays and Thursdays would make a hell of a lot more sense than Tuesday and Saturday Mornings/Afternoons. And let's be honest, who's really going to spend their Saturday Morning/Afternoons watching meaningless NBA games?
                  Really I just pulled days out of my ***.LOL As long as it's the same days at the same time purpose filled. Since I had the league starting while football was still in regular season I couldn't pick Sun. I'm sure the league would do research to figure out what 2-3 days are best.


                  No need to reduce teams because that isn't a problem nor is it THE problem.
                  Over 50% of the league makes it to the post season. IMO and most people I know that's too many. As much as I hate first round bye's making the playoffs should mean you did well in the regular season.


                  This isn't the problem either. The problem is having the 2-3 day breaks between each of the first 3 games in the 1st Round, allowing it to take 2 weeks to finish that when the 1st Round should be done in no more than a week and a half.
                  I agree the space in between games are excessive. 1day break between home games and 2days between away games. I think having game 7's like atmosphere more often is better and also held shorten the playoffs.
                  You looking at the Chair MAN!

                  Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

                  Comment

                  • da ThRONe
                    Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
                    • Mar 2009
                    • 8528

                    #714
                    Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                    Originally posted by 23
                    Its not a good idea though, never has been
                    That's your opinion. One that probably leaves you in the minority. Some of you have a strong tendency of deciding what's good and bad based off of what you want. With a league that's cliaming to be operating in the red clearly the current format isn't working.

                    So why is it a bad idea because you like 82 games?
                    You looking at the Chair MAN!

                    Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

                    Comment

                    • Dice
                      Sitting by the door
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 6627

                      #715
                      Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                      Originally posted by da ThRONe
                      That's your opinion. One that probably leaves you in the minority. Some of you have a strong tendency of deciding what's good and bad based off of what you want. With a league that's cliaming to be operating in the red clearly the current format isn't working.

                      So why is it a bad idea because you like 82 games?
                      Your the one who seems to be in the minority in this disscussion. I'm still not getting at at this theory you have of reduction of games bringing more value. Just because this works in college basketball doesn't mean it's going to work in the NBA. The 82 game schedule has never lost the league money. Not in the past, not now, and not in the future.
                      I have more respect for a man who let's me know where he stands, even if he's wrong. Than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. - Malcolm X

                      Comment

                      • da ThRONe
                        Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
                        • Mar 2009
                        • 8528

                        #716
                        Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                        Originally posted by Dice
                        Your the one who seems to be in the minority in this disscussion. I'm still not getting at at this theory you have of reduction of games bringing more value. Just because this works in college basketball doesn't mean it's going to work in the NBA. The 82 game schedule has never lost the league money. Not in the past, not now, and not in the future.
                        The real money in sports are in tv dollars. The more entertaining your league is the more money you can extract in tv dollars. You can only gain so much from attendance while the earning potential on tv dollars are endless. IMO lengthy regular season make the NBA a "volume league". I think the money is in high percentage viewing not over saturating the networks with games.

                        I may be the minority among hardcore fans who seems to prefer quantity over quality. But every time I interact with causal fans about basketball they don't care til it's playoff time. But them caring about the regular season is where the massive profits are.
                        You looking at the Chair MAN!

                        Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

                        Comment

                        • da ThRONe
                          Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
                          • Mar 2009
                          • 8528

                          #717
                          Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                          Just did the numbers

                          league overall capacity(seats*games)

                          NFL -34,884,656
                          NBA- 47,291,286

                          league overall attendance average

                          NFL-94.5%
                          NBA-90.6%

                          average ticket price

                          NFL-75
                          NBA-48

                          overall money through attendance

                          NFL-2,472,449,994
                          NBA-2,056,603,445

                          As you can see despite the NBA having over 12million more in potential capacity the NFL is ahead in attendance money in over 400million. Things like avg. attendance and avg. ticket prices makes the difference.

                          This does not take into account tv. deals, and expenses. This is just solely income based on attendance.
                          You looking at the Chair MAN!

                          Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

                          Comment

                          • da ThRONe
                            Fire LesS Miles ASAP!
                            • Mar 2009
                            • 8528

                            #718
                            Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                            To keep things in prospective.

                            The NBA grossed 3.8 billion, 54.3% of that was attendance. The NFL made made 9.8billion dollars, 25.5% of that was attendance.
                            You looking at the Chair MAN!

                            Number may not tell the whole story ,but they never lie either.

                            Comment

                            • ProfessaPackMan
                              Bamma
                              • Mar 2008
                              • 63852

                              #719
                              Originally posted by da ThRONe
                              It's for symmetry and fairness




                              I'm not against the season starting in late Jan or Feb. I think there's a certain buzz around the the beginning of the season, but I agree watching til after the playoff push would make more sense for what would be the goal.




                              Really I just pulled days out of my ***.LOL As long as it's the same days at the same time purpose filled. Since I had the league starting while football was still in regular season I couldn't pick Sun. I'm sure the league would do research to figure out what 2-3 days are best.


                              Over 50% of the league makes it to the post season. IMO and most people I know that's too many. As much as I hate first round bye's making the playoffs should mean you did well in the regular season.




                              I agree the space in between games are excessive. 1day break between home games and 2days between away games. I think having game 7's like atmosphere more often is better and also held shorten the playoffs.
                              1. WTF is this fairness stuff? You and I both know there is no such thing as "fairness" in Sports, especially in the NBA.

                              2. The number of playoff teams is not nor has it been a problem at all. You never here anyone say "Man there's too many teams in the playoffs". If you're going to cut down teams then you might as well go the Baseball route but now they're trying to add MORE teams to the playoffs. The only thing I'd change is to have the 1st round go back to a 5 game format.
                              #RespectTheCulture

                              Comment

                              • yankeesgiants
                                I Drink Like A Champion!!
                                • Feb 2007
                                • 2477

                                #720
                                Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

                                Originally posted by da ThRONe
                                Just did the numbers

                                league overall capacity(seats*games)

                                NFL -34,884,656
                                NBA- 47,291,286

                                league overall attendance average

                                NFL-94.5%
                                NBA-90.6%

                                average ticket price

                                NFL-75
                                NBA-48

                                overall money through attendance

                                NFL-2,472,449,994
                                NBA-2,056,603,445

                                As you can see despite the NBA having over 12million more in potential capacity the NFL is ahead in attendance money in over 400million. Things like avg. attendance and avg. ticket prices makes the difference.

                                This does not take into account tv. deals, and expenses. This is just solely income based on attendance.
                                That is because of 72 hour blackout rule. NBA has no such rule. The rule is in place to protect local affliates within a 50 mile radius of the home team. This rule has been there since the merger.
                                I dont remember there names but they were allot of fun....

                                Comment

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