Michael Jordan - The Legend

**studman** · 06-10-2004, 10:35 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

begin sarcasm:

i guess the 80s and 90s poor defenses is why jordan scored so many points in the playoffs and todays defense is why Kobe was held to 0 pts in a first half game already this postseason and 1 pt in game 3 against the Pistons.

yes, the defenses are everything and if Jordan played for the Lakers he would've only scored 1 pt at the half tonight too....

:end sarcasm

**HMcCoy** · 06-10-2004, 11:11 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
KDRE said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
poster said:
Not bashing your point, you make good ones, but Kobe has done great things also. Didnt he beat Jordan's record of consecutive 40 pt games, plus in those games he had some triple doubles as well. I think the reason this arguement comes up is that Jordan is his idol and he strives to be him. I think Kobe has earned alot and if he played on a bad team to start his career he might have awards too. We'll never know. If Jordan played with shaq early in his career he would never have had the numbers he did because he would have to share. those early bulls teams were sad, not his fault, but not Kobe's fault for playing with shaq. I have seen both players play. You are measuered my clutch play in big games and in championships and they both excelled better than most before them. Might be silly but anyone who saw wilt in his prime could say the same thing about jordan fans no matter how the league was back then. Good talking to you

<hr /></blockquote>

This is the problem. Kobe will never be Jordan. You turn on ESPN, and that's all they are saying. When? They really started after his last shot. They are so desperate for the next big thing, that this guy gets more credit that Shaq should get, and they have just decided for themselves that he is another MJ. Some Kobe fans have taken this to heart, and look at the amount of comparison threads just for instance. It's asinine. Kobe is not better than Magic, Bird, and neither has he impacted the game the way they have, let alone MJ. Compare Kobe to the guys he plays with now. He's not even the most dominant player on his own team. He does not pass the ball as he should. If he did, Shaq would not complain as much as he does, as long as he has been doing it

Kobe has equals and guys in the L at his position that can do things the same as him, and even better. You didn't have that with MJ. By his 3rd year, you could say lock the case up, becuase MJ played like a possessed man. He locked up every single award a man could get, and his game was so advanced that he was always a step ahead of everyone, and guys are just now figuring out things he knew back when.

Right now, Kobe is nothing more than a second fiddle man to Shaq.

<hr /></blockquote>

Greg Anthony said today that while MJ is a superior defender, Kobe is a better scorer at age 25. Before you give Greg one of these,

or one of these,

please see my defenses are better now/defense is about athleticism so more athletic league = tighter defensive league post above.

**HMcCoy** · 06-10-2004, 11:11 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
KDRE said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
poster said:
Not bashing your point, you make good ones, but Kobe has done great things also. Didnt he beat Jordan's record of consecutive 40 pt games, plus in those games he had some triple doubles as well. I think the reason this arguement comes up is that Jordan is his idol and he strives to be him. I think Kobe has earned alot and if he played on a bad team to start his career he might have awards too. We'll never know. If Jordan played with shaq early in his career he would never have had the numbers he did because he would have to share. those early bulls teams were sad, not his fault, but not Kobe's fault for playing with shaq. I have seen both players play. You are measuered my clutch play in big games and in championships and they both excelled better than most before them. Might be silly but anyone who saw wilt in his prime could say the same thing about jordan fans no matter how the league was back then. Good talking to you

<hr /></blockquote>

This is the problem. Kobe will never be Jordan. You turn on ESPN, and that's all they are saying. When? They really started after his last shot. They are so desperate for the next big thing, that this guy gets more credit that Shaq should get, and they have just decided for themselves that he is another MJ. Some Kobe fans have taken this to heart, and look at the amount of comparison threads just for instance. It's asinine. Kobe is not better than Magic, Bird, and neither has he impacted the game the way they have, let alone MJ. Compare Kobe to the guys he plays with now. He's not even the most dominant player on his own team. He does not pass the ball as he should. If he did, Shaq would not complain as much as he does, as long as he has been doing it

Kobe has equals and guys in the L at his position that can do things the same as him, and even better. You didn't have that with MJ. By his 3rd year, you could say lock the case up, becuase MJ played like a possessed man. He locked up every single award a man could get, and his game was so advanced that he was always a step ahead of everyone, and guys are just now figuring out things he knew back when.

Right now, Kobe is nothing more than a second fiddle man to Shaq.

<hr /></blockquote>

Greg Anthony said today that while MJ is a superior defender, Kobe is a better scorer at age 25. Before you give Greg one of these,

or one of these,

please see my defenses are better now/defense is about athleticism so more athletic league = tighter defensive league post above.

**HMcCoy** · 06-10-2004, 11:11 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
KDRE said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
poster said:
Not bashing your point, you make good ones, but Kobe has done great things also. Didnt he beat Jordan's record of consecutive 40 pt games, plus in those games he had some triple doubles as well. I think the reason this arguement comes up is that Jordan is his idol and he strives to be him. I think Kobe has earned alot and if he played on a bad team to start his career he might have awards too. We'll never know. If Jordan played with shaq early in his career he would never have had the numbers he did because he would have to share. those early bulls teams were sad, not his fault, but not Kobe's fault for playing with shaq. I have seen both players play. You are measuered my clutch play in big games and in championships and they both excelled better than most before them. Might be silly but anyone who saw wilt in his prime could say the same thing about jordan fans no matter how the league was back then. Good talking to you

<hr /></blockquote>

This is the problem. Kobe will never be Jordan. You turn on ESPN, and that's all they are saying. When? They really started after his last shot. They are so desperate for the next big thing, that this guy gets more credit that Shaq should get, and they have just decided for themselves that he is another MJ. Some Kobe fans have taken this to heart, and look at the amount of comparison threads just for instance. It's asinine. Kobe is not better than Magic, Bird, and neither has he impacted the game the way they have, let alone MJ. Compare Kobe to the guys he plays with now. He's not even the most dominant player on his own team. He does not pass the ball as he should. If he did, Shaq would not complain as much as he does, as long as he has been doing it

Kobe has equals and guys in the L at his position that can do things the same as him, and even better. You didn't have that with MJ. By his 3rd year, you could say lock the case up, becuase MJ played like a possessed man. He locked up every single award a man could get, and his game was so advanced that he was always a step ahead of everyone, and guys are just now figuring out things he knew back when.

Right now, Kobe is nothing more than a second fiddle man to Shaq.

<hr /></blockquote>

Greg Anthony said today that while MJ is a superior defender, Kobe is a better scorer at age 25. Before you give Greg one of these,

or one of these,

please see my defenses are better now/defense is about athleticism so more athletic league = tighter defensive league post above.

**HMcCoy** · 06-10-2004, 11:25 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Air23 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
KDRE said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
poster said:
Great post McCoy, I often wonder why no one gives Wilt props like Babe Ruth gets props. And Jordan was amazing no doubt, but Kobe has done more at his age than Jordan. If Kobe played in the mid 80's with no defense he would easily have shot over 50% without a doubt. Defense didnt come into play until the bad boys, and then phil taught the bulls defense to win. Both are great but by the time he's done Kobe could have a career as eventful no matter what people think.

<hr /></blockquote>

Wilt should get all the props in the world, and noone takes anything from Wilt at all. He played when things were different. The lane was smaller, there was no 3 seconds, etc..., but he is/was great. I don't see anyone calling Shaq Wilt.

As for your statement, MJ did too many things for you to say Kobe is better now. He won virtually every award in the NBA that year, and went on a stretch of games where he averaged triple dips, and just dominated, even the best in the game. I think it's unfair that you guys are trying to hand Kobe something he hasn't earned as did MJ. This man took basketball global. He took the NBA to a new level, he made the game standard people always look to.

This is silly anyhow. For people to say anybody in todays NBA is in MJ's ballpark is silly. Unless you didn't see the man play it is hard to make these claims with a straight face.

<hr /></blockquote>

Thank you, KDRE. Folks forget at 25, MJ won the League MVP award, the Defensive Player of the Year award, the All-Star Game MVP award, led his team to 50 wins before losing to a rising Pistons team, averaged 35.0 ppg, 54% fg, 84% ft, 5.5 rpg, 6 apg, 3.16 spg (over 100 steals that year), and 1.6 bpg (over 100 blocks that year).

<hr /></blockquote>

And YOU forgot that until Kobe gets the same latitude that MJ, T-Mac, AI, and PP get you have no indication that he CAN'T reach that level. The first taste of freedom Kobe got, the league got

itted on. String of 40+ point games sound familiar?

**HMcCoy** · 06-10-2004, 11:25 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Air23 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
KDRE said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
poster said:
Great post McCoy, I often wonder why no one gives Wilt props like Babe Ruth gets props. And Jordan was amazing no doubt, but Kobe has done more at his age than Jordan. If Kobe played in the mid 80's with no defense he would easily have shot over 50% without a doubt. Defense didnt come into play until the bad boys, and then phil taught the bulls defense to win. Both are great but by the time he's done Kobe could have a career as eventful no matter what people think.

<hr /></blockquote>

Wilt should get all the props in the world, and noone takes anything from Wilt at all. He played when things were different. The lane was smaller, there was no 3 seconds, etc..., but he is/was great. I don't see anyone calling Shaq Wilt.

As for your statement, MJ did too many things for you to say Kobe is better now. He won virtually every award in the NBA that year, and went on a stretch of games where he averaged triple dips, and just dominated, even the best in the game. I think it's unfair that you guys are trying to hand Kobe something he hasn't earned as did MJ. This man took basketball global. He took the NBA to a new level, he made the game standard people always look to.

This is silly anyhow. For people to say anybody in todays NBA is in MJ's ballpark is silly. Unless you didn't see the man play it is hard to make these claims with a straight face.

<hr /></blockquote>

Thank you, KDRE. Folks forget at 25, MJ won the League MVP award, the Defensive Player of the Year award, the All-Star Game MVP award, led his team to 50 wins before losing to a rising Pistons team, averaged 35.0 ppg, 54% fg, 84% ft, 5.5 rpg, 6 apg, 3.16 spg (over 100 steals that year), and 1.6 bpg (over 100 blocks that year).

<hr /></blockquote>

And YOU forgot that until Kobe gets the same latitude that MJ, T-Mac, AI, and PP get you have no indication that he CAN'T reach that level. The first taste of freedom Kobe got, the league got

itted on. String of 40+ point games sound familiar?

**HMcCoy** · 06-10-2004, 11:25 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Air23 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
KDRE said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
poster said:
Great post McCoy, I often wonder why no one gives Wilt props like Babe Ruth gets props. And Jordan was amazing no doubt, but Kobe has done more at his age than Jordan. If Kobe played in the mid 80's with no defense he would easily have shot over 50% without a doubt. Defense didnt come into play until the bad boys, and then phil taught the bulls defense to win. Both are great but by the time he's done Kobe could have a career as eventful no matter what people think.

<hr /></blockquote>

Wilt should get all the props in the world, and noone takes anything from Wilt at all. He played when things were different. The lane was smaller, there was no 3 seconds, etc..., but he is/was great. I don't see anyone calling Shaq Wilt.

As for your statement, MJ did too many things for you to say Kobe is better now. He won virtually every award in the NBA that year, and went on a stretch of games where he averaged triple dips, and just dominated, even the best in the game. I think it's unfair that you guys are trying to hand Kobe something he hasn't earned as did MJ. This man took basketball global. He took the NBA to a new level, he made the game standard people always look to.

This is silly anyhow. For people to say anybody in todays NBA is in MJ's ballpark is silly. Unless you didn't see the man play it is hard to make these claims with a straight face.

<hr /></blockquote>

Thank you, KDRE. Folks forget at 25, MJ won the League MVP award, the Defensive Player of the Year award, the All-Star Game MVP award, led his team to 50 wins before losing to a rising Pistons team, averaged 35.0 ppg, 54% fg, 84% ft, 5.5 rpg, 6 apg, 3.16 spg (over 100 steals that year), and 1.6 bpg (over 100 blocks that year).

<hr /></blockquote>

And YOU forgot that until Kobe gets the same latitude that MJ, T-Mac, AI, and PP get you have no indication that he CAN'T reach that level. The first taste of freedom Kobe got, the league got

itted on. String of 40+ point games sound familiar?

**HMcCoy** · 06-10-2004, 11:37 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Sarah said:
Sadly, I can say that you guys made a weak comparison between Kobe and Jordan. You are all just looking at statistics and who scored the most points and who shoot the winning shot.

Jordan is great not because he can score 30 points every night. He became great because he could make the players around him good and great. He made Pippen great from good, Longley from a bench player to a role player, Horace Grant became good from average, Paxson and Armstrong from nobody to become a good clutch and 3 point shooters. Ron Harper became a respected PG in the league, Bison Dele from nobody to become a descent PF that went to Detroit. Jordan's floor leadership and combined with his skills made him one of the greatest players to ever walk on the NBA.

Look what happen to those players after Jordan left, Kokuc was lost somewhere in the NBA and never heard from, Longley went back to his old role as a bench warmer, Harper dissapeared, and Rodman can't find a team to play with. Only a few players from Jordan's Bulls retain there skills, Pippen, Bison Dele, Steve Kerr as a 3 point and clutch shooter, Horace Grant before his age caught up with him. But one thing is for sure, those guys where never the same since Jordan left.

It might look like the Bulls lineup during there reign are stronger than what you guys compared, but also have to consider that those where also the years where 7 of the NBA's 50 greatest of all time are still playing on there prime. Charles Barkley, Ewing, Olajuwon, Malone, Stockton, Drexler, and David Robinson. Plus the Bulls also vanquished Shaq and Penny's Orlando Magic in the Eastern Playoffs. Right now the only player that is part of the 50 greatest player of all time and still on his prime is Shaq. And guess who is that big guy Kobe is playing with.

It's BIG DADDY SHAQ.

<hr /></blockquote>

That sucky Jordan "made us so much better" team won 55 games when MJ retired. Today that would have tied them with the Kings for 4th in the west. WITHOUT MJ.

Add Kobe to the Kings, and tell me who wins the title this year...

**HMcCoy** · 06-10-2004, 11:37 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Sarah said:
Sadly, I can say that you guys made a weak comparison between Kobe and Jordan. You are all just looking at statistics and who scored the most points and who shoot the winning shot.

Jordan is great not because he can score 30 points every night. He became great because he could make the players around him good and great. He made Pippen great from good, Longley from a bench player to a role player, Horace Grant became good from average, Paxson and Armstrong from nobody to become a good clutch and 3 point shooters. Ron Harper became a respected PG in the league, Bison Dele from nobody to become a descent PF that went to Detroit. Jordan's floor leadership and combined with his skills made him one of the greatest players to ever walk on the NBA.

Look what happen to those players after Jordan left, Kokuc was lost somewhere in the NBA and never heard from, Longley went back to his old role as a bench warmer, Harper dissapeared, and Rodman can't find a team to play with. Only a few players from Jordan's Bulls retain there skills, Pippen, Bison Dele, Steve Kerr as a 3 point and clutch shooter, Horace Grant before his age caught up with him. But one thing is for sure, those guys where never the same since Jordan left.

It might look like the Bulls lineup during there reign are stronger than what you guys compared, but also have to consider that those where also the years where 7 of the NBA's 50 greatest of all time are still playing on there prime. Charles Barkley, Ewing, Olajuwon, Malone, Stockton, Drexler, and David Robinson. Plus the Bulls also vanquished Shaq and Penny's Orlando Magic in the Eastern Playoffs. Right now the only player that is part of the 50 greatest player of all time and still on his prime is Shaq. And guess who is that big guy Kobe is playing with.

It's BIG DADDY SHAQ.

<hr /></blockquote>

That sucky Jordan "made us so much better" team won 55 games when MJ retired. Today that would have tied them with the Kings for 4th in the west. WITHOUT MJ.

Add Kobe to the Kings, and tell me who wins the title this year...

**HMcCoy** · 06-10-2004, 11:37 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Sarah said:
Sadly, I can say that you guys made a weak comparison between Kobe and Jordan. You are all just looking at statistics and who scored the most points and who shoot the winning shot.

Jordan is great not because he can score 30 points every night. He became great because he could make the players around him good and great. He made Pippen great from good, Longley from a bench player to a role player, Horace Grant became good from average, Paxson and Armstrong from nobody to become a good clutch and 3 point shooters. Ron Harper became a respected PG in the league, Bison Dele from nobody to become a descent PF that went to Detroit. Jordan's floor leadership and combined with his skills made him one of the greatest players to ever walk on the NBA.

Look what happen to those players after Jordan left, Kokuc was lost somewhere in the NBA and never heard from, Longley went back to his old role as a bench warmer, Harper dissapeared, and Rodman can't find a team to play with. Only a few players from Jordan's Bulls retain there skills, Pippen, Bison Dele, Steve Kerr as a 3 point and clutch shooter, Horace Grant before his age caught up with him. But one thing is for sure, those guys where never the same since Jordan left.

It might look like the Bulls lineup during there reign are stronger than what you guys compared, but also have to consider that those where also the years where 7 of the NBA's 50 greatest of all time are still playing on there prime. Charles Barkley, Ewing, Olajuwon, Malone, Stockton, Drexler, and David Robinson. Plus the Bulls also vanquished Shaq and Penny's Orlando Magic in the Eastern Playoffs. Right now the only player that is part of the 50 greatest player of all time and still on his prime is Shaq. And guess who is that big guy Kobe is playing with.

It's BIG DADDY SHAQ.

<hr /></blockquote>

That sucky Jordan "made us so much better" team won 55 games when MJ retired. Today that would have tied them with the Kings for 4th in the west. WITHOUT MJ.

Add Kobe to the Kings, and tell me who wins the title this year...

**HMcCoy** · 06-10-2004, 11:43 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
KDRE said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Air23 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
poster said:
Great post McCoy, I often wonder why no one gives Wilt props like Babe Ruth gets props. And Jordan was amazing no doubt, but Kobe has done more at his age than Jordan. If Kobe played in the mid 80's with no defense he would easily have shot over 50% without a doubt. Defense didnt come into play until the bad boys, and then phil taught the bulls defense to win. Both are great but by the time he's done Kobe could have a career as eventful no matter what people think.

<hr /></blockquote>

You do realise that 1) Kobe has had Shaq on his team, and 2) defenses in the 80's were WAY better than they are today and players were were WAY more skilled and just as athletic as they are today, right?

I like Kobe (he's one of my favorite players today), but answer this: put Kobe on MJ's Bulls teams with the same opposition MJ faced (way more better teams than today and that is a fact)--do you think Kobe's team would be as successful as MJ's?

<hr /></blockquote>

No. The Bad Boys would kill him and we all know it. Talking about having a PG problem. DET would wipe the floor with this Lakers team including Kobe.

<hr /></blockquote>

And who exactly would check Shaq? Lambier?

**HMcCoy** · 06-10-2004, 11:43 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
KDRE said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Air23 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
poster said:
Great post McCoy, I often wonder why no one gives Wilt props like Babe Ruth gets props. And Jordan was amazing no doubt, but Kobe has done more at his age than Jordan. If Kobe played in the mid 80's with no defense he would easily have shot over 50% without a doubt. Defense didnt come into play until the bad boys, and then phil taught the bulls defense to win. Both are great but by the time he's done Kobe could have a career as eventful no matter what people think.

<hr /></blockquote>

You do realise that 1) Kobe has had Shaq on his team, and 2) defenses in the 80's were WAY better than they are today and players were were WAY more skilled and just as athletic as they are today, right?

I like Kobe (he's one of my favorite players today), but answer this: put Kobe on MJ's Bulls teams with the same opposition MJ faced (way more better teams than today and that is a fact)--do you think Kobe's team would be as successful as MJ's?

<hr /></blockquote>

No. The Bad Boys would kill him and we all know it. Talking about having a PG problem. DET would wipe the floor with this Lakers team including Kobe.

<hr /></blockquote>

And who exactly would check Shaq? Lambier?

**HMcCoy** · 06-10-2004, 11:43 PM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
KDRE said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Air23 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
poster said:
Great post McCoy, I often wonder why no one gives Wilt props like Babe Ruth gets props. And Jordan was amazing no doubt, but Kobe has done more at his age than Jordan. If Kobe played in the mid 80's with no defense he would easily have shot over 50% without a doubt. Defense didnt come into play until the bad boys, and then phil taught the bulls defense to win. Both are great but by the time he's done Kobe could have a career as eventful no matter what people think.

<hr /></blockquote>

You do realise that 1) Kobe has had Shaq on his team, and 2) defenses in the 80's were WAY better than they are today and players were were WAY more skilled and just as athletic as they are today, right?

I like Kobe (he's one of my favorite players today), but answer this: put Kobe on MJ's Bulls teams with the same opposition MJ faced (way more better teams than today and that is a fact)--do you think Kobe's team would be as successful as MJ's?

<hr /></blockquote>

No. The Bad Boys would kill him and we all know it. Talking about having a PG problem. DET would wipe the floor with this Lakers team including Kobe.

<hr /></blockquote>

And who exactly would check Shaq? Lambier?

23 · 06-11-2004, 12:04 AM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And YOU forgot that until Kobe gets the same latitude that MJ, T-Mac, AI, and PP get you have no indication that he CAN'T reach that level. The first taste of freedom Kobe got, the league got itted on. String of 40+ point games sound familiar?

<hr /></blockquote>

Last year Kobe shot more than Tmac and Tmac still scored more, and won the scoring title. Even with Kobe ball hogging. That's why Shaq complains about passing the ball into him.

Point is, MJ is the GOAT, and Kobe is Shaq's shadowman his whole career.

23 · 06-11-2004, 12:04 AM

Re: Michael Jordan - The Legend

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And YOU forgot that until Kobe gets the same latitude that MJ, T-Mac, AI, and PP get you have no indication that he CAN'T reach that level. The first taste of freedom Kobe got, the league got itted on. String of 40+ point games sound familiar?

<hr /></blockquote>

Last year Kobe shot more than Tmac and Tmac still scored more, and won the scoring title. Even with Kobe ball hogging. That's why Shaq complains about passing the ball into him.

Point is, MJ is the GOAT, and Kobe is Shaq's shadowman his whole career.

Michael Jordan - The Legend

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