Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

[OneBadMutha]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

So many great moves there but I went with the obvious one which was getting Ben Wallace for Grant Hill. Losing Grant Hill really wasn't Dumars choice but using the cap space to entice Ben Wallace and then force a sign a trade was all Joe. I remember at the time listening to some media people on the radio saying how stupid it was for Dumars to waste all that free cap money from losing Grant Hill on Ben Wallace. A lot of media people thought that Detroit should've pulled a tank job and saved their cap money and hoped for a top 3 pick instead. Wallace was the heart and soul of the team when it sucked and is the only remaining remember from Detroit's first year without Hill. Without Wallace Detroit wouldn't have been good enough to entice the likes of Chauncy or Larry Brown.

[OneBadMutha]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
jacobaaron said:
I have been a fan of the Pistons for as long as I've been a fan of the game, 19 years. But to be honest, I think people give Dumars way too much credit for this team's success. I mean, if anyone should get a ring for this year in the front office, it should be Danny Ainge. He basically took on a contract, in order to help you guys out with the Rasheed deal. That seems odd, no matter how you look at it. What would have been his incentive to do that with a team in the same conference? Also, Dumars lucked out by having the 2nd pick in the draft this past year fall in his lap. Did he do anything to get the pick such as trading for it? No, the previous GM did. Basically everyone knew that Grant had decided to leave, and both he and Dumars agreed to the sign and trade because it had been speculated that Wallace was coming to Detroit anyway, and Dumars wanted to help Hill get his money. To me, all of the deals seem to be more of a lucky streak than Joe Dumars doing a wonderful job. I understand there are several pistons fans here, but it's time to jump off his sack and remember that he did not make most of those deals happen alone.

So, in short, the obvious choice is hiring Larry Brown, for the quick fix. Lord knows, he won't be there for more than 6 years. The true test for Dumars will be in the next couple of years. Will he be able to keep Rasheed and Mehmet Okur? Will he be able to keep Larry Brown interested after they win the championship; assuming they do win it. What kind of depth will the team have next season? All of these questions are still up in the air.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Wow. Are you one of those guys still bitter about Melo? Luck? How do you figure. The only real strokes of luck that Dumars didn't create was the fact that G Hill didn't want to stay here and he got the #2 pick which he used for the next generation of the Pistons and didn't even need it for this year's Championship run.

While it wasn't Dumars decision for G Hill to go, it's likely that he would've pursued Ben Wallace regardless. He admitted to having an eye on Wallace even when Hill was still in the fold. A lot of people thought that it was stupid for Detroit to pay so much money for Wallace instead of save the cap space for another superstar available down the road.

Trading Stack for Hamilton was a brilliant move. Stack was considered Detroit's only real star and was the only guy who could draw fans at the time. Hamilton wasn't well known and this was another deal smashed by the media. Joe did this for chemistry reasons because he didn't think that Stack was good enough to be this guy who took 25 shots even though Stack felt he deserved those shots. Now he's a cancer in Washington who they want to get rid of.

Chauncy was another great move by Dumars. Nobody in the media made it out to be a big story when Detroit aquired Chauncy for the full MLE. Not only was it smart for Joe to make Chauncy his #1 priority that off-season but he also had to sell Detroit to Chauncy and did a good job of that obviously.

Tayshaun was a great draft pick by Dumars. At the time, Joe owed a pick from a deal the Pistons previously made from the Doug Collins era and Joe said that if Tay wasn't availalbe, he would've fullfilled that deal and gave that pick away. On some mock draft boards, Tay was a 2nd round pick. It's not like it was some guy who luckily dropped to Joe. He was one of the few that believed this guy was the real deal. Chuck Daly said on the radio that when he was doing scouting for Phoenix, they didn't think he was good enough to be a first rounder or play in the league because he was too frail.

While Atlanta and Boston have some bad GMs, give Joe the credit for being the guy to take advantage of the situation. Also let's not forget that in order for Joe to make that deal, he needed 2 first round picks. How did he have those 2 picks? Both were obtained by cutting his loses on his previous bad decisions. He traded Rodney White for the Milwakee pick and he traded Cleaves for Barry and a future first round pick which he then used to cut a deal with Sacramento to call it even so that Detroit no longer owed that pick from the Doug Collins era. In essence, Detroit traded Rodney White, Cleaves, and some expiring contracts for Sheed.

Don't forget about getting Barry and Robinson for nothing. While they aren't here now, both were important in Detroit's resurgence and who knows how attractive Detroit would've been to Chauncy without the wins that those guys helped bring. Also Robinson was traded for the expiring contract of Sura who was necessary in the Sheed deal.

While Memo is likely gone after this year, give credit for Joe to spot him in the 2nd round when everyone thought he was stupid for passing up on Loren Woods with the same pick.

Then there was the drafting of Delfino with the 25th pick. Again there was better known names at the time but if Delfino wasn't drafted last year, he would be coming into this year's draft as a pretty polished top 10 pick.

For all the crap Joe gets about passing on Melo, I'll contend that he was correct in passing on him regardless as to how long Darko develops. I think Melo would've brought over the Stackhouse syndrome to a team that relies on chemistry. I also doubt that Prince would've developed as fast if there was the Melo controversy behind him. Unlike some people, I also believe that Darko will be the real deal and he will likely be coming into his own just in time as the Wallace's start to get older and slower.

Then there's the final cherry on top with Larry Brown. Who in the media thought this was a good move? Again Joe went against the grain and made the right decision. The players are much happier playing for LB than they were for Carlisle and I don't think that the Pistons would've been as good against New Jersey, Indiana, and L.A. with their old system. LB has made the players better and more well rounded which allows him to make more adjustments. If Joe would've done the safe PR thing and kept Carlisle, the Pistons might've had a mutiny much like New Jersey had with Scott. Once Carlisle was gone, the players didn't have a problem admitting their dislike for him.

So the bottom line is which GMs in the NBA would've made all those moves? Most were controversial or weren't considered great moves at the time and they've all turned out to be the right moves. In terms of Detroit's future, even if they lose Okur while keeping Sheed, Detroit will return their entire starting lineup and will likely be better off the bench next year. The bench hasn't really saved Detroit's [censored] much in the last 2 rounds and another year for Darko and the addition of Delfino should automatically give them more skill off the bench. As long as Detroit keeps some veteran leaders off the bench, they should be better next year. The truth of the matter is Detroit's window of opportunity is just starting to open.

[OneBadMutha]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
jacobaaron said:
I have been a fan of the Pistons for as long as I've been a fan of the game, 19 years. But to be honest, I think people give Dumars way too much credit for this team's success. I mean, if anyone should get a ring for this year in the front office, it should be Danny Ainge. He basically took on a contract, in order to help you guys out with the Rasheed deal. That seems odd, no matter how you look at it. What would have been his incentive to do that with a team in the same conference? Also, Dumars lucked out by having the 2nd pick in the draft this past year fall in his lap. Did he do anything to get the pick such as trading for it? No, the previous GM did. Basically everyone knew that Grant had decided to leave, and both he and Dumars agreed to the sign and trade because it had been speculated that Wallace was coming to Detroit anyway, and Dumars wanted to help Hill get his money. To me, all of the deals seem to be more of a lucky streak than Joe Dumars doing a wonderful job. I understand there are several pistons fans here, but it's time to jump off his sack and remember that he did not make most of those deals happen alone.

So, in short, the obvious choice is hiring Larry Brown, for the quick fix. Lord knows, he won't be there for more than 6 years. The true test for Dumars will be in the next couple of years. Will he be able to keep Rasheed and Mehmet Okur? Will he be able to keep Larry Brown interested after they win the championship; assuming they do win it. What kind of depth will the team have next season? All of these questions are still up in the air.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Wow. Are you one of those guys still bitter about Melo? Luck? How do you figure. The only real strokes of luck that Dumars didn't create was the fact that G Hill didn't want to stay here and he got the #2 pick which he used for the next generation of the Pistons and didn't even need it for this year's Championship run.

While it wasn't Dumars decision for G Hill to go, it's likely that he would've pursued Ben Wallace regardless. He admitted to having an eye on Wallace even when Hill was still in the fold. A lot of people thought that it was stupid for Detroit to pay so much money for Wallace instead of save the cap space for another superstar available down the road.

Trading Stack for Hamilton was a brilliant move. Stack was considered Detroit's only real star and was the only guy who could draw fans at the time. Hamilton wasn't well known and this was another deal smashed by the media. Joe did this for chemistry reasons because he didn't think that Stack was good enough to be this guy who took 25 shots even though Stack felt he deserved those shots. Now he's a cancer in Washington who they want to get rid of.

Chauncy was another great move by Dumars. Nobody in the media made it out to be a big story when Detroit aquired Chauncy for the full MLE. Not only was it smart for Joe to make Chauncy his #1 priority that off-season but he also had to sell Detroit to Chauncy and did a good job of that obviously.

Tayshaun was a great draft pick by Dumars. At the time, Joe owed a pick from a deal the Pistons previously made from the Doug Collins era and Joe said that if Tay wasn't availalbe, he would've fullfilled that deal and gave that pick away. On some mock draft boards, Tay was a 2nd round pick. It's not like it was some guy who luckily dropped to Joe. He was one of the few that believed this guy was the real deal. Chuck Daly said on the radio that when he was doing scouting for Phoenix, they didn't think he was good enough to be a first rounder or play in the league because he was too frail.

While Atlanta and Boston have some bad GMs, give Joe the credit for being the guy to take advantage of the situation. Also let's not forget that in order for Joe to make that deal, he needed 2 first round picks. How did he have those 2 picks? Both were obtained by cutting his loses on his previous bad decisions. He traded Rodney White for the Milwakee pick and he traded Cleaves for Barry and a future first round pick which he then used to cut a deal with Sacramento to call it even so that Detroit no longer owed that pick from the Doug Collins era. In essence, Detroit traded Rodney White, Cleaves, and some expiring contracts for Sheed.

Don't forget about getting Barry and Robinson for nothing. While they aren't here now, both were important in Detroit's resurgence and who knows how attractive Detroit would've been to Chauncy without the wins that those guys helped bring. Also Robinson was traded for the expiring contract of Sura who was necessary in the Sheed deal.

While Memo is likely gone after this year, give credit for Joe to spot him in the 2nd round when everyone thought he was stupid for passing up on Loren Woods with the same pick.

Then there was the drafting of Delfino with the 25th pick. Again there was better known names at the time but if Delfino wasn't drafted last year, he would be coming into this year's draft as a pretty polished top 10 pick.

For all the crap Joe gets about passing on Melo, I'll contend that he was correct in passing on him regardless as to how long Darko develops. I think Melo would've brought over the Stackhouse syndrome to a team that relies on chemistry. I also doubt that Prince would've developed as fast if there was the Melo controversy behind him. Unlike some people, I also believe that Darko will be the real deal and he will likely be coming into his own just in time as the Wallace's start to get older and slower.

Then there's the final cherry on top with Larry Brown. Who in the media thought this was a good move? Again Joe went against the grain and made the right decision. The players are much happier playing for LB than they were for Carlisle and I don't think that the Pistons would've been as good against New Jersey, Indiana, and L.A. with their old system. LB has made the players better and more well rounded which allows him to make more adjustments. If Joe would've done the safe PR thing and kept Carlisle, the Pistons might've had a mutiny much like New Jersey had with Scott. Once Carlisle was gone, the players didn't have a problem admitting their dislike for him.

So the bottom line is which GMs in the NBA would've made all those moves? Most were controversial or weren't considered great moves at the time and they've all turned out to be the right moves. In terms of Detroit's future, even if they lose Okur while keeping Sheed, Detroit will return their entire starting lineup and will likely be better off the bench next year. The bench hasn't really saved Detroit's [censored] much in the last 2 rounds and another year for Darko and the addition of Delfino should automatically give them more skill off the bench. As long as Detroit keeps some veteran leaders off the bench, they should be better next year. The truth of the matter is Detroit's window of opportunity is just starting to open.

[OneBadMutha]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
jacobaaron said:
I have been a fan of the Pistons for as long as I've been a fan of the game, 19 years. But to be honest, I think people give Dumars way too much credit for this team's success. I mean, if anyone should get a ring for this year in the front office, it should be Danny Ainge. He basically took on a contract, in order to help you guys out with the Rasheed deal. That seems odd, no matter how you look at it. What would have been his incentive to do that with a team in the same conference? Also, Dumars lucked out by having the 2nd pick in the draft this past year fall in his lap. Did he do anything to get the pick such as trading for it? No, the previous GM did. Basically everyone knew that Grant had decided to leave, and both he and Dumars agreed to the sign and trade because it had been speculated that Wallace was coming to Detroit anyway, and Dumars wanted to help Hill get his money. To me, all of the deals seem to be more of a lucky streak than Joe Dumars doing a wonderful job. I understand there are several pistons fans here, but it's time to jump off his sack and remember that he did not make most of those deals happen alone.

So, in short, the obvious choice is hiring Larry Brown, for the quick fix. Lord knows, he won't be there for more than 6 years. The true test for Dumars will be in the next couple of years. Will he be able to keep Rasheed and Mehmet Okur? Will he be able to keep Larry Brown interested after they win the championship; assuming they do win it. What kind of depth will the team have next season? All of these questions are still up in the air.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Wow. Are you one of those guys still bitter about Melo? Luck? How do you figure. The only real strokes of luck that Dumars didn't create was the fact that G Hill didn't want to stay here and he got the #2 pick which he used for the next generation of the Pistons and didn't even need it for this year's Championship run.

While it wasn't Dumars decision for G Hill to go, it's likely that he would've pursued Ben Wallace regardless. He admitted to having an eye on Wallace even when Hill was still in the fold. A lot of people thought that it was stupid for Detroit to pay so much money for Wallace instead of save the cap space for another superstar available down the road.

Trading Stack for Hamilton was a brilliant move. Stack was considered Detroit's only real star and was the only guy who could draw fans at the time. Hamilton wasn't well known and this was another deal smashed by the media. Joe did this for chemistry reasons because he didn't think that Stack was good enough to be this guy who took 25 shots even though Stack felt he deserved those shots. Now he's a cancer in Washington who they want to get rid of.

Chauncy was another great move by Dumars. Nobody in the media made it out to be a big story when Detroit aquired Chauncy for the full MLE. Not only was it smart for Joe to make Chauncy his #1 priority that off-season but he also had to sell Detroit to Chauncy and did a good job of that obviously.

Tayshaun was a great draft pick by Dumars. At the time, Joe owed a pick from a deal the Pistons previously made from the Doug Collins era and Joe said that if Tay wasn't availalbe, he would've fullfilled that deal and gave that pick away. On some mock draft boards, Tay was a 2nd round pick. It's not like it was some guy who luckily dropped to Joe. He was one of the few that believed this guy was the real deal. Chuck Daly said on the radio that when he was doing scouting for Phoenix, they didn't think he was good enough to be a first rounder or play in the league because he was too frail.

While Atlanta and Boston have some bad GMs, give Joe the credit for being the guy to take advantage of the situation. Also let's not forget that in order for Joe to make that deal, he needed 2 first round picks. How did he have those 2 picks? Both were obtained by cutting his loses on his previous bad decisions. He traded Rodney White for the Milwakee pick and he traded Cleaves for Barry and a future first round pick which he then used to cut a deal with Sacramento to call it even so that Detroit no longer owed that pick from the Doug Collins era. In essence, Detroit traded Rodney White, Cleaves, and some expiring contracts for Sheed.

Don't forget about getting Barry and Robinson for nothing. While they aren't here now, both were important in Detroit's resurgence and who knows how attractive Detroit would've been to Chauncy without the wins that those guys helped bring. Also Robinson was traded for the expiring contract of Sura who was necessary in the Sheed deal.

While Memo is likely gone after this year, give credit for Joe to spot him in the 2nd round when everyone thought he was stupid for passing up on Loren Woods with the same pick.

Then there was the drafting of Delfino with the 25th pick. Again there was better known names at the time but if Delfino wasn't drafted last year, he would be coming into this year's draft as a pretty polished top 10 pick.

For all the crap Joe gets about passing on Melo, I'll contend that he was correct in passing on him regardless as to how long Darko develops. I think Melo would've brought over the Stackhouse syndrome to a team that relies on chemistry. I also doubt that Prince would've developed as fast if there was the Melo controversy behind him. Unlike some people, I also believe that Darko will be the real deal and he will likely be coming into his own just in time as the Wallace's start to get older and slower.

Then there's the final cherry on top with Larry Brown. Who in the media thought this was a good move? Again Joe went against the grain and made the right decision. The players are much happier playing for LB than they were for Carlisle and I don't think that the Pistons would've been as good against New Jersey, Indiana, and L.A. with their old system. LB has made the players better and more well rounded which allows him to make more adjustments. If Joe would've done the safe PR thing and kept Carlisle, the Pistons might've had a mutiny much like New Jersey had with Scott. Once Carlisle was gone, the players didn't have a problem admitting their dislike for him.

So the bottom line is which GMs in the NBA would've made all those moves? Most were controversial or weren't considered great moves at the time and they've all turned out to be the right moves. In terms of Detroit's future, even if they lose Okur while keeping Sheed, Detroit will return their entire starting lineup and will likely be better off the bench next year. The bench hasn't really saved Detroit's [censored] much in the last 2 rounds and another year for Darko and the addition of Delfino should automatically give them more skill off the bench. As long as Detroit keeps some veteran leaders off the bench, they should be better next year. The truth of the matter is Detroit's window of opportunity is just starting to open.

[jordan0386]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

[jordan0386]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

[jordan0386]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

[mgoblue]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
jordan0386 said:


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

yeah, what he said!

OneBadMutha really knows his Pistons, I really enjoyed reading that, great analysis, IMO

[mgoblue]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
jordan0386 said:


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

yeah, what he said!

OneBadMutha really knows his Pistons, I really enjoyed reading that, great analysis, IMO

[mgoblue]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
jordan0386 said:


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

yeah, what he said!

OneBadMutha really knows his Pistons, I really enjoyed reading that, great analysis, IMO

[23]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
EWRMETS said:
You're telling me Hill had the same foot problem he has now when he was traded to Orlando?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


Only John Gabriel would trade Big Ben for a hurt player.

[23]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
EWRMETS said:
You're telling me Hill had the same foot problem he has now when he was traded to Orlando?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


Only John Gabriel would trade Big Ben for a hurt player.

[23]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
EWRMETS said:
You're telling me Hill had the same foot problem he has now when he was traded to Orlando?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


Only John Gabriel would trade Big Ben for a hurt player.

[MartinDihigo]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

i voted for Dumars mamma , because if she didnt feed him some cambells chunky soup that filled him up right , the Pistons wouldn't be about to win the NBA CHAMPIONSHIP BABY!!!

GO PISTON!!!

[MartinDihigo]

Re: Joe Dumars: Basketball Mind

i voted for Dumars mamma , because if she didnt feed him some cambells chunky soup that filled him up right , the Pistons wouldn't be about to win the NBA CHAMPIONSHIP BABY!!!

GO PISTON!!!