Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

**nkhera1** · 07-13-2004, 08:01 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

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KDRE said:
Noone knows the basics because they criticize Kobe? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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Having said that, let's throw all the BS out the window and be realistic here. The kid can play. He's not Michael Jordan, but he is the best since.

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Let's see, TD, KG... okay. No MVP's, no Finals MVP's, no scoring titles, no DPOY awards. okay.. I feel you

No question he can ball with the best of em. He can hit clutch shots. He can be unstoppable when he's hot.

But he's not the only one who is unstoppable when they are hot or those other things either. In other words he's not notches above guys like the couple I just named.

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I think he was talking about best guard, and besides not winning those awards doesn't mean he is a great player. He has all-nba first team and all-nba defensive team awards which is pretty good.

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Honestly fella's, you have to wonder if you know much about the game. Simple fact : That Lakers team was built around a center.

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So just break the plays, curse out the coach, dont listen to him, get him fired, and everything is oooooooooooootttayyy!!!!

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jordan did that as well to some degree, and i know jordan is the g.o.a.t and that kobe still has to catch up in skill level.

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That team had a C taking up a toone of cap room and had complimentary players built to fit. Of course the team would struggle when that C is out.

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Well, noone complained when he won them 3 rings with 3 finals MVP's and why complain when they gave him the money in the 1st place? Now that he's gone, we'll see how 3 slashers do without him in a new system.

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So who cares that noone complained then. Now they are complaining, and its not like shaq couldn't have done it without bryant. I mean you take away shaq and kobe and this team won't even be able to win 5 games, thats how bad the rest of the team is.

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Jordan always had a rebounder (Grant through to Rodman) and he always had a defensive guru (Pip) and he always had other guys who could bring the ball up (Pip, Kukoc) and he always had shooters (Paxson through to Kerr).

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If I'm not mistaken, some of MJ's teammates and the same coaching staff came to LA right?

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you are mistaken. unless you count a washed up horace grant or ron harper (for one year) as mj's teammates. so that is a pretty useless post there.

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Looking at Kobes record without Shaq is insanely naive. Kobe can't be judged until he's had a team built around him. It's that simple.

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That's the problem, Kobe doesn't care about the team, but himself. MJ wish he would have had a player like Shaq on his squad. He'd have murdered the L even much more. Kobe is too selfish to appreciate having that luxury. He could have easily averaged 4 or 5 more assist along with what he was playing with, but decided too many times to dominate the ball himself.

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yeah your definetely right here. He is selfish, but i do think he cares about winning. Besides he has made the game a lot easier for shaq as well by driving and drawing the defense so that he can feed the rock to shaq.

<hr /></blockquote>

And there you have it, you made some valid points but i countered with what i thought was valid.

**SportsTop** · 07-13-2004, 08:05 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
SportsmanTO said:
Just want to pick up on the "team was built around a center." You do realize that the triangle was used in Chicago and they never had a center that was more than above average.

<hr /></blockquote>

You do know that the Triangle Offense was originally created around the center, right? The triple post offense.

**SportsTop** · 07-13-2004, 08:05 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
SportsmanTO said:
Just want to pick up on the "team was built around a center." You do realize that the triangle was used in Chicago and they never had a center that was more than above average.

<hr /></blockquote>

You do know that the Triangle Offense was originally created around the center, right? The triple post offense.

**SportsTop** · 07-13-2004, 08:05 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
SportsmanTO said:
Just want to pick up on the "team was built around a center." You do realize that the triangle was used in Chicago and they never had a center that was more than above average.

<hr /></blockquote>

You do know that the Triangle Offense was originally created around the center, right? The triple post offense.

**SPTO** · 07-13-2004, 08:07 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Squint said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
SportsmanTO said:
Just want to pick up on the "team was built around a center." You do realize that the triangle was used in Chicago and they never had a center that was more than above average.

<hr /></blockquote>

You do know that the Triangle Offense was originally created around the center, right? The triple post offense.

<hr /></blockquote>

Hmm that may be true but i'm talking about the way Phil Jackson coached it especially in Chicago. I mean a team that can win with Bill Cartwright at center has to have production elsewhere.

But this is verging off the subject but if i'm wrong then sorry

**SPTO** · 07-13-2004, 08:07 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Squint said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
SportsmanTO said:
Just want to pick up on the "team was built around a center." You do realize that the triangle was used in Chicago and they never had a center that was more than above average.

<hr /></blockquote>

You do know that the Triangle Offense was originally created around the center, right? The triple post offense.

<hr /></blockquote>

Hmm that may be true but i'm talking about the way Phil Jackson coached it especially in Chicago. I mean a team that can win with Bill Cartwright at center has to have production elsewhere.

But this is verging off the subject but if i'm wrong then sorry

**SPTO** · 07-13-2004, 08:07 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Squint said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
SportsmanTO said:
Just want to pick up on the "team was built around a center." You do realize that the triangle was used in Chicago and they never had a center that was more than above average.

<hr /></blockquote>

You do know that the Triangle Offense was originally created around the center, right? The triple post offense.

<hr /></blockquote>

Hmm that may be true but i'm talking about the way Phil Jackson coached it especially in Chicago. I mean a team that can win with Bill Cartwright at center has to have production elsewhere.

But this is verging off the subject but if i'm wrong then sorry

23 · 07-13-2004, 08:37 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I think he was talking about best guard, and besides not winning those awards doesn't mean he is a great player. He has all-nba first team and all-nba defensive team awards which is pretty good

<hr /></blockquote>

If he was talking about guards then he should and would have said that wouldn't he, but he didn't which means you are assuming and going off of something that was never said. I also never said he wasn't a great player, but as he said, he also isn't the greatest since MJ either

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
ordan did that as well to some degree, and i know jordan is the g.o.a.t and that kobe still has to catch up in skill level.

<hr /></blockquote>

MJ didn't curse Phil out. He knew Phil was important to winning. Kobe just didn't care. MJ never got Phil fired, or Pip traded or any of this madness Kobe is in the middle of.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
So who cares that noone complained then. Now they are complaining, and its not like shaq couldn't have done it without bryant. I mean you take away shaq and kobe and this team won't even be able to win 5 games, thats how bad the rest of the team is.

<hr /></blockquote>

If they gave it to him, then they shouldn't complain now because it was their fault in the first place. I see that there are so many what have you done for me lately fans on the Lakers wagon. Those aren't loyal fans, those are stick with you if you win fans, and if not then oh well hollywood type fans. With just Shaq, they couls win more games than they would with just Kobe and we all know it. Dont know the teammates now because if I'm not mistaken, it was guys like Bob H orry and Fisher who saved the Lakers in PLAYOFF games and contributed to those wins. You seem so unappreciative

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
you are mistaken. unless you count a washed up horace grant or ron harper (for one year) as mj's teammates. so that is a pretty useless post there.

<hr /></blockquote>

you are sad that you mis understand the value of the experience and what guys like Ho Grant Harper, and Phil and his team brought to the Lakers. Again, unappreciative. Fans like this dont deserve a winning team

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
yeah your definetely right here. He is selfish, but i do think he cares about winning. Besides he has made the game a lot easier for shaq as well by driving and drawing the defense so that he can feed the rock to shaq.

<hr /></blockquote>

Actually, Shaq is the one who made it easier for Kobe. Did you watch the games? Are you okay? Shaq demanded the doubles and triples not Kobe. Your blinders are on full blast because you missed what the rest of the world saw. There is a reason Shaq was referred to as the most dominant and not Kobe

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And there you have it, you made some valid points but i countered with what i thought was valid.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, you tried, and I appreciate that, but look at what you've said and honestly think "do I really believe this myself

23 · 07-13-2004, 08:37 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I think he was talking about best guard, and besides not winning those awards doesn't mean he is a great player. He has all-nba first team and all-nba defensive team awards which is pretty good

<hr /></blockquote>

If he was talking about guards then he should and would have said that wouldn't he, but he didn't which means you are assuming and going off of something that was never said. I also never said he wasn't a great player, but as he said, he also isn't the greatest since MJ either

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
ordan did that as well to some degree, and i know jordan is the g.o.a.t and that kobe still has to catch up in skill level.

<hr /></blockquote>

MJ didn't curse Phil out. He knew Phil was important to winning. Kobe just didn't care. MJ never got Phil fired, or Pip traded or any of this madness Kobe is in the middle of.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
So who cares that noone complained then. Now they are complaining, and its not like shaq couldn't have done it without bryant. I mean you take away shaq and kobe and this team won't even be able to win 5 games, thats how bad the rest of the team is.

<hr /></blockquote>

If they gave it to him, then they shouldn't complain now because it was their fault in the first place. I see that there are so many what have you done for me lately fans on the Lakers wagon. Those aren't loyal fans, those are stick with you if you win fans, and if not then oh well hollywood type fans. With just Shaq, they couls win more games than they would with just Kobe and we all know it. Dont know the teammates now because if I'm not mistaken, it was guys like Bob H orry and Fisher who saved the Lakers in PLAYOFF games and contributed to those wins. You seem so unappreciative

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
you are mistaken. unless you count a washed up horace grant or ron harper (for one year) as mj's teammates. so that is a pretty useless post there.

<hr /></blockquote>

you are sad that you mis understand the value of the experience and what guys like Ho Grant Harper, and Phil and his team brought to the Lakers. Again, unappreciative. Fans like this dont deserve a winning team

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
yeah your definetely right here. He is selfish, but i do think he cares about winning. Besides he has made the game a lot easier for shaq as well by driving and drawing the defense so that he can feed the rock to shaq.

<hr /></blockquote>

Actually, Shaq is the one who made it easier for Kobe. Did you watch the games? Are you okay? Shaq demanded the doubles and triples not Kobe. Your blinders are on full blast because you missed what the rest of the world saw. There is a reason Shaq was referred to as the most dominant and not Kobe

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And there you have it, you made some valid points but i countered with what i thought was valid.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, you tried, and I appreciate that, but look at what you've said and honestly think "do I really believe this myself

23 · 07-13-2004, 08:37 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I think he was talking about best guard, and besides not winning those awards doesn't mean he is a great player. He has all-nba first team and all-nba defensive team awards which is pretty good

<hr /></blockquote>

If he was talking about guards then he should and would have said that wouldn't he, but he didn't which means you are assuming and going off of something that was never said. I also never said he wasn't a great player, but as he said, he also isn't the greatest since MJ either

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
ordan did that as well to some degree, and i know jordan is the g.o.a.t and that kobe still has to catch up in skill level.

<hr /></blockquote>

MJ didn't curse Phil out. He knew Phil was important to winning. Kobe just didn't care. MJ never got Phil fired, or Pip traded or any of this madness Kobe is in the middle of.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
So who cares that noone complained then. Now they are complaining, and its not like shaq couldn't have done it without bryant. I mean you take away shaq and kobe and this team won't even be able to win 5 games, thats how bad the rest of the team is.

<hr /></blockquote>

If they gave it to him, then they shouldn't complain now because it was their fault in the first place. I see that there are so many what have you done for me lately fans on the Lakers wagon. Those aren't loyal fans, those are stick with you if you win fans, and if not then oh well hollywood type fans. With just Shaq, they couls win more games than they would with just Kobe and we all know it. Dont know the teammates now because if I'm not mistaken, it was guys like Bob H orry and Fisher who saved the Lakers in PLAYOFF games and contributed to those wins. You seem so unappreciative

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
you are mistaken. unless you count a washed up horace grant or ron harper (for one year) as mj's teammates. so that is a pretty useless post there.

<hr /></blockquote>

you are sad that you mis understand the value of the experience and what guys like Ho Grant Harper, and Phil and his team brought to the Lakers. Again, unappreciative. Fans like this dont deserve a winning team

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
yeah your definetely right here. He is selfish, but i do think he cares about winning. Besides he has made the game a lot easier for shaq as well by driving and drawing the defense so that he can feed the rock to shaq.

<hr /></blockquote>

Actually, Shaq is the one who made it easier for Kobe. Did you watch the games? Are you okay? Shaq demanded the doubles and triples not Kobe. Your blinders are on full blast because you missed what the rest of the world saw. There is a reason Shaq was referred to as the most dominant and not Kobe

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And there you have it, you made some valid points but i countered with what i thought was valid.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, you tried, and I appreciate that, but look at what you've said and honestly think "do I really believe this myself

**mike586corleone** · 07-13-2004, 08:42 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

From what i have seen of kobe when shaq was out was that he never made his teammates better. now that the team is going to be built around him i'll be curious to see which way he goes. he could become an mj or duncan, shaq and prove that he has that rare ability, or a tmac one who doesn't.

**mike586corleone** · 07-13-2004, 08:42 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

From what i have seen of kobe when shaq was out was that he never made his teammates better. now that the team is going to be built around him i'll be curious to see which way he goes. he could become an mj or duncan, shaq and prove that he has that rare ability, or a tmac one who doesn't.

**mike586corleone** · 07-13-2004, 08:42 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

From what i have seen of kobe when shaq was out was that he never made his teammates better. now that the team is going to be built around him i'll be curious to see which way he goes. he could become an mj or duncan, shaq and prove that he has that rare ability, or a tmac one who doesn't.

**nkhera1** · 07-13-2004, 09:01 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
KDRE said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I think he was talking about best guard, and besides not winning those awards doesn't mean he is a great player. He has all-nba first team and all-nba defensive team awards which is pretty good

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If he was talking about guards then he should and would have said that wouldn't he, but he didn't which means you are assuming and going off of something that was never said. I also never said he wasn't a great player, but as he said, he also isn't the greatest since MJ either

<hr /></blockquote>

i agree with you there as of right now. We'll see what happens once kobe gets his own team

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
jordan did that as well to some degree, and i know jordan is the g.o.a.t and that kobe still has to catch up in skill level.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
MJ didn't curse Phil out. He knew Phil was important to winning. Kobe just didn't care. MJ never got Phil fired, or Pip traded or any of this madness Kobe is in the middle of.

<hr /></blockquote>
yeah its not the same circumstances but he helped get doug collins fired, i heard he punched a player in practice once (read it in some stupid book at borders)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
So who cares that noone complained then. Now they are complaining, and its not like shaq couldn't have done it without bryant. I mean you take away shaq and kobe and this team won't even be able to win 5 games, thats how bad the rest of the team is.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If they gave it to him, then they shouldn't complain now because it was their fault in the first place. I see that there are so many what have you done for me lately fans on the Lakers wagon. Those aren't loyal fans, those are stick with you if you win fans, and if not then oh well hollywood type fans. With just Shaq, they couls win more games than they would with just Kobe and we all know it. Dont know the teammates now because if I'm not mistaken, it was guys like Bob H orry and Fisher who saved the Lakers in PLAYOFF games and contributed to those wins. You seem so unappreciative

<hr /></blockquote>

yeah they saved them, but every team gets lucky. Like tim duncan's shot. also those players are important but like i said thake kobe or shaq off and that team can't win 5 games. And i'm not a lakers fan i am a suns fan and i'm not a kobe fan i am actually a jordan fan and i do beleive he was the greatest ever and that kobe won't be as good, but i do believe kobe is the best 2 right now

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
you are mistaken. unless you count a washed up horace grant or ron harper (for one year) as mj's teammates. so that is a pretty useless post there.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
you are sad that you mis understand the value of the experience and what guys like Ho Grant Harper, and Phil and his team brought to the Lakers. Again, unappreciative. Fans like this dont deserve a winning team

<hr /></blockquote>

again i hate the lakers, but i no playoff experience is valuable but i would rather have someone who can play a little here and there.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
yeah your definetely right here. He is selfish, but i do think he cares about winning. Besides he has made the game a lot easier for shaq as well by driving and drawing the defense so that he can feed the rock to shaq.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Actually, Shaq is the one who made it easier for Kobe. Did you watch the games? Are you okay? Shaq demanded the doubles and triples not Kobe. Your blinders are on full blast because you missed what the rest of the world saw. There is a reason Shaq was referred to as the most dominant and not Kobe

<hr /></blockquote>

i know shaq made the game a hell of a lot easier for bryant but kobe also made it easier for shaq. and my blinders are on full blast when i say amare stoudamire is going to be the best player next year (though i believe it will happen in about 2 or 3 years). and before this year i would have totally agreed with you but i saw some games and shaq got some help from kobe

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And there you have it, you made some valid points but i countered with what i thought was valid.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Well, you tried, and I appreciate that, but look at what you've said and honestly think "do I really believe this myself

<hr /></blockquote>

i believe myself more than i believe you. I can't see how you can convince me that a horace grant sitting on the bench injured is a valuable asset to a team

**nkhera1** · 07-13-2004, 09:01 PM

Re: Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
KDRE said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I think he was talking about best guard, and besides not winning those awards doesn't mean he is a great player. He has all-nba first team and all-nba defensive team awards which is pretty good

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If he was talking about guards then he should and would have said that wouldn't he, but he didn't which means you are assuming and going off of something that was never said. I also never said he wasn't a great player, but as he said, he also isn't the greatest since MJ either

<hr /></blockquote>

i agree with you there as of right now. We'll see what happens once kobe gets his own team

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
jordan did that as well to some degree, and i know jordan is the g.o.a.t and that kobe still has to catch up in skill level.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
MJ didn't curse Phil out. He knew Phil was important to winning. Kobe just didn't care. MJ never got Phil fired, or Pip traded or any of this madness Kobe is in the middle of.

<hr /></blockquote>
yeah its not the same circumstances but he helped get doug collins fired, i heard he punched a player in practice once (read it in some stupid book at borders)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
So who cares that noone complained then. Now they are complaining, and its not like shaq couldn't have done it without bryant. I mean you take away shaq and kobe and this team won't even be able to win 5 games, thats how bad the rest of the team is.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If they gave it to him, then they shouldn't complain now because it was their fault in the first place. I see that there are so many what have you done for me lately fans on the Lakers wagon. Those aren't loyal fans, those are stick with you if you win fans, and if not then oh well hollywood type fans. With just Shaq, they couls win more games than they would with just Kobe and we all know it. Dont know the teammates now because if I'm not mistaken, it was guys like Bob H orry and Fisher who saved the Lakers in PLAYOFF games and contributed to those wins. You seem so unappreciative

<hr /></blockquote>

yeah they saved them, but every team gets lucky. Like tim duncan's shot. also those players are important but like i said thake kobe or shaq off and that team can't win 5 games. And i'm not a lakers fan i am a suns fan and i'm not a kobe fan i am actually a jordan fan and i do beleive he was the greatest ever and that kobe won't be as good, but i do believe kobe is the best 2 right now

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
you are mistaken. unless you count a washed up horace grant or ron harper (for one year) as mj's teammates. so that is a pretty useless post there.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
you are sad that you mis understand the value of the experience and what guys like Ho Grant Harper, and Phil and his team brought to the Lakers. Again, unappreciative. Fans like this dont deserve a winning team

<hr /></blockquote>

again i hate the lakers, but i no playoff experience is valuable but i would rather have someone who can play a little here and there.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
yeah your definetely right here. He is selfish, but i do think he cares about winning. Besides he has made the game a lot easier for shaq as well by driving and drawing the defense so that he can feed the rock to shaq.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Actually, Shaq is the one who made it easier for Kobe. Did you watch the games? Are you okay? Shaq demanded the doubles and triples not Kobe. Your blinders are on full blast because you missed what the rest of the world saw. There is a reason Shaq was referred to as the most dominant and not Kobe

<hr /></blockquote>

i know shaq made the game a hell of a lot easier for bryant but kobe also made it easier for shaq. and my blinders are on full blast when i say amare stoudamire is going to be the best player next year (though i believe it will happen in about 2 or 3 years). and before this year i would have totally agreed with you but i saw some games and shaq got some help from kobe

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And there you have it, you made some valid points but i countered with what i thought was valid.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Well, you tried, and I appreciate that, but look at what you've said and honestly think "do I really believe this myself

<hr /></blockquote>

i believe myself more than i believe you. I can't see how you can convince me that a horace grant sitting on the bench injured is a valuable asset to a team

Do the Kobe critics even know the basics?

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