MVP of the season so far?

[ojandpizza]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

My thoughts/rant on this year’s MVP discussion, not that it matters or anything but that’s what we are all here for. I do not believe Anthony Davis, regardless of record, should be this year’s MVP, and I’ll explain.

I keep seeing the “he does everything for them” and/or similar comments, and he does to an extent but I believe that it’s more so that he records a bulk of the stats. Obviously those can mean one in the same, but in Davis’s case the context is a little different. Watching the Pelican’s play, Davis is not the life of their offense, it doesn’t run through him, it’s not built on him… I realize that can be difficult to do at times as a big man, but it’s hard to argue that he provides more for his team if that’s the case.. We’ve seen guys like KG, Dirk, TD, etc have that role, the role of not just being a leading scorer but the guy who everything rises and falls with.. Davis doesn’t have that responsibility yet.

He doesn’t have to create for others, or really even for himself. Statistically 72% of his points are assisted.. You watch him play and you can see lots open looks, and among the leaders in dunks.. Props to him for being able to convert them at an efficient rate, but at the same time his role in those opportunities isn’t a Curry, Harden, James, Durant level role. Doesn’t have the burden of having to get his own shot when defenses are keyed on him…. On the opposite side of that, Davis averages less than 2 assists per game. Not saying it’s a big man’s job to rack up assists, but he has a somewhat limited overall output on his team’s offensive production. As of right now he generates 4 points per game from assists.. Also his assisting opportunity is very low (3.1), most of his passes are simply swinging the ball back to a guard… Just for comparison Blake Griffin (who isn’t even in the MVP discussion, but a PF) creates 12 points a night off of assists. Not only that, but his passing sets him up for 9 assist opportunity a night. Davis’s total offensive output 28.6 points, Blake’s is 34.8.. and that’s not adjusted for equal minutes.. Per 48 (nba.com doesn’t have 36) Davis is 38.2, Blake is 46.9…

For the most part that comparison is pointless.. But what I’m getting at is, it’s hard for me to back the idea that “he does everything for them” when we have guys that literally mean everything to their teams production. Harden for example scores 34% of his team’s points and dishes out 43% of his teams assists, Davis 32% and 10%. Harden is responsible for 44 points a night, his per 48 would be 58 a night.. Which would be over half of his teams output every single game. That’s a very, very large difference, and very massive chunk of responsibly. Same goes for someone like Curry, or LeBron. They generate so much more than looking at a stat-line will show, and you can see it show in every game.

But putting all of that aside, and forget the W/L record. Just looking a numbers alone, when has 24 and 10 ever been so mind blowing? Lol….. Blake did it last year, as well as 23 & 12 as a rookie, Bosh did it in Toronto, Love in Minny, Aldridge is doing it, Cousins at nearly 24 and 13… I realize he plays well at both ends, I realize he gives an extra block more per game than the average big man, I realize he’s been efficient, but we have posts around here that make it sound like this dude is averaging 30 and 14 and throwing in 5 blocks a night for good measure. He’s giving you run of the mill solid big man numbers, he’s not shooting through the roof with astronomical numbers that we’ve yet to see before. And even if we tossed out team record and compared him to Harden statically, Harden leads the league in scoring, 2nd in assists from non-point guards (LeBron), rebounds just as well as Davis per his position.

Also, defensively I do think he is very good (verge of great even, or too soon?). But he’s not that team’s back-bone as a defender. Their defense, at this point, doesn’t rely on his strengths like a Noah, or Marc Gasol, or arguably even a LeBron/Bosh in Miami. He makes lots of great individual plays, lots of plays with his length. Great at reaching perimeter shots quickly for blocks, passing lanes and deflecting skip passes, he’s very good in all those areas. But he’s not a great rim protector, he still needs to work on guarding strong guys inside too. I know “he averages over two blocks a night”, so does Pau Gasol…. Obviously Davis is a much better defender than Gasol, that’s not my point. My point is staring across a stat-line without context shouldn’t be the biggest factor in MVP votes.

Also as far as the PER thing goes.. I do believe it can be a useful stat, but I don’t think it should be strongly relied upon for MVP, also hate that “efficiency” is often used when discussing PER. Remember before Durant came back Russ’s PER was like 33.something (Mr. Efficient lol)…. Anyways, PER only rises and falls with your plusses and your minuses. Up with positive stats like made shot, steal, block, etc. and down with negatives like fouls, misses, turnovers. Davis, as mentioned with the passing, assisting, limited offensive responsibly, earlier in my post isn’t in a lot of positions to turn the ball over. Can you guess what the strongest weight for the negative part of PER is? Turnovers by far. Davis makes the most of his shots, but his FG% isn’t so mind-blowing that I would assume he would have the best PER ever. (why I looked up the formula). Right now what Davis is doing to maintain his super PER is avoid fouls, and make free throws.. Obviously the points, rebounds, etc. help but as mentioned before those numbers aren’t anything we haven’t saw before. I don’t think Davis having the best PER ever is really “something we’ve never seen before” but more so that usually marquee, superstar level guys are put in positions where they can’t average virtually zero turnovers. Probably why someone like Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Duncan/KG, or LeBron James doesn’t already have an unbreakable PER record anyways.

Anyway I’m not trying to nitpick or undervalue Davis in any way with this post. All of you who think he’s the future star of the league I am in complete agreement with you, 100%. In fact, in the redraft thread I think I was the only person who said I would pick him over Durant. So I obviously think very highly of his game, and he has multiple MVP awards coming his way. But I do not believe he deserves it this year, from watching him play or statically stacking him against others, even if we didn’t put as much weight on team record. There are 3-4 guys that I would for sure put ahead of him right now.

[ojandpizza]

MVP of the season so far?

To add to what I just said. I think Davis's MVP campaign is very Kevin Love - ish. I'm not comparing him to Love, I'm not saying good stats bad team, none of that before it starts a completely new and unintended side argument lol..

I'm just saying it's similar in terms of they both carry a large burden of their teams statically output, without having the team necessarily structured around them.

To keep it simple and not drag other positions into the conversation.. I think watching them their is a large difference in how Love or Davis led a team compared to Duncan or KG. Everyone was an extension of those two, where with Love and Davis I feel like they more so just carry the statical load. If that makes any sense.


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[DKTF]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

My thoughts/rant on this year’s MVP discussion, not that it matters or anything but that’s what we are all here for. I do not believe Anthony Davis, regardless of record, should be this year’s MVP, and I’ll explain.

I keep seeing the “he does everything for them” and/or similar comments, and he does to an extent but I believe that it’s more so that he records a bulk of the stats. Obviously those can mean one in the same, but in Davis’s case the context is a little different. Watching the Pelican’s play, Davis is not the life of their offense, it doesn’t run through him, it’s not built on him… I realize that can be difficult to do at times as a big man, but it’s hard to argue that he provides more for his team if that’s the case.. We’ve seen guys like KG, Dirk, TD, etc have that role, the role of not just being a leading scorer but the guy who everything rises and falls with.. Davis doesn’t have that responsibility yet.

He doesn’t have to create for others, or really even for himself. Statistically 72% of his points are assisted.. You watch him play and you can see lots open looks, and among the leaders in dunks.. Props to him for being able to convert them at an efficient rate, but at the same time his role in those opportunities isn’t a Curry, Harden, James, Durant level role. Doesn’t have the burden of having to get his own shot when defenses are keyed on him…. On the opposite side of that, Davis averages less than 2 assists per game. Not saying it’s a big man’s job to rack up assists, but he has a somewhat limited overall output on his team’s offensive production. As of right now he generates 4 points per game from assists.. Also his assisting opportunity is very low (3.1), most of his passes are simply swinging the ball back to a guard… Just for comparison Blake Griffin (who isn’t even in the MVP discussion, but a PF) creates 12 points a night off of assists. Not only that, but his passing sets him up for 9 assist opportunity a night. Davis’s total offensive output 28.6 points, Blake’s is 34.8.. and that’s not adjusted for equal minutes.. Per 48 (nba.com doesn’t have 36) Davis is 38.2, Blake is 46.9…

For the most part that comparison is pointless.. But what I’m getting at is, it’s hard for me to back the idea that “he does everything for them” when we have guys that literally mean everything to their teams production. Harden for example scores 34% of his team’s points and dishes out 43% of his teams assists, Davis 32% and 10%. Harden is responsible for 44 points a night, his per 48 would be 58 a night.. Which would be over half of his teams output every single game. That’s a very, very large difference, and very massive chunk of responsibly. Same goes for someone like Curry, or LeBron. They generate so much more than looking at a stat-line will show, and you can see it show in every game.

But putting all of that aside, and forget the W/L record. Just looking a numbers alone, when has 24 and 10 ever been so mind blowing? Lol….. Blake did it last year, as well as 23 & 12 as a rookie, Bosh did it in Toronto, Love in Minny, Aldridge is doing it, Cousins at nearly 24 and 13… I realize he plays well at both ends, I realize he gives an extra block more per game than the average big man, I realize he’s been efficient, but we have posts around here that make it sound like this dude is averaging 30 and 14 and throwing in 5 blocks a night for good measure. He’s giving you run of the mill solid big man numbers, he’s not shooting through the roof with astronomical numbers that we’ve yet to see before. And even if we tossed out team record and compared him to Harden statically, Harden leads the league in scoring, 2nd in assists from non-point guards (LeBron), rebounds just as well as Davis per his position.

Also, defensively I do think he is very good (verge of great even, or too soon?). But he’s not that team’s back-bone as a defender. Their defense, at this point, doesn’t rely on his strengths like a Noah, or Marc Gasol, or arguably even a LeBron/Bosh in Miami. He makes lots of great individual plays, lots of plays with his length. Great at reaching perimeter shots quickly for blocks, passing lanes and deflecting skip passes, he’s very good in all those areas. But he’s not a great rim protector, he still needs to work on guarding strong guys inside too. I know “he averages over two blocks a night”, so does Pau Gasol…. Obviously Davis is a much better defender than Gasol, that’s not my point. My point is staring across a stat-line without context shouldn’t be the biggest factor in MVP votes.

Also as far as the PER thing goes.. I do believe it can be a useful stat, but I don’t think it should be strongly relied upon for MVP, also hate that “efficiency” is often used when discussing PER. Remember before Durant came back Russ’s PER was like 33.something (Mr. Efficient lol)…. Anyways, PER only rises and falls with your plusses and your minuses. Up with positive stats like made shot, steal, block, etc. and down with negatives like fouls, misses, turnovers. Davis, as mentioned with the passing, assisting, limited offensive responsibly, earlier in my post isn’t in a lot of positions to turn the ball over. Can you guess what the strongest weight for the negative part of PER is? Turnovers by far. Davis makes the most of his shots, but his FG% isn’t so mind-blowing that I would assume he would have the best PER ever. (why I looked up the formula). Right now what Davis is doing to maintain his super PER is avoid fouls, and make free throws.. Obviously the points, rebounds, etc. help but as mentioned before those numbers aren’t anything we haven’t saw before. I don’t think Davis having the best PER ever is really “something we’ve never seen before” but more so that usually marquee, superstar level guys are put in positions where they can’t average virtually zero turnovers. Probably why someone like Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Duncan/KG, or LeBron James doesn’t already have an unbreakable PER record anyways.

Anyway I’m not trying to nitpick or undervalue Davis in any way with this post. All of you who think he’s the future star of the league I am in complete agreement with you, 100%. In fact, in the redraft thread I think I was the only person who said I would pick him over Durant. So I obviously think very highly of his game, and he has multiple MVP awards coming his way. But I do not believe he deserves it this year, from watching him play or statically stacking him against others, even if we didn’t put as much weight on team record. There are 3-4 guys that I would for sure put ahead of him right now.

I only skimed this has I don't like to read long post lol. I understand what you are saying about davis but I think the big thing with davis is that for a guy that is only 21 going to be 22 this year and for a guy in his 3erd season and who coming into the league it was said offisve was a weakness for him he has improved a lot already and he still has a like 2-3 years before he gets to like prim age so it is just scary to think that he could still get even better and he also blocks more shoots then most players. I hear you about the assist but look at a guy like KD who in his first like 3 season only averaged like 2-3 assist a game and has now been like 5-6 a game. My point is the guy is only 21 almost 22 still has room to improve and yet he is aregurbey the best big man in the league or at least top 4.

[PhantomPain]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

ojandpizza...your last paragraph says you are not trying to nitpick or undervalue Davis in any way, but that is exactly what your post did. You nitpicked and undervalued him as a player the entire post. No offense taken since I am not related to Davis nor do I have any stake in how he does and some of your points are valued. But let's call a spade a spade. If that post isn't nitpicking or undervaluing Davis, what would you call that?

I don't know, I guess I look at things a bit differently. The offense doesn't run through him yet the Pelicans wouldn't even be sniffing .500 without him plus he has done all he has done while NOT being the focal point. Actually, the fact that he isn't the focal point on offense is absurd.

As of the article written January 7th, Davis is also by far the best clutch player in the NBA and it isn't even within the same galaxy close. Maybe things have changed since then, but as of that date, this is what the article had to say:

How fantastic is Davis? He’s so fantastic that he’s an MVP candidate and the NBA’s leader in Player Efficiency Rating even though he is – by far – the most underutilized late-game weapon in the NBA today. Davis is the atomic bomb of late-game weapons, really, as his numbers annihilate the competition. Most impressive: his league-leading 1.81 points per possession in the clutch is leaps, and leaps, and leaps and bounds ahead of Green, who ranks second at 1.39. And then there’s his too-big-to-believe 90 percent shooting from the field, which again blows away the rest of the league (Pau Gasol ranks second among qualified players at 63 percent). Davis also ranks seventh in clutch rebounds and has committed a grand total of zero turnovers in clutch situations this season, even though he is still just 21 years old.

All Clutch Team

Maybe Davis isn't deserving of the MVP this year regardless of the Pelicans record, but to just discredit or discount the player he is this year (forget what he has the potential to be in the years to come) and not even consider him in the conversation, I think is a little short sided. Don't get me wrong, I see some valid points as to why he shouldn't get MVP this year and I may even agree based on what Curry and Harden are doing. But Davis is having a fantastic year and if his team were in the driver's seat in their division my guess he would get even more consideration.

[ojandpizza]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

I really don't think pointing out reasons why I believe other guys have more responsibilities to their teams is necessarily nitpicking.. But no reason for us to go back and forth on that.

Pelicans definitely wouldn't be over .500 without Davis, they barely are with him. But why are we judging their play without him? If he wasn't playing he wouldn't be in the MVP discussion.

I don't really like using the bad team excuse when determining an MVP in general though. The whole point of winning the award is having your team in a good enough position to not be able to make the "well the team isn't very good" claims. There is a reason LeBron, Iverson, Garnett have won MVP awards with a subpar surrounding cast.


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[PhantomPain]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

I really don't think pointing out reasons why I believe other guys have more responsibilities to their teams is necessarily nitpicking.. But no reason for us to go back and forth on that.

Pelicans definitely wouldn't be over .500 without Davis, they barely are with him. But why are we judging their play without him? If he wasn't playing he wouldn't be in the MVP discussion.

I don't really like using the bad team excuse when determining an MVP in general though. The whole point of winning the award is having your team in a good enough position to not be able to make the "well the team isn't very good" claims. There is a reason LeBron, Iverson, Garnett have won MVP awards with a subpar surrounding cast.


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I guess I considered it nitpicking because you literally picked apart about every aspect that you could on Davis. Not saying there is anything wrong with it, just that I disagreed that it isn't nitpicking. Either way, you are fully entitled to your opinion and as I said you have some good points.

As for the team not being .500 without him, I brought that up because I would personally consider that part of what makes an MVP. The Most Valuable Player. And considering you pointed out how he isn't the focal point of the offense, in my mind, the fact that they are "considerably" worse without him makes him stand out even more, IMO.

But I digress because I know that while Davis is having a great year, he isn't having the best MVP campaign so far. Still a lot of games left so let's see how it all plays out.

[wwharton]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

To add to what I just said. I think Davis's MVP campaign is very Kevin Love - ish. I'm not comparing him to Love, I'm not saying good stats bad team, none of that before it starts a completely new and unintended side argument lol..

I'm just saying it's similar in terms of they both carry a large burden of their teams statically output, without having the team necessarily structured around them.

To keep it simple and not drag other positions into the conversation.. I think watching them their is a large difference in how Love or Davis led a team compared to Duncan or KG. Everyone was an extension of those two, where with Love and Davis I feel like they more so just carry the statical load. If that makes any sense.


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I just think it's funny that you had to "add to what you just said" lol.

I only skimed this has I don't like to read long post lol. I understand what you are saying about davis but I think the big thing with davis is that for a guy that is only 21 going to be 22 this year and for a guy in his 3erd season and who coming into the league it was said offisve was a weakness for him he has improved a lot already and he still has a like 2-3 years before he gets to like prim age so it is just scary to think that he could still get even better and he also blocks more shoots then most players. I hear you about the assist but look at a guy like KD who in his first like 3 season only averaged like 2-3 assist a game and has now been like 5-6 a game. My point is the guy is only 21 almost 22 still has room to improve and yet he is aregurbey the best big man in the league or at least top 4.

But does any of this mean he should be the MVP? I don't see anything here that should effect the voting for MVP one way or another.

[redsrule]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

Considering Curry and Harden play with the ball in their hands most of the time it's not a shock they have more responsibilities to their team. Davis needs to improve passing the ball, but to use arguably the best passing big in the NBA to compare is not good. Assists are a lot like RBI in baseball too, in that the stat by itself isn't anything special. You can't control if the person you are passing it to is going to make the shot. Just like you can't control who is on base (if anyone) ahead of you. Why are you knocking Davis because his guards are shoot first players? He can't make them pass it to him. A ton of the time in the P&R Davis will have an open lane or be in decent position and instead Holiday or especially Tyreke will throw up a terrible shot. Davis is about as efficient as it gets when he does shoot, is a good rebounder and the best shot blocker in the NBA.
The offense doesn't run through Davis, but that's not his fault. That's because the roster is set up bad and Monty Williams is not a good coach which further causes issues. If you watch that team, it's painfully obvious that it should run through him.

[wwharton]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

Do you Kentucky guys (or anyone else) think that as of today Davis should be MVP?

If not then I don't know what you're arguing about. The problem with comparing players is fans tend to take "reason player B maybe slightly better than player A" is the same as saying "player A is bad" which is never true. The thread is about MVP and OJ listed why he thinks others are more likely to win the award. Personally I think the kid is having an amazing season and deserves to be in the conversations, but if the season ended today there's no way he wins the award.

[PhantomPain]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

Do you Kentucky guys (or anyone else) think that as of today Davis should be MVP?

If not then I don't know what you're arguing about. The problem with comparing players is fans tend to take "reason player B maybe slightly better than player A" is the same as saying "player A is bad" which is never true. The thread is about MVP and OJ listed why he thinks others are more likely to win the award. Personally I think the kid is having an amazing season and deserves to be in the conversations, but if the season ended today there's no way he wins the award.

I have said as much that I thought he made some valid arguments as to why Davis shouldn't get the MVP as of today. But I also thought the post was extremely nitpicky and could be done to any player on any team in any year at any skill level. You can find faults in anyone, because well, because no one is perfect.

Sure I am a UK fan and I understand there are some biased views that comes with that and AD, but you don't have to be a UK fan to see that AD at the very least deserves to be in the conversation.

[wwharton]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

I have said as much that I thought he made some valid arguments as to why Davis shouldn't get the MVP as of today. But I also thought the post was extremely nitpicky and could be done to any player on any team in any year at any skill level. You can find faults in anyone, because well, because no one is perfect.

Sure I am a UK fan and I understand there are some biased views that comes with that and AD, but you don't have to be a UK fan to see that AD at the very least deserves to be in the conversation.

True but you might have to be a UK fan to read OJ's post and take it as him saying AD isn't deserving of being in the conversation, lol.

You're right, you can nitpick anyone... which is why I hate comparison threads bc, by nature, that's what you have to do when you're comparing two great players. Then, fans of the guy getting nitpicked take it pretty much the way you did. We're talking about guys in the running for MVP so of course all are great, but just putting all the things they do well next to each other won't help much in the argument. You have to look for what makes one better than another, and you can only do that by finding faults. It's not to say Davis isn't great but (in this thread anyway) to say he doesn't deserve MVP over A or B because of X, Y and Z.

I actually agree with your post... Davis is playing great, improving faster than I'd imagine and putting that team on his back. I think if OJ made a similar post in the "AD Thread" it'd be nitpicking. But here, it makes sense bc you're comparing him to other players in consideration for the MVP that many (I think including you) think are more deserving.

I will say this though, he's in the conversation enough that it's not a wrap at this point in the season. But the others would need to drop off or he'd need to be even better, leading his team to more wins. I don't think him being consistently better than what he's playing right now is realistic. His team going on a run and making the playoffs is slightly more realistic but a stretch too. Curry or Harden would have to get hurt to drop off imo so his chances are pretty slim right now.

[DJ_Solis]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

Assists are a lot like RBI in baseball too, in that the stat by itself isn't anything special. You can't control if the person you are passing it to is going to make the shot. Just like you can't control who is on base (if anyone) ahead of you.

Don't really wanna get in on this conversation, I just wanted to let you know that NBA.com keeps track of assist opportunities, which is pretty helpful.


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[PhantomPain]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

True but you might have to be a UK fan to read OJ's post and take it as him saying AD isn't deserving of being in the conversation, lol.

You're right, you can nitpick anyone... which is why I hate comparison threads bc, by nature, that's what you have to do when you're comparing two great players. Then, fans of the guy getting nitpicked take it pretty much the way you did. We're talking about guys in the running for MVP so of course all are great, but just putting all the things they do well next to each other won't help much in the argument. You have to look for what makes one better than another, and you can only do that by finding faults. It's not to say Davis isn't great but (in this thread anyway) to say he doesn't deserve MVP over A or B because of X, Y and Z.

I actually agree with your post... Davis is playing great, improving faster than I'd imagine and putting that team on his back. I think if OJ made a similar post in the "AD Thread" it'd be nitpicking. But here, it makes sense bc you're comparing him to other players in consideration for the MVP that many (I think including you) think are more deserving.

I will say this though, he's in the conversation enough that it's not a wrap at this point in the season. But the others would need to drop off or he'd need to be even better, leading his team to more wins. I don't think him being consistently better than what he's playing right now is realistic. His team going on a run and making the playoffs is slightly more realistic but a stretch too. Curry or Harden would have to get hurt to drop off imo so his chances are pretty slim right now.

I agree. I re-read his post and it isn't nitpicking nor is he saying he isn't in consideration. Actually a well thought out post that, while long, gave his opinion backed up with evidence in most cases. Maybe I was just in a different frame of mind when I initially read it, I don't know.

I am a UK fan and will always have a chance to be biased, but I try to be objective when talking about UK players. Doesn't always happen, sometimes the blue tinted glasses won't come off, but I generally try to be objective.

ojandpizza, I hope you didn't take any of my replies as attacks as that was never my intention. My apologies for not comprehending your post correctly the first time through.

[redsrule]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

Don't really wanna get in on this conversation, I just wanted to let you know that NBA.com keeps track of assist opportunities, which is pretty helpful.


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I know, I was talking about the assist stat only.

@wwharton I don't think Davis would be MVP if the season ended right now, Curry and Harden are ahead of him right now most likely. LeBron might be as well. I just think he's right there with those guys. I think you can make a legit case for or against all of the top MVP guys.

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[wwharton]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

I agree. I re-read his post and it isn't nitpicking nor is he saying he isn't in consideration. Actually a well thought out post that, while long, gave his opinion backed up with evidence in most cases. Maybe I was just in a different frame of mind when I initially read it, I don't know.

I am a UK fan and will always have a chance to be biased, but I try to be objective when talking about UK players. Doesn't always happen, sometimes the blue tinted glasses won't come off, but I generally try to be objective.

ojandpizza, I hope you didn't take any of my replies as attacks as that was never my intention. My apologies for not comprehending your post correctly the first time through.

Don't worry, he gets attacked all the time so your post was nothing. I defend him when I can because I'll probably be attacking him soon, lol.

I know, I was talking about the assist stat only.

@wwharton I don't think Davis would be MVP if the season ended right now, Curry and Harden are ahead of him right now most likely. LeBron might be as well. I just think he's right there with those guys. I think you can make a legit case for or against all of the top MVP guys.

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Yep, that's about the way I see it right now too... right behind those three but close enough to shock the world with a push with the number of games left.