The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

[ojandpizza]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

This is the grey area between Lebron superfans and Lebron superhaters. There is the class that he's in, and the class he's expected to be in. Because of his physical gifts, people still expect him to be in competition for the best NBA player ever... but he's not in that class right now. That's my problem with so many talking about what needs to happen around him for him to win titles. As good as he is physically, as high of a basketball IQ as he has and as much as he's matured, for whatever reason he hasn't been able to will teams to that next level. Sure, he's had some teams where it'd be insane for that to actually happen no matter who he is/was. But we really should pump the breaks on crowning him too much based on potential and look at reality.

Take MJ out of the league back then and say Utah wins 2 rings (very possible), is Malone considered the best in the league during that time? Possibly. Hakeem was brought up... he got his when Jordan was gone or he wouldn't have any rings either. Barkley had at least a year where he had an argument as the best player not named Jordan. So did Ewing, in a time when centers were the focus of most offenses and he was arguably the best.

Long story short, I think it's a mistake to say none of these guys are in Lebron's class. They're all HOFers and as good as Lebron is, I'd trust each of them more than him in certain situations. The man is a beast, but if his career tragically ended on Friday and we eliminated the "what ifs" I'm not putting him in a group above these players mentioned. And that's acknowledging the physical freak that he is, but in a team sport I don't know that I'd say he's done too much more as a part of a team than any of these guys.



It's a tough call. I think Hakeem is underrated personally. But during their time there were years Hakeem was definitely the best in the NBA but others where Malone was better imo.

EDIT: My bad, Dre

Ewing at no point in his career deserved to be mentioned at the level of these guys.. I'm not even sure many, if any, people even considered him better than Pippen and he even had people calling him a "sidekick".. But that's a side argument I suppose.

For the rest of this, just because YOU don't believe LeBron may be in a class ahead of those guys doesn't mean that it's just true. Because plenty of people do believe he is, fans, coaches, former players, GM, analysts, reputable people. So for you to say "he's not" especially using a ring argument as a lack of winning to justify it isn't fair.. Also considering he's now made more finals than the guys you're listing combined, won as many titles as them combined, that's a stretch of an argument to make.

LeBron, for me at least and I'm sure many others, isn't at all a "what if".. For me he could absolutely retire tomorrow and that wouldn't change my opinion on him, just like if MJ would have never come back from baseball. Hell he could have retired two years ago and my opinion wouldn't change... We don't need to see how many more rings, how many more finals trips, how many more counting career stats he needs to pile up to judge how great he was/is as a player. That's all irrelevant really.

To me he was the best player in the league for a long stretch. He had separated himself, winning titles or not, this isn't a team discussion. The only other players who have done something like that are Jordan and Kareem.. To me, that's the class he's in. Those 3.

[wwharton]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Welp, I guess I'll let it go at that. I think your reference to the grey area is interesting but I do disagree. Anyway, I'm sure there'll be many more opportunities to discuss all this.

I think the grey area is a good discussion to have if you want to take it over to the off topic thread.

It definitely needs more explanation.

I just don't see the appeal of people still clamoring for Mozgov. He got abused in small ball last year in Game 4. Even though he scored 28, they lost by 20. Game 5 he plays less than 10 minutes in another double digit loss, and then Game 6 he goes back to 30+ minutes and they only lose by 8.

But 2015 Mozgov > > > > 2016 Mozgov. You guys really want him out on the perimeter trying to guard players? In what world is that a viable strategy? When you have to choose between Frye and Mozgov, you choose Frye since he can stretch the floor and light it up. You put Mozgov in there with Thompson and you get last year all over again.

Serious question...

Why is Mosgov's 28 discredited when a team loses by 20 but you're leading the charge of hammering the players around Lebron because his stats were good (despite 8 tos) and they lost by 30+?

[wwharton]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Ewing at no point in his career deserved to be mentioned at the level of these guys.. I'm not even sure many, if any, people even considered him better than Pippen and he even had people calling him a "sidekick".. But that's a side argument I suppose.

For the rest of this, just because YOU don't believe LeBron may be in a class ahead of those guys doesn't mean that it's just true. Because plenty of people do believe he is, fans, coaches, former players, GM, analysts, reputable people. So for you to say "he's not" especially using a ring argument as a lack of winning to justify it isn't fair.. Also considering he's now made more finals than the guys you're listing combined, won as many titles as them combined, that's a stretch of an argument to make.

LeBron, for me at least and I'm sure many others, isn't at all a "what if".. For me he could absolutely retire tomorrow and that wouldn't change my opinion on him, just like if MJ would have never come back from baseball. Hell he could have retired two years ago and my opinion wouldn't change... We don't need to see how many more rings, how many more finals trips, how many more counting career stats he needs to pile up to judge how great he was/is as a player. That's all irrelevant really.

To me he was the best player in the league for a long stretch. He had separated himself, winning titles or not, this isn't a team discussion. The only other players who have done something like that are Jordan and Kareem.. To me, that's the class he's in. Those 3.

Fair point on Ewing... we can remove him from that discussion.

I think I said that's what I thought so I don't know why you're in a huff, lol. Just bc YOU and everybody else disagrees doesn't mean you're right either btw.

But lets be clear on what I'm saying...

Lebron is probably the most gifted basketball player I've ever seen. I may still pick MJ but THIS argument is a very close one. Whenever he retires, if you're ranking players based on what they are capable of on the court, he'll likely be in my top 3 too.

HOWEVER, lesser talented players have had intangibles that have helped them contribute more to team success. It could be a style that fits better in a team, more of a killer instinct that allowed them to be a more consistent closer, better at making others around them better, whatever it may be, others have had it. So, in this discussion (the discussion was about it being a shame that LBJ doesn't win more bc of having to face the WC all the time) as of right now I do not put him in a class above those guys. I certainly don't put him in a class below them, but I don't buy the notion that he just deserves more team success and the WC is hurting his legacy any more than Jordan's Bulls hurt the legacy of all the greats during his time.

[cima]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Serious question...

Why is Mosgov's 28 discredited when a team loses by 20 but you're leading the charge of hammering the players around Lebron because his stats were good (despite 8 tos) and they lost by 30+?

Not sure if you've really paid attention but I'm not leading that charge this year. I've acknowledged how poorly LeBron has played, especially last game.

As far as Mozgov goes, it's being discredited because he was a huge liability on defense as the Warriors decided to start the game small, which helped contribute to the 20 point loss, and then subsequently led to him playing 9 minutes the following game.

Love/Frye are supposed to be able to stretch the floor and provide points at least and allow space for LeBron/Irving to operate more effectively. Mozgov in 2016 isn't going to score 20+ and he's not going to stretch the floor and he'll still be a liability on D. He's not just a good option IMO.

[PabloLFC]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

But should top 3 not be decided based on their talents and gifts? Yes there are players who do a brilliant job in certain systems but there is a handful of people who could beat LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Hakeem, DeBus etc in a theoretical 1v1. While I agree with the idea that a talented guy who doesn't do it for his team shouldn't be considered for a top 3, that isn't something you can level at LeBron.

[Teddy_Long]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Because of his physical gifts, people still expect him to be in competition for the best NBA player ever... but he's not in that class right now.

where do u have lebron as greatest clutch players go? lol do u want the ball in his hands in the last minutes in a big postseason game? that's the standard when it comes to my bar.

[PabloLFC]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

So Robert Horry is top 3 all time for you? Terrible barometer.

It's not like LeBron has never showed up big time in the clutch. He killed Boston in 2012, not just in game 7 but the entirety of game 6. He had a triple double I think in the last two games of the 2013 Finals. He hit a huge 3 against Orlando in 2009, 25 straight against Detroit in 07 and outside of the postseason, one of the best and most difficult 3s I've ever seen, over Iggy, against GS in 2014.

[Teddy_Long]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

So Robert Horry is top 3 all time for you? Terrible barometer.

lol, my requirement is all star status

[wwharton]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Not sure if you've really paid attention but I'm not leading that charge this year. I've acknowledged how poorly LeBron has played, especially last game.

As far as Mozgov goes, it's being discredited because he was a huge liability on defense as the Warriors decided to start the game small, which helped contribute to the 20 point loss, and then subsequently led to him playing 9 minutes the following game.

Love/Frye are supposed to be able to stretch the floor and provide points at least and allow space for LeBron/Irving to operate more effectively. Mozgov in 2016 isn't going to score 20+ and he's not going to stretch the floor and he'll still be a liability on D. He's not just a good option IMO.

True, you've backed off a bit. And the key in what you said is that he had a great scoring game but a bad game in other areas. That's true in all these other cases too, including with Lebron... and that's kind of been my point through all of this.

Honestly, I point the finger mostly at the Cavs organization. Lue does not have the individuals in the best position to maximize their potential, including Mosgov. But even he gets a bit of a pass bc he was brought in midseason.

Either way, they gotta do something different.

But should top 3 not be decided based on their talents and gifts? Yes there are players who do a brilliant job in certain systems but there is a handful of people who could beat LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Hakeem, DeBus etc in a theoretical 1v1. While I agree with the idea that a talented guy who doesn't do it for his team shouldn't be considered for a top 3, that isn't something you can level at LeBron.

I'm not sure I completely understand but could you reply in the off-topic thread (Dre may rightfully give me a warning for keeping this discussion going this long over here, lol)

where do u have lebron as greatest clutch players go? lol do u want the ball in his hands in the last minutes in a big postseason game? that's the standard when it comes to my bar.

Not a fair comparison because I'd want the ball in Magic's hands in that situation... or Nash's hands. But that doesn't mean I expect them to score. I just expect them to make the right decision. I don't always think Lebron makes the right decision but I think he does more times than not. But I think people expect him to try to score 90% of the time, and that's not who he is or ever was.

[Smallville102001]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

No but Malone played in a stacked HOFer era and was the best PF EVER until Duncan came a long. You don't dismiss the #1 player at a position ever like it's nothing. Other than MJ and Hakeem, there's pretty much no one in the 90s you could make an argument for being better than Malone.

I missed the original context of Malone even being brought up though, so I'm not really sure what's really even being argued. Was just saying Malone was the GOAT PF until Duncan arrived and that accounts for something.

I didn't see how and when Malone came up in this thread but I think he is still the best PF of all time. In there prim I think Garnet was better then Duncan to but I would put Duncan above Garnet because he last longer.

[Teddy_Long]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Not a fair comparison because I'd want the ball in Magic's hands in that situation... or Nash's hands. But that doesn't mean I expect them to score. I just expect them to make the right decision. I don't always think Lebron makes the right decision but I think he does more times than not. But I think people expect him to try to score 90% of the time, and that's not who he is or ever was.

magic is a great example. even though he's not necessarily a scorer, you trust him in the biggest moments. lebron, on too many occassions, starts dribbling the ball in place and then shoots terrible long distance shots.

[Vni]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Game can't start soon enough.

[ojandpizza]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

where do u have lebron as greatest clutch players go? lol do u want the ball in his hands in the last minutes in a big postseason game? that's the standard when it comes to my bar.

He's the only player in league history to avenge a triple double in "clutch time" for an entire season/post season. LeBron has hit 3 game winning buzzer beaters in the playoffs, the same number as Jordan. Four go ahead shots in the "final seconds" of playoff games, through the past 15 years no player has had more. In the playoffs LeBron has taken 10 potential go-ahead shots in the finals 5 seconds of the 4th or OT, he's made 6 of them, Jordan was 4 of 11.. And LeBron is 8 of 19 on potential game tying/go ahead shots in the final 24 seconds of 4th or OT in the post season.. Kobe is 7 of 28.


That was as of last season.

Regardless of what you bar is anyways, what a player has done in the final 5 seconds of a very small portion of their career games doesn't/shouldn't define if his career is better/worse than someone else's.

Is LeBron the MJ, Horry, etc of hitting shots at the very last second.. No, but nobody else is either. And those maybe 10 or so games you have of that shot popping throughout your entire thousand game career are definitely not what define you as a player.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Thank goodness there's a game tonight.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Obviously I want the Cavs to win, but I really want to see people's reactions if they win and win comfortably tonight with Love out.

From all NBA to Slava Medvedenko 2.0 in a span of a year.

Ooooh, I can't wait for the takes tonight!