NBA Off Topic Thread

[illwill10]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

I still look at that package and think "Clippers yall really dumb"

Pick wise, yeah. Player wise, no. Morris wanted to be traded, Batum said he's retiring after this year, and RoCo wasn't getting minutes like that when Mann returned. Unless you win a title, you don't trade 2 firsts, swap, and 2 seconds for a rental. So they're likely resigning Harden or letting him go for cap space. This is the definition of All-In. They don't control their first round picks through '29. All your key guys are in their mid 30s, besides "Mr. Untouchable" Mann lol.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

Think they all can be UFAs after this year if I’m not mistaken.

And trying to predict what/who will sign and how much right now is a pointless exercise.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

Pick wise, yeah. Player wise, no. Morris wanted to be traded, Batum said he's retiring after this year, and RoCo wasn't getting minutes like that when Mann returned. Unless you win a title, you don't trade 2 firsts, swap, and 2 seconds for a rental. So they're likely resigning Harden or letting him go for cap space. This is the definition of All-In. They don't control their first round picks through '29. All your key guys are in their mid 30s, besides "Mr. Untouchable" Mann lol.

Yeah its the picks I'm thinking about. Harden just isn't the guy to go all-in with and he has proven that multiple times

[TMagic]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

Hi everyone! Magic here. Just a bit of basketball philosophy slash barbershop talk...

Someone I know who is the ultimate Lebron ***** was rehashing the age old, Jordan had it tougher than Bron. Today's league is soft. Blah blah....(mind you that IS NOT the discussion. I mean you can feel free to have that discussion. But that's not what I'm talking about lol)

So being silly I go "I don't know man...I remember back when they introduced classic teams to 2K and in PNO. I picked the Snitch Dlo Lakers. My opponent picked the 96 Bulls. That was like a 70 overall team vs a 99. I was like 'Of course theyd pick the best player and best team!' But I smoked him."

And that's when I had a sorta "epiphany"...because it wasn't just that one time...ANY time an opponent online picked a classic, 99 overall team it was barbecue chicken lol

So that brings me to the discussion...maybe when people argue the present vs the past, they are doing so through different lenses. And this obfuscates the discussion.

People who say that players were better before may have an argument. You could possibly conceive that player pool back in the day was overall more "skilled" all around than the player pool now.

But my thinking is that, while that could POSSIBLY be accurate, that shouldn't be an indictment of the current players/league as being necessarily less skilled. And the reason I say that is because the NBA as a whole has gotten BETTER at basketball

So sure...having a team thats good in isolation is cool. But having a team thats good at pnr offense is better. Having a player that can hit tough shots over defenders is cool. But having an OFFENSE that gets open shots is better. Having a team thats money from 15 feet out is cool. But having a team that is money from deep is better

So the argument of which era had the best players is difficult to engage with because teams are constructed completely differently. Different skills are/were prioritized. It's less about overall, individual talent and more about specialization and fit within a scheme

As an example, let's think about the modern big and compare it to the big of years past. Yes. I dont think someone like Draymond is on the same individual level as say Ewing. But on a TEAM level, I don't know if Ewing actually has more value on a per possession basis than Draymond.

That seems crazy at first. But Draymond is providing a lot with his ability to defend every single position at every single area on the court, which includes being able to defend the most efficient play in the game (pnr). Then on offense, he spaces the floor, can initiate offense, and was a constant threat in the pnr game with his ability to dribble, pass, and shoot. Ewing and his ilk would be roasted by today's spread, pnr, and movement offenses. I don't have the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that on a per possession basis, a Draymond pnr is gonna lead to more buckets than a Ewing post up/iso. Could you imagine Ewing attempting to guard Steph on the perimeter?...now, being a big that is able to switch out and defend the perimeter is a skill coaches look for when making assessments.

And that's where I'm at with it. Today's NBA has gotten SMARTER at the game. They've gotten better at constructing teams, in game strategy and prioritizing certain skills over others to maximize efficiency on both ends of the court

So yeah, maybe you can say someone that knows how to drive a stick shift is a more "skilled" driver. But what value is that ACTUALLY providing in today's world where every car is automatic? [emoji23]

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[DieHardYankee26]

NBA Off Topic Thread

That’s a rough comparison. Does a Draymond PnR result in more PPP than a Ewing post up? Maybe, but would it if Draymond was in a pick and roll with Greg Anthony and John Starks vs Ewing posting up with Steph behind the 3 point line? Ewing was damn near out there by himself.

As for the eras and different skillsets, it cuts both ways. Ewing or Shaq can’t guard anyone on the perimeter, but who now is guarding them in the post?

[Master Live 013]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

Are those 1st unprotected?

[ojandpizza]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

Hi everyone! Magic here. Just a bit of basketball philosophy slash barbershop talk...

Someone I know who is the ultimate Lebron ***** was rehashing the age old, Jordan had it tougher than Bron. Today's league is soft. Blah blah....(mind you that IS NOT the discussion. I mean you can feel free to have that discussion. But that's not what I'm talking about lol)

So being silly I go "I don't know man...I remember back when they introduced classic teams to 2K and in PNO. I picked the Snitch Dlo Lakers. My opponent picked the 96 Bulls. That was like a 70 overall team vs a 99. I was like 'Of course theyd pick the best player and best team!' But I smoked him."

And that's when I had a sorta "epiphany"...because it wasn't just that one time...ANY time an opponent online picked a classic, 99 overall team it was barbecue chicken lol

So that brings me to the discussion...maybe when people argue the present vs the past, they are doing so through different lenses. And this obfuscates the discussion.

People who say that players were better before may have an argument. You could possibly conceive that player pool back in the day was overall more "skilled" all around than the player pool now.

But my thinking is that, while that could POSSIBLY be accurate, that shouldn't be an indictment of the current players/league as being necessarily less skilled. And the reason I say that is because the NBA as a whole has gotten BETTER at basketball

So sure...having a team thats good in isolation is cool. But having a team thats good at pnr offense is better. Having a player that can hit tough shots over defenders is cool. But having an OFFENSE that gets open shots is better. Having a team thats money from 15 feet out is cool. But having a team that is money from deep is better

So the argument of which era had the best players is difficult to engage with because teams are constructed completely differently. Different skills are/were prioritized. It's less about overall, individual talent and more about specialization and fit within a scheme

As an example, let's think about the modern big and compare it to the big of years past. Yes. I dont think someone like Draymond is on the same individual level as say Ewing. But on a TEAM level, I don't know if Ewing actually has more value on a per possession basis than Draymond.

That seems crazy at first. But Draymond is providing a lot with his ability to defend every single position at every single area on the court, which includes being able to defend the most efficient play in the game (pnr). Then on offense, he spaces the floor, can initiate offense, and was a constant threat in the pnr game with his ability to dribble, pass, and shoot. Ewing and his ilk would be roasted by today's spread, pnr, and movement offenses. I don't have the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that on a per possession basis, a Draymond pnr is gonna lead to more buckets than a Ewing post up/iso. Could you imagine Ewing attempting to guard Steph on the perimeter?...now, being a big that is able to switch out and defend the perimeter is a skill coaches look for when making assessments.

And that's where I'm at with it. Today's NBA has gotten SMARTER at the game. They've gotten better at constructing teams, in game strategy and prioritizing certain skills over others to maximize efficiency on both ends of the court

So yeah, maybe you can say someone that knows how to drive a stick shift is a more "skilled" driver. But what value is that ACTUALLY providing in today's world where every car is automatic? [emoji23]

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

All this is obvious IMO and silly we debate.. There aren't many of us who grew up watching the 90s that looked back at clips from the 60s and thought "wow the game was so much better back then", we recognized the evolution of it all, but 30 more years go by and we just assume it stopped evolving. I know there are many changes that people who watched previous eras aren't fond of, and that's justifiable, but people fail to acknowledge that it's BETTER basketball regardless of what pleases them more as a viewer.

I don't knock the players for it. Just like I don't knock the players now who might not translate as well backwards either. A player is only as good as his production relative to the league he played in. But teams, systems, play-styles wouldn't change for the worse. That doesn't even make logical sense. Like let's just all agree to voluntarily coach/run our teams in a way that is less effective.. I can't wrap my head around those thoughts.

I wouldn't even argue that players were more skilled then either. I'd argue the opposite. Maybe it depends what we are defining as a skill, but those rosters had 2-3 dudes on the team just for being tall, guys who's only above average skill was to rebound, offenses that needed a "true" PG regardless of what else he could even provide just because play-making wasn't coming from the other 4 spots on the floor.. I'm no saying players like that aren't in the league now, or that the entire league was that way back then, but the % feels vastly smaller now.

All that said, players develop traits that suit today's style and back then to fit that play style. There is give and take with how this relates to each era. In the Draymond example it's easy to see his value now guarding all 5 positions but he's likely not guarding 1-5 back then nearly as effective facing true bigs back then.. Even if he could we wouldn't see it because you didn't really switch 1-5 back then anyways. On the reverse of that he would also look like a much better defender positionally if allowed to be a bit more handsy. So who knows.

That’s a rough comparison. Does a Draymond PnR result in more PPP than a Ewing post up? Maybe, but would it if Draymond was in a pick and roll with Greg Anthony and John Starks vs Ewing posting up with Steph behind the 3 point line? Ewing was damn near out there by himself.

As for the eras and different skillsets, it cuts both ways. Ewing or Shaq can’t guard anyone on the perimeter, but who now is guarding them in the post?

This is all true, but I think his point is more so the big picture. Not a lot of bigs are going to shut down Ewing in the post, but how far is Ewing in the post taking you against the way teams play now? 33% from the three point line is the same as 50% from two. If you're isolating one side of the floor to post a guy over and over how much points and how much more efficient above league average would he need to be for that to win out? Ewing's peak yeas are around 55% from the floor, but LEAGUE AVERAGE 3pt% has been over that 33% since like 1991.. A league average player taking a shot now is nearly equal to the PPP you get from isolating HOF big men 30 years ago. As much as people hate watching a 3pt contest every night teams realistically probably waited too long to adopt higher 3pt volumes.

And this part

if Draymond was in a pick and roll with Greg Anthony and John Starks vs Ewing posting up with Steph behind the 3 point line? Ewing was damn near out there by himself.

.. A lot of teams had a Greg Anthony and John Starks, that kinda backs his entire argument. Not many teams now have dudes just out there by himself surrounded with guys who don't elevate the team offense and make bigs have less dimensions to their game.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

There’s too many moving parts in the big picture for me to get involved in that. It’s more Draymond to me. It’s beyond eras, he’s not even as valuable to half the other teams in the league now as he is to his own.

[illwill10]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

Are those 1st unprotected?

The 2026 is the worst of Houston(1-4p protected), OKC, and LAC. 2028 is unprotected, 2029 swap is 1-3 protected

[ggsimmonds]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

So the argument of which era had the best players is difficult to engage with because teams are constructed completely differently. Different skills are/were prioritized.

Its that.

(You can stop reading, what follows is my own take)
My own personal opinion is that players of today are more skilled because today's game prioritizes spacing and an open court. Players in Jordan's era were far stronger and tougher because that was the environment.

There isn't an objectively correct answer to which era was "better" because its going to boil down to personal preference. Do you like a wide open game of teams exchanging 3 point shots or a slower iso type game?

The exception to today's players being more skilled is the post up game and footwork. Guys today just don't have the footwork of big men from the past.

You hit on something that is one of the things that I think about often, yes players and teams play the game smarter today, but thats become a negative to me. Because of the rise of analytics and the role math has in the game, there is an objectively better way to play the game, and so everyone does that. The result is every team feels like the same.

My favorite era was the early 2000s and I think a large part of that has to do with how it was immediately after the rule changes designed to open the game up but before everyone wised up to the new meta to use gamespeak. You had the slow and physical Pistons, but you also had the 7 second Suns, and the Celtics being gunslingers (think Antoine Walker led the league in 3 pt attempts). Then you had the iso guys like T-Mac and Melo, or the stretch 4s of Dirk and KG. The Kings ran a Horns offense which isn't too removed from what Joker and Embid are doing when they operate out of the elbow area. There were just so many different flavors in the league during that decade. I don't care if it was "better" than any other era, I just think it was more enjoyable to watch.

[Master Live 013]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

Reading these posts I just got an idea, if there was ever a time machine and we could pit Era's teams against each other, the solution to the "with which rules do we play with?" questions is: we alternate between rules by era, taking into consideration the higher seed (not getting into how we determine the seeds now ).


So Curry Warriors (not the Durant version) against Russell Celtics (lets say C's are the higher seed for argument); C's get to play with their specific year rules at home, same with the Warriors etc.


*These would also include the "physicality factor* We are importing the refs too baby!


The contrast in styles is just what dreams are made of.





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[Jeffx]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

UNC legend and former Suns star Walter Davis (uncle of Hubert) passes away at age 69.


R.I.P. Sweet D

https://theathletic.com/5025255/2023/11/02/walter-davis-death-unc-suns/

[illwill10]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

https://twitter.com/MarkG_Medina/status/1720192772312039934?t=LI38PMvwyFe2INznDSNb2g&s=19

https://twitter.com/ClutchPoints/status/1720197216739246251?t=_Mj6RcEMS75CDwhwUORjRQ&s=19

Talking about "I'm not a system player. I'm a system". All the my sacrifices were appreciated, like he didn't bring it up any chance he had last year lol. It's almost like he doesn't realize what his role will be with the Clippers, like he's not the third option. Talking about being on a leash, but had the ball the second most behind Luka all year. Then, the next sentence saying I'll do what T-Lue wants me to do to win lol

I'm just glad it's over, and hopefully Sixers can be a normal team without the consistent drama lol

[MrDubya]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

I still don't have any interest in the tournament. I feel like it's not going to matter until the knockout stage.

I'm someone who doesn't fully likes the format of the Play-in either. I rather it be 8-9-10, than 7-10. I rather it be the final spot up for grabs. I would prefer the winner of the 9-10 matchup faces the 8th seed for the final spot

I agree with you here. That is my thinking as well. I’d prefer the traditional 1-8 seeds automatically qualify, then the winner of 9-10 gets the opportunity to play the bottom qualifying team for a shot.

[zello144]

Re: NBA Off Topic Thread

https://twitter.com/MarkG_Medina/sta...NznDSNb2g&s=19

https://twitter.com/ClutchPoints/status/1720197216739246251?t=_Mj6RcEMS75CDwhwUORjRQ&s=19

Talking about "I'm not a system player. I'm a system". All the my sacrifices were appreciated, like he didn't bring it up any chance he had last year lol. It's almost like he doesn't realize what his role will be with the Clippers, like he's not the third option. Talking about being on a leash, but had the ball the second most behind Luka all year. Then, the next sentence saying I'll do what T-Lue wants me to do to win lol

I'm just glad it's over, and hopefully Sixers can be a normal team without the consistent drama lol

https://www.instagram.com/p/CzE2-rtPEYC/

Pretty much lol