NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

[Solid_Altair]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

We agree on the first point.

As to your second option, I don't really think it'd be necessarily better than what we have now. The essense is quite similar, except that you want everything to stop the opponent. Think of what this would grant to taller fighters and to body 1-2s.

[SUGATA]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

We agree on the first point.

As to your second option, I don't really think it'd be necessarily better than what we have now. The essense is quite similar, except that you want everything to stop the opponent. Think of what this would grant to taller fighters and to body 1-2s.

What we have now in stand up striking - is TERRIBLE. The most terrible ever stand up game in UFC = random chaotic exchange w/o strategy (which should be based on your and the opponent's current conditions), w/o Striking advantage at all, this is terrible, only frustration and the full lack of the real progress and evolution in depth in Stand up striking, no reward, no knowledge, especially even in small lag/delay.

Almost every player here is complaining about the stand up striking, eve more - with strike interruption, which was implemented by GCs W/O HIT STUNS at the same time, it becomes even more worse. Why? because it becomes even more random and unpredictable, your planned _successful_ combo will be easily stopped by quick strike by the opponent even after getting several clear powerful strikes in a row - this is terrible.
W/o strike interruption patch - only FBHR will be possibl to stop the combo, and to cause FBHR the player must to perform successful Combo. This require more skill with keeping in mind how to get it right:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...s-how-use.html



There will NOT be any problems with taller fighters, because of:
- Amplitude - high reach has a disadvantage on short distance, i.e. the same his strike which dominates on long distance looses his dmg on short so less hit stun and less stopping power. But short reach conversely will get an advantage in close distance and will dominate over long reach = real life physics = balance!
- with my New stand up Footwork mechanics the short reach fighter will get many tools to evade taller opponent's strikes and close the distance if he is skilled enough:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...scussions.html

> Please, pay attention to ALL my threads:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...rchid=12787264
I've created and roughly tuned in these threads together complex and balanced Stand up gameplay, of course it still needs testing, balancing and tuning in details.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

There will NOT be any problems with taller fighters, because of:
- Amplitude - high reach has a disadvantage on short distance, i.e. the same his strike which dominates on long distance looses his dmg on short so less hit stun and less stopping power. But short reach conversely will get an advantage in close distance and will dominate over long reach = real life physics = balance!

You don't need a lot of stopping power. You just need a tiny bit to be able to stop the opponent. Right?

That would be enough to make taller fighters even more OP.

[SUGATA]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

You don't need a lot of stopping power. You just need a tiny bit to be able to stop the opponent. Right?

That would be enough to make taller fighters even more OP.

Dude may be I don't get you words right.
The game needs Striking advantage factor, which is caused by Hit stuns and Guard stuns when strike was blocked.
The current game does not have these all at all.
The Stopping power - is the cause by which you get or create(!) conditions to strike more safely and even guaranteed or conversely you can not and must to think only about defense and evades = less randomness, less button mashing, more mind game and planning creativity and training = more skill.
How?
By bringing Hit/Guard stuns, Striking advantage, Amplitude - all these in details are described in my New stand up Striking mechanics thread.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

I agree that the game needs more stopping power. But it'd have to be done by risk and reward, not damage.

I understand that you're using damage as a criteria only as a shortcut. But I think that would be a disaster. It was already based on damage in UFC 2, though the measures are very different from what you propose.

What you want is for everything to stop everything. And you want the duration of the stun to depend on damage. My guess is that would make things even worse, because of how the combos work and the differences in range between the fighters (which are not balanced like in an arcade game).

The mix ups would become super OP and taller fighters, too.

Unfortunately I cannot tell you exactly how I think it should be. But I suppose I can say that the frames should definitely be tuned, strike per strike; not based on damage. And I also thin there should be some systematic exceptions to stopping power, so that we could have some exchanges in the game.

[SUGATA]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

I agree that the game needs more stopping power. But it'd have to be done by risk and reward, not damage.

I understand that you're using damage as a criteria only as a shortcut. But I think that would be a disaster. It was already based on damage in UFC 2, though the measures are very different from what you propose.

What you want is for everything to stop everything. And you want the duration of the stun to depend on damage. My guess is that would make things even worse, because of how the combos work and the differences in range between the fighters (which are not balanced like in an arcade game).

The mix ups would become super OP and taller fighters, too.

Unfortunately I cannot tell you exactly how I think it should be. But I suppose I can say that the frames should definitely be tuned, strike per strike; not based on damage. And I also thin there should be some systematic exceptions to stopping power, so that we could have some exchanges in the game.

UFC 1-2 does not have Hit stuns and Striking advantage. They have FBHR and Combo MP (in UFC 2 only FBHR are based on damage) - both are not good things, both are crutches to fix initially broken striking core/mechanics. And as all players are still complaining about it, that was useless.

As i said above there will be a BALANCE (no OP) between short and long reach fighters, i dont see any source for OP for taller fighters.

About yr last words - sadly, it seems you dont read 1st post (main post) in this thread fully or may be missed it, i said about "Analog strike crushing" (entire #3 point in the system) many monthes ago from the start:

3) CRUSHING (Stopping power):
In arcade fightings almost all strikes which hit opponent on his startup strike will crush / stop his strike regardless of its strength.
In UFC you can make ANALOG strike crushing: when one strike #1 landed on other #2 strike's startup (starting strike), system is counting FINAL DAMAGE of both strikes and if #1 strike final damage is >0.8 of strike #2 final damage - starting strike #2 will be stopped, if <0.8 - starting strike #2 will not be stopped but a bit weakened by misleading, <0.3 - no effect at all (ex, no effect by Jab on Superman punch).
Every strike’ final damage is changing analog/dynamically. Strike final DAMAGE depends on:
- my Stamina
- opponent’s Stamina (less Stamina – more damage & Full body hit reaction FBHR)
- not depends on my striking limb’s Health
- final total Strike damage depends on additional Damage bonus from: 1. Combo multiplier (CM) 2. Counter window 3. Physics driven damage with the right timing (when opponent is moving toward my strike).
> So, begin your move when you have striking advantage, Don’t begin your move but go to defense Blocking when you at striking disadvantage.

Both strike are hitting at the same time:
Wins those strike which has more final dmg.
Strike w higher final damage crushes (intercept, stopped) opponent's strike.
Which SA i recieve then?
- More final dmg = more SA = more hit stun = more "struggling" animation that illustrates this hit stun (more stumble).


The final dmg determines which strike will crush another strike.

Roundhouse kick on Low stamina: slower startup and recovery, the same Hit phase, lower dmg
Interrupting Hook on High stamina: normal fast startup, high dmg.
Resulting damage Hook > weakened Kick = Fighter w Kick is struggled.

Quick Jab wiill be too weak to crush Roundhouse kick (<0.3 for ex) so no Momentum conflict. Hook is enough powerful strike to revert Kick's momentum.

Btw, we can create a system when crushing (interrupting) feature ALSO depends on how close oponent's strike is to its execution end:
- less final damage difference between 2 strikes (both has identical momentum = more length of his opponent's strike execution phase vulnerable to be crushed (Hook beats Hook even when landed on its nearly completed exe phase b/c they both have equal momentum).
- More final damage difference between 2 strikes (different momentum) = less line segment of his exe phase vulnerable to be crushed (my Hook may crush opponent powerful Kick even if has more dmg but only if landed on Kick's early exe phase while Kick has low/weak momentum weak amplitude).
This system (final damage advanatge plus right moment to land on his exe phase) is more deep and difficult than Crushing based ONLY on final damage advantage.


The most important element in all fightings - CRUSHING, i.e. your strike crushes/stops the opponent's strike on its execution (startup) phase which allow you to counter cross opponent's spam. it becomes possible when:
- i have Striking advantage over the opponent (my action will start earlier and then land sooner than his)
- some my strike has evasive properties (for ex ducking strikes), so the opponent;s strike is landing earlier but is missing above me.

In EA UFC 1-2 now as it seems to me there are no real crushing at all, because receiving hit on my startup does not stop my strike (aka "No stopping power"). Just check gifs in this thread:
Still NO real STOPPING POWER in EA UFC 2

But sometimes 1st opponent's strike interrupts my 2nd follow up strike (boosted by CM after 1st hit) and iterrupts my combo. We heard " Strike intercept – Strikes landed within the opponents initial wind up phase of a strike will halt the opponent from completing their strike".

This "interrupting" is unstable and not reliable.
Why?
Because there are NO HIT STUNS! So, as a results there are no strike advantage/disadvantage.
Listen up:
I successfully landed my 1st strike (hit), then land my 2nd strike (hit), then i "wind up" my 3rd strike powerful strike (boosted by CM for huge dmg)....
.... the opponent just strike me on 3rd strike initial phase and INTERRUPTS my combo! ... the opponent, who received TWO clear hits must to be hit stunned (strike disadvanatge) and THE ONLY option, which must to be possible to him must to be a DEFENSE (by Block, step, bwd dash, sway) ,but not attack by strike!
.....the opponent's by button mashing/spamming strikes interrupts my combo and break my plan and strategy.
So, there are NO MORE STRATEGY in stand up game because every planned combo can be "interrupted" by the opponent, w/o Hit stuns.

Implemented by GCs "interrupting strikes" feature in early patch is useless w/o hit stuns ans Striking advantage.

= this is the MAIN ISSUE OF THE CURRENT STAND UP STRIKING =

How to solve this:
- implement Hit stuns after every landed hit, hitstun's effect depends on hit's dmg
- implement Striking advantage (after dealing hit, successful evade or block) and Striking disadvantage (after receiving hit, failed evade, missed/blocked my strike).
More details here:
NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)



2P perform Strike with Execution 30F.
1P blocked this strike and gain SA +10F, it means that his next move will be 10F earlier than 2P.
2P then immediately while on -10F (strike disadvantage) launch Strike (Spinning kick) with 30F execution, instead of going to defense and Block incoming punish (b/c he is a "button spinning kick masher" he dont pay attention to his SA status, not hit checking).

> 1P launching his Punish attack strike while he is +10F (strike advantage).
Lets discuss how is BETTER to be for gameplay in this situation when 2 strikes are coming to each other (Stopping power, intercepting):

> 1P can launch fast Jab with 10F exe > then he land its hit before 2P exit from his -10F SA and be possible to block or begin his move = so 10F Jab is GUARANTEED in 10F advantage.
1P can launch powerful Jumping Kick with 40F exe > both strikes are landed at the same time > wins those who have more dmg i.e. 1P jumping kick > huge Hit stun (stumble, FBHR) in +20F > my Hook 20F is guaranteed punish (reaward).

> Now we are close to Strike intercepting when strike land on another strike execution (startup) phase – and here is the question which is better:
1 variant: (no effect on crushing from dmg or execution phase sector)
1P can launch slower but w more dmg Hook with 20F exe > then he landed its hit on 10^th frame of 30frames execution of 2P Strike = so 1P Hook crushes (stops/intercepts) 2P Kick and causes Major counter (much dmg bonus) > more Hit stun (b/c more final dmg = more Hits stun = more SA) for ex +8F on Counter hit for Hook > 1P continue his attacks while he has SA, 2P is forced to go to Defense block instead of striking on negative SA (we solve button mashing in the game).

2 variant: (1P strike's dmg and hitted 2P strike's execution phase sector determines will be 2P strike crushed or not) i.e. ANALOG strike crushing, described at the beginning of 3).


RESUME: I think THE BEST Variant is Variant #1. Because this is more clear, more predictable, more easy to balance and tune, more stable punish to button mashers and “spin kick spammers”.
And still this #1 variant will be realistic enough because strikes final dmg and execution _dynamically changing/depending_ on many real life factors like Stamina 1P and 2P, health, physics vector (how clearly the strike landed), ratings, etc.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

I remember reading this threa, or some of this info on the old forums.

So you want some cases where a strike doesn't crush the other. And you want it to be based on damage. It is much better than what it seemed. I recommend you really draw attention to the part where you explain the 0.8 part. That really is the key to not missunderstand your suggestion.

I still think damage isn't a great option for this tuning, but this system would indeed be better than what we have in UFC 2.

I have a quetsion, though... if we land on the same time, you still want one strike to crush the other. By this do you mean that both land, but only one can continue a combo; or that only one strike actually lands?

[SUGATA]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

I remember reading this threa, or some of this info on the old forums.

So you want some cases where a strike doesn't crush the other. And you want it to be based on damage. It is much better than what it seemed. I recommend you really draw attention to the part where you explain the 0.8 part. That really is the key to not missunderstand your suggestion.

I still think damage isn't a great option for this tuning, but this system would indeed be better than what we have in UFC 2.

I have a quetsion, though... if we land on the same time, you still want one strike to crush the other. By this do you mean that both land, but only one can continue a combo; or that only one strike actually lands?

If both strikes hits at the same time - which will win? the game calculates by this algorithm:


1st step-The move with the higher damage wins (i.e. crushing the other strike).

2nd step-IF both moves have the same damage, THEN the slower move wins (larger startup)

3rd step-IF both moves have same damage and same speed, THEN the player with less health wins (as a "last chance" gameplay help).

4th step-IF everything is the same, THEN both players are hit at the same time.

Combo continues - only in 4th step. Otherwise, the strike will be crushed (interrupted) and combo stops.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Why wouldn't you take advantage of this situation to have one more way to have exchanges in the game? If they're hitting at the same time, let them actually hit eachother (even if it's not all tied).

[zeric]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

If both strikes hits at the same time - which will win? the game calculates by this algorithm:


1st step-The move with the higher damage wins (i.e. crushing the other strike).

2nd step-IF both moves have the same damage, THEN the slower move wins (larger startup)

3rd step-IF both moves have same damage and same speed, THEN the player with less health wins (as a "last chance" gameplay help).

4th step-IF everything is the same, THEN both players are hit at the same time.

Combo continues - only in 4th step. Otherwise, the strike will be crushed (interrupted) and combo stops.

when you say the strike is 'crushed', does this mean the strike is interrupted and not thrown at all? if so, I do not like that. UFC 1 was absolutely terrible in the standup and it was almost 100% because of that. If a leg kick would land, it would interrupt every single incoming strike. I really do not want the game to have a problem similar to that one

[SUGATA]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

when you say the strike is 'crushed', does this mean the strike is interrupted and not thrown at all? if so, I do not like that. UFC 1 was absolutely terrible in the standup and it was almost 100% because of that. If a leg kick would land, it would interrupt every single incoming strike. I really do not want the game to have a problem similar to that one

Crushed = interrupted = stopped on its startup frames OR weakened via misleading - it is wrote in details (read 1st post , 3) please), the results depends on crushing strike dmg, it is named ANALOG crushing.

[SUGATA]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Why wouldn't you take advantage of this situation to have one more way to have exchanges in the game? If they're hitting at the same time, let them actually hit eachother (even if it's not all tied).

This is very wrong.
Why?
1p landed 1st Hit, 2 Hit and is going to end his combo by powerful slow strike which was set upped by previous 2 (build Striking advantage) , but the opponent did weak quick strike and reset his job if hit at the same time, instead of defending. It will break the gameplay.
It also bad in real life physics- more stronger strike (more kinetic energy) dominates over weak strike when at the same time. Otherwise, it break realism.
Pay attention! I am talking about the strikes which are HIT each other at the same time (Hit phases which are usually 1-5frames meets each other):
1P with 10 frames Striking advantage (+10) throw a powerful strike with 20 frames startup, 3 frames hot phase, then 30 frames recovery, the opponent 2p throws weak 10 frames startup frames, 1 hit phase and 15 recovery. They both hits each other at the same time on 11th frame - 1p will crush (stop) 2p strike with counter bonus.
Keep in mind that both hits at the same time is very RARE situations. For other situations - ANALOG crushing.

For Striking EXCHANGE - we have ANALOG crushing, when the crushed strike is misleading and weakening but not stop at all, depending on crushing/crushed strike damages. I am sure this is much more realistic and gameplay balanced way to make strike exchange.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

I understood analog crushing. It is a way to have exchanges in the game. You do not oppose exchanges on principle. That's good.

However, why not take simultaneous hits as one way to have an exchange? Why cheat the physics in this case? Both fighters made contact. Why pretend one of them didn't?

This is just a rule that might have applied well to VF, but would do quite the opposite ofr an MMA game.

[SUGATA]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

I understood analog crushing. It is a way to have exchanges in the game. You do not oppose exchanges on principle. That's good.

However, why not take simultaneous hits as one way to have an exchange? Why cheat the physics in this case? Both fighters made contact. Why pretend one of them didn't?

This is just a rule that might have applied well to VF, but would do quite the opposite ofr an MMA game.

No cheating physics in this situation.


1st step-The move with the higher damage wins (i.e. crushing the other strike).

> means more kinetic energy dominate over less kinetic energy. And as i said the crushed strike may be stopped at all or just misleading/weakened (Analog crushing), which plays for all 4 steps.
No cheating physics

2nd step-IF both moves have the same damage, THEN the slower move wins (larger startup)

> slower move means more wind up radius - i.e. more potentional energy.
No cheating physics

3rd step-IF both moves have same damage and same speed, THEN the player with less health wins (as a "last chance" gameplay help).

> very rare situation. yes cheating physics, but this is better for gameplay.

4th step-IF everything is the same, THEN both players are hit at the same time.

> purely exchange. No cheating physics.


Again, this situation is so rare, then it does not cost so much time to discuss i think. There are much more important and discussable details (for ex pros and cons properties between different footwork elements).

[SUGATA]

Re: NEW Stand-up STRIKING mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

Even more, as I said, this new Striking mechanics is still not completely finished and balancing.
Now I am ending the NEW EXCHANGE Striking mechanics:
- what is one of the main differences between fight sim and arcade fightings? Yes, Striking exchange drama scenarious in fight sim. In arcade fighting early strike is fully crushing and stopping the opponent 's incoming strike
- with new ANALOG crushing mechanics the strikes exchange becomes truly awesome dramatic and ...conscious not blind random game, which require plan and knowledge!
But
There are so many details and aspects in this mini game to describe, it require time, I need to know that devs are interested now in this, that they are seriously interested in building stand up Striking close to this mechanics and they need details.
I don't want to loose so much time in useless discussions (that I am doing this not for myself only) which don't affect the next game...