Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

A reply to MartialMind in the Stamina thread:

Part of what a fighter learns is how to move his head JUST enough and still be able to counter.

If I want pure defensive head movement, then I move my head like Cody was moving it against Cruz, bending heavy at the waist and leaning far.

But as ZombieRommel explained to me a while back....

Basically, in FNC your head is a beach ball and the opponent's fist tracks the beach ball. If it's still for too long it tracks properly. Time the slip right and it screws the tracking. In UFC3, its digital, the game sees:

"If duck, then hook = miss"

And the precise timing of head movement isn't as important.

Does this dumb down AND restrict head movement? Yes it does without a doubt in a "Realism sense", BUT balance wise, the head movement in the game works.

Thanks or posting man. It shall help clearing the sense that the subject has been ignored.

Now...

Do you think the current slips take the head too far?

In a system of analog width of the lean, what would be the advantage of moving all the way, at an angle (not back)? If moving a little is enough, why move a lot? And a connected question: do you think the back lean is too wide in EA UFC 3?

And would you want 360 degrees, too? If so, how would the diagonal leans work? I'm glad someone already posted in this thread, suspecting of a magic angle that would evade everything.

Do you think the head movement in EA UFC 3 is dumbed down in comparison to FNC?

And that is not the case at all. The specificity of the directions means the lean window is precious, because you can't just spaz your head around to evade everything, like you can when the tracking is based on physics. I'm pretty sure there are more head movement fails in EA UFC 3 based on timing, than there were at FNC.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

From your own post, you describe defensive head movement as:

"These are large swaying motions in just about every direction.

You're making your head as hard to hit as possible.

Preemptive"

That's exactly what the standing head movement in UFC 3 is.

You missed the part where you can't counter from it.


- 4 directions =/= Omni-directional
- Doesn't take positioning into account.
- As the person moving you cannot bait your opponent to throw specific strikes because you've only got preset motions to work with
- Once you sway in a specific direction, you're locked into it for the entire duration of the motion until your head is back to the center line.

I'm repeating myself, but it should be a game of tag like in FNC. Right now we've got rock-paper-scissors. Sway A beats Punch A, B & C but loses to D which is super Arcadey (ie: Crouch > High strikes 100% of the time).

It should be way more nuanced than that.

With full control head-movement and proper hit detection you as the player can switch between all three examples whenever you want. And rather than having an artificial a 0% or 100% chance of dodging the strike your opponent throws at you, whether or not you get hit literally depends on if you moved your head out of the way of a strike. Why would that not be superior to what we have now?

It's allows for deeper interactions between players, it's more realistic and gives players more freedom in terms of movement.

What exactly are the downsides? (Besides time constraints)


Can I answer this?

Do you think the current slips take the head too far?

The set distance for the current slips is irrelevant. It's not having the freedom to decide for myself how far I want to slip that's the problem.

In a system of analog width of the lean, what would be the advantage of moving all the way, at an angle (not back)? If moving a little is enough, why move a lot?

Because moving a little means risking moving too little. In which case this happens.

And would you want 360 degrees, too? If so, how would the diagonal leans work?

I don't understand the question.

I'm glad someone already posted in this thread, suspecting of a magic angle that would evade everything.

There's no way you can lean at an angle that will dodge all punches, kicks, knees and elbows one can throw.

Do you think the head movement in EA UFC 3 is dumbed down in comparison to FNC?

Yes.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I think Solid Altar prefers the more consistent head movement system we currently have.

Plus one thing that sucked about FN was people who just spam rotating head movement.

While it wouldnt be effective in MMA it would still look ugly

Just trying to see the other side

I’d be cool with the current system with at least 8 directions. A small diagonal slip off the centerline is how most avoid straight punches.

[tissues250]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I think Solid Altar prefers the more consistent head movement system we currently have.

Plus one thing that sucked about FN was people who just spam rotating head movement.

While it wouldnt be effective in MMA it would still look ugly

Just trying to see the other side

I’d be cool with the current system with at least 8 directions. A small diagonal slip off the centerline is how most avoid straight punches.

I agreed this. FNC's head movement was fantastic but it was a boxing game. I think, it is not unsuitable for a mma game. but We need 360 head movement for certain fighters as Anderson, Cody and more.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I think Solid Altar prefers the more consistent head movement system we currently have.

Plus one thing that sucked about FN was people who just spam rotating head movement.

While it wouldnt be effective in MMA it would still look ugly

You mean like this?



There's a natural deterrent for that behavior in MMA.

Body kicks. Takedowns. Leg kicks. Clinching. Knees.

If they get knocked out a few times because they move like morons they'll learn. Or they won't and you flying knee their heads off.

[Nugget7211]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

There's no way you can lean at an angle that will dodge all punches, kicks, knees and elbows one can throw.

I'm the person who originally brought up the magic angle, and I brought it up only in the context of quickly adding it to 3, not as a general rule.

If all we changed in 3 was giving us 360 degree head movement control, it's entirely possible there'd be a spot where you'd dodge all or even just an unreasonable number of strikes because of the lack of tracking on strikes (if someone stands still, leans off angle and stays there, my fighter won't jab to their completely stationary head, he'll throw down the center line) and that it's analog hit detection, rather than hitboxes, could cause off angled ducks to dodge literally every head strike due to reading as ducking and slipping to the side, or strikes counting as hitting without hitting in terms of what we see.

So, to sum up what I mean about "magic angles", shoving 360 degree head movement into 3 in the month before launch could cause a bunch of issues due to how it overlaps with other things in the game, but having 360 degree head movement in a future game where they've designed it around it from the start would be cool.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

You mean like this?



There's a natural deterrent for that behavior in MMA.

Body kicks. Takedowns. Leg kicks. Clinching. Knees.

If they get knocked out a few times because they move like morons they'll learn. Or they won't and you flying knee their heads off.

Nah

Im talking bout when dudes would literally hold block and just repeatedly rotate their stick. If you played FN3 you know what im talking about. It looked really bad

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

You mean like this?



There's a natural deterrent for that behavior in MMA.

Body kicks. Takedowns. Leg kicks. Clinching. Knees.

If they get knocked out a few times because they move like morons they'll learn. Or they won't and you flying knee their heads off.

The deterrent doesnt mean its not ugly to look at though. The fact is there are maybe 5 UFC fighters that use head movement like this. Adding it to every one would encourage people to use it and adding it to only 5 fighters would be alot of work for very little benefit.

[tissues250]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Nah

Im talking bout when dudes would literally hold block and just repeatedly rotate their stick. If you played FN3 you know what im talking about. It looked really bad

EA UFC2 had same issue a little bit, not much like it. If someone holding lean back, we couldn't punish it with any striking.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I'm the person who originally brought up the magic angle, and I brought it up only in the context of quickly adding it to 3, not as a general rule.

If all we changed in 3 was giving us 360 degree head movement control, it's entirely possible there'd be a spot where you'd dodge all or even just an unreasonable number of strikes because of the lack of tracking on strikes (if someone stands still, leans off angle and stays there, my fighter won't jab to their completely stationary head, he'll throw down the center line) and that it's analog hit detection, rather than hitboxes, could cause off angled ducks to dodge literally every head strike due to reading as ducking and slipping to the side, or strikes counting as hitting without hitting in terms of what we see.

So, to sum up what I mean about "magic angles", shoving 360 degree head movement into 3 in the month before launch could cause a bunch of issues due to how it overlaps with other things in the game, but having 360 degree head movement in a future game where they've designed it around it from the start would be cool.

I actually agree with you.

I'm not in favor of rushing it into UFC3 at all. Even patching it in later might be too much of an overhaul to do properly, I don't know. But I just hope the devs move in that direction in the future, rather than what they're doing now.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

EA UFC2 had same issue a little bit, not much like it. If someone holding lean back, we couldn't punish it with any striking.

Yeah i really hope we switch to a tracking system to stop that type of stuff from happening. It would also make accuracy much more important

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Some excellent stuff in here. The idea of 360 degree head movement not working with the current game mechanics is a fair point. I don't know how true that would be or not, but I can understand that particular reasoning.

It just kind of baffles me that people wouldn't want this in the game at all. Why wouldn't you want natural motions included? Obviously, there would be levels of fluidity based on the fighter, but its total exclusion doesn't sit right with me.

Just because head movement isn't normally as pronounced in MMA, for me that isn't a good enough reason to simplify it. In UFC 2 it was still kind of clunky, and the lean back was downright silly, but reactively dodging incoming shots was still on a somewhat decent level. Ill admit that UFC 3's stand-up game is better for the most part, but I still feel like head movement has taken a step backwards.

I should be free to fight in any style that I want. Making subtle head movements and angle changes to bait an opponent is part of fighting. And what if I wanted to treat this as a boxing game and approached it like that? It clearly wouldn't be in my best interest to do so, but if I want to fight like Floyd let me do it.

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[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Some excellent stuff in here. The idea of 360 degree head movement not working with the current game mechanics is a fair point. I don't know how true that would be or not, but I can understand that particular reasoning.

It just kind of baffles me that people wouldn't want this in the game at all. Why wouldn't you want natural motions included? Obviously, there would be levels of fluidity based on the fighter, but its total exclusion doesn't sit right with me.

Just because head movement isn't normally as pronounced in MMA, for me that isn't a good enough reason to simplify it. In UFC 2 it was still kind of clunky, and the lean back was downright silly, but reactively dodging incoming shots was still on a somewhat decent level. Ill admit that UFC 3's stand-up game is better for the most part, but I still feel like head movement has taken a step backwards.

I should be free to fight in any style that I want. Making subtle head movements and angle changes to bait an opponent is part of fighting. And what if I wanted to treat this as a boxing game and approached it like that? It clearly wouldn't be in my best interest to do so, but if I want to fight like Floyd let me do it.

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I think very few people dont want it in at all. There is a group that wants it in for every fighter. A group that wants it in for some fighters. I'm in the second group but I also dont want it to be tacked on and rushed just because a vocal group of people want FNC style head movement.

One thing that completely doesnt work for me is the realism vs. freedom issue. You want to be free to fight like Floyd with whoever even if it isnt successful, right?

My issue is its a bad look for the game to have you using 360 head movement while using Tim Johnson or Evan Dunham. There should be a clear visual difference depending on who you use. In order to have that clear difference, 360 head movement should only be given to the people who actually utilize that movement in real life. Just like we wouldnt give someone a spinning back kick who doesnt use it in real life.

If we do that it really only leaves 5% of the fighters who would use this feature which is a fine addition if the devs have time but there are so many other things that I would tackle first.

[Not_Entertained]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The people that are against the idea of 360 degrees head movement. I hate to be so blunt, but it's obvious that you guys have never done actual martial arts before. The linear and scripted (as in, a certain direction will dodge certain strikes) is FAR from realism. In real life, you have full control of your body and can move your head in any way you want so you're not limited. There's no sense of control with the "flicking" system we have currently. Sorry, but the EA UFC 3 head movement has to go.

[Trillz]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

tbh not many people in MMA use 360 head movement its too dangerous! Most people do use slip and counter shots like how it is in ea ufc 3 but i would like to see the abilty to use the 360 headmovement but ratings should make it less viable for people that dont use it making it slow. Or it could be tied into perks to quicken the speed and fluidity of it for certan fighters!