Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

It's true.

He thinks arcade fighting game logic is better for the game than real life fighting technique. There is an entire book of posts with incredible gifs, incredible points, and it's all ignored.

It's crazy.

Disagreeing isn’t the same as ignoring. He disagrees but he even said that it was something he was considering. How is that ignoring?

Also let’s not act like this thread represents the community. I agree with some of the points but it’s really 5-6 people who are very vocal about this. That isn’t the whole community. It’s a part of a small vocal piece of the community.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I just feel like there's too many fighters that don't utilize head movement like the guys we are seeing in gifs like Anderson Silva or a Cody or Dillashaw, and that's what makes those guys unique as well as some of the best. Many more fighters do actually use the kind of head movement this game gives us though.

In general, to counter all the offensive additions the dev team added, I'd love to see a variety of defensive measures too, but I want it to still be sim as well. I don't really like seeing guys bobbing & weaving then countering like Mayweather who don't really have that kind of movement like I seen in some UFC 2 videos I saw posted earlier. It's just...not right lol. I think we just need to have a variety of defensive measures overall but it doesn't have to be everyone having the ability to evade strikes with boxer-esque head movement.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

What I see in videos is not the fighter moving his head much more than needed to evade the punches. The attacks usually zap juuuust past the head. In some cases there is even the need for a force field the re-routs the arc of the strike, so it actually misses the head (common in the case of overhands). Making the slips shorter would actually make them harder to time.

As to the slipping on reaction thingy, there is no input lag. There is no responsiveness issue with head movement. That is just an illusion. And the fighters with a lower head movement stat have longer start ups. The start ups must exist, or else the head would teleport. I think the fastest start up for LW is 6 frames. In general, fully reactive head movement is something to be used against very slow attacks.

So it is intentional!!! That’s a terrible idea lol. If someone has a really high head movement rating I shouldnt have that much(if any) start up for head movement. I agree with it for guys with lower ratings. I find it funny that you say it’s an illusion but admit the start up is a mechanic in the game.

Head movement should be possible against fast strikes as well on reaction. Hell straight punches are the easiest to slip irl. That’s why it’s so important to use angles when striking.

The current slips are also far too exaggerated in all directions. The most common slips you’ll see are very slight just to get your head off centerline. Right now we have to fully commit to one side and that’s not good.

I’d be okay with the current system if start up was tuned,we were given more angles to use, and we could chain different angles instead of being forced to return to center line

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I don’t agree with that. Fighters can react and slip a jab or cross on reaction.

I don’t fully understand all the frames discussion talk so I’ll defer to you but I do feel like that when using people with good head movement it should easier reactionary slips should be more responsive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Some fighters have remarkable reaction to do that on reaction.

But their point of view is different. And even cases that look like a full reaction are often a mix of reaction and anticipation. This is why reading the opponent's patterns is so important in actual fights. This is also why feints work irl. Cruz's scouts his opponents all the time, using feints. Hunt also did it to Mir, in a very specific way: he noticed that Mir was always leaning to the side. Then he punched him counting on that and got the KO. This means that both Hunt and Mir were using anticipation.

As to the cases that look like full reaction... maybe some are, but maybe they're not. Aldo's slips vs Hominick's jabs were very impressive. But it's hard to know what wold have happened if Hominick had thrown a hook instead of a jab, to try to track the side head movement.

As players, with our different point of view and the lack of the survival instincts to not get hit in the head... we need to rely on reatcion a little less and on anticipation a little more. There is no way around this. And evenw ithw hat we have now, the end result of a competitive fight is actually very satisfactory, with plenty of dodges that look like they happened on reaction, even though they succeed mostly due to anticipation.

Head movement requires a measure of anticipation, both because of the star up and because of anticipating the angle (or good luck on reacting to that). This is both intended and inexorable.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

It's true.

He thinks arcade fighting game logic is better for the game than real life fighting technique. There is an entire book of posts with incredible gifs, incredible points, and it's all ignored. I'm not trying to be rude but it's insanely frustrating to see so many excellent, amazing points just get tossed aside like nothing.

It's crazy.



MMA is not Street Fighter or Tekken. Taking Fighting Game logic/,mechanics and putting them into a Martial Arts sim is not what we want.

Unfortunately we dont speak for everyone. There are plenty of people that do want it to be an arcade fighting game and GPD has to consider their opinions just as much as ours.

I have faith in this development team tho. They’ve gone out of their way to learn more about MMA and I think the goal is to have a fun semirealistic mma game.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I find it funny that you say it’s an illusion but admit the start up is a mechanic in the game.

Let me clarify: the illusion or confusion is thinking the start-up is input lag. Without start-up, the head would teleport. Is this what you want?

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Above is why devs don’t typically post regularly on online forums. Gpd disagrees with some of the people and it turns into him wants “goofy arcade fighting game logic”.

It’s pathetic


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Seriously, am I not allowed to disagree and discuss the reasons why?

Sent from my Pixel using Operation Sports mobile app

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Some fighters have remarkable reaction to do that on reaction.

But their point of view is different. And even cases that look like a full reaction are often a mix of reaction and anticipation. This is why reading the opponent's patterns is so important in actual fights. This is also why feints work irl. Cruz's scouts his opponents all the time, using feints. Hunt also did it to Mir, in a very specific way: he noticed that Mir was always leaning to the side. Then he punched him counting on that and got the KO. This means that both Hunt and Mir were using anticipation.

As to the cases that look like full reaction... maybe some are, but maybe they're not. Aldo's slips vs Hominick's jabs were very impressive. But it's hard to know what wold have happened if Hominick had thrown a hook instead of a jab, to try to track the side head movement.

As players, with our different point of view and the lack of the survival instincts to not get hit in the head... we need to rely on reatcion a little less and on anticipation a little more. There is no way around this. And evenw ithw hat we have now, the end result of a competitive fight is actually very satisfactory, with plenty of dodges that look like they happened on reaction, even though they succeed mostly due to anticipation.

Head movement requires a measure of anticipation, both because of the star up and because of anticipating the angle (or good luck on reacting to that). This is both intended and inexorable.

Honest question

Have you ever trained?

I’ve done some boxing and MMA. Slipping jabs/straights is all about muscle memory and reaction. Feints work because you’re reacting to their “tells”. Anticipation is usually a bad way to go unless your opponent has bad habits you can pick up on.

Anticipation vs reaction shouldnt even be a question. Head movement relies on reaction, anticipation can be an AID but it all starts with your ability to see a strike coming and react accordingly. That’s what we want

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I don't know how to say this without losing my cool and being rude, but it seems like Altair doesn't fully understand how head movement is really used in MMA.

A lot of real life fluid head movement can be reactionary, but also much of it is "frames/ or modes". Which are movement patterns that slip strikes based on striking logic. Certain strikes are generally followed up by only other certain strikes, based on momentum and what not. Knowing how combinations are thrown lets you use headmovement patterns to dodge combinations. This is a very common technique IRL, that is used alll the time, that can't be used with the UFC 3 system.

What we have now is simplified into rock, paper, scissors.

It can. You just don't know how yet.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Let me clarify: the illusion or confusion is thinking the start-up is input lag. Without start-up, the head would teleport. Is this what you want?

No it wouldnt...

Active frames are a thing you wouldnt just move from one position to another instantly.

I play fighting games as well. Start up refers to the delay between you pushing a button and the move coming out. That doesnt dictate active frames, recovery frames, hurt or hitboxes. All that stuff can still apply with less start up on head movement. Your hitbox will still be there, the amount of active frames needed to move from one point to another would be still be there. The difference is that you’d be able to react to incoming strikes

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Honest question

Have you ever trained?

I’ve done some boxing and MMA. Slipping jabs/straights is all about muscle memory and reaction. Feints work because you’re reacting to their “tells”. Anticipation is usually a bad way to go unless your opponent has bad habits you can pick up on.

Anticipation vs reaction shouldnt even be a question. Head movement relies on reaction, anticipation can be an AID but it all starts with your ability to see a strike coming and react accordingly. That’s what we want

You do realize you're saying basically the same thing, right? And people don't lean only based on strikes. They do it also due to feints.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Honest question

Have you ever trained?

I’ve done some boxing and MMA. Slipping jabs/straights is all about muscle memory and reaction. Feints work because you’re reacting to their “tells”. Anticipation is usually a bad way to go unless your opponent has bad habits you can pick up on.

Anticipation vs reaction shouldnt even be a question. Head movement relies on reaction, anticipation can be an AID but it all starts with your ability to see a strike coming and react accordingly. That’s what we want

90+ rated fighters have enough frames to slip a jab if the slip is input right after the jab.

So reactionary slips are possible if you can do it quickly.

The reality is most people can't react that fast, and some degree of anticipation is likely necessary.

But that's not far off from what you describe.

Sent from my Pixel using Operation Sports mobile app

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

No it wouldnt...

Active frames are a thing you wouldnt just move from one position to another instantly.

I play fighting games as well. Start up refers to the delay between you pushing a button and the move coming out. That doesnt dictate active frames, recovery frames, hurt or hitboxes. All that stuff can still apply with less start up on head movement. Your hitbox will still be there, the amount of active frames needed to move from one point to another would be still be there. The difference is that you’d be able to react to incoming strikes

By this terminology, there is no start-up. You input and you'll be evading 6 frames later, if you have top notch head movement on LW.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

You do realize you're saying basically the same thing, right? And people don't lean only based on strikes. They do it also due to feints.

They react to the feint and strike the same based on their opponent movement. Keyword : React

You can anticpate follow up strikes and move accordingly but the initial movement is often times based on reaction. Right now we only have anticipation as an option, for the head movement to be at it’s best we’d need both.

I would prefer free range head movement but i’d be happy with just lower start up ,more angles and the ability to chain angles together like the Shogun gif

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I don't know how to say this without losing my cool and being rude, but it seems like Altair doesn't fully understand how head movement is really used in MMA.

A lot of real life fluid head movement can be reactionary, but also much of it is "frames/ or modes". Which are movement patterns that slip strikes based on striking logic. Certain strikes are generally followed up by only other certain strikes, based on momentum and what not. Knowing how combinations are thrown lets you use headmovement patterns to dodge combinations. This is a very common technique IRL, that is used alll the time, that can't be used with the UFC 3 system.

An example:

Now Shogun doesn't have some sort of super human reflexes where he is seeing everything coming and reacting to it as he sees it. On the contrary, he is simply cycling through his own Headmovement Patterns to avoid strikes without needing to predict them before hand.



What we have now is simplified into rock, paper, scissors.