Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

What we don’t agree on is if someone like Nik Lentz should have the ability to chain sways together like ****ing Shogun. Even if they are slower, that’s just a horrible look for the game. Lol.

The speed should be slower. The range of motion should be significantly less. And the ability to change directions should be significantly worse than the the elites.

That said, there's no reason not to give him (or anyone else) the ability that literally everybody on the planet has.

My mother's not a boxer or athletic but she can sway her upper body 360 degrees. It's just slow, clumsy and entirely useless in a fight. But she can do it.


Everyone should have the ability to move, just to varying degrees of usefulness.


Like I've said in previous posts, head movement is an exceptionally dangerous game of anticipation, manipulation, prediction, timing and distance management.

If implemented correctly, the stats & risk-reward are going to deter people from trying to play like Anderson Silva with fighters who aren't able to do that in real life.

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The speed should be slower. The range of motion should be significantly less. And the ability to change directions should be significantly worse than the the elites.



That said, there's no reason not to give him (or anyone else) the ability that literally everybody on the planet has.



My mother's not a boxer or athletic but she can sway her upper body 360 degrees. It's just slow, clumsy and entirely useless in a fight. But she can do it.





Everyone should have the ability to move, just to varying degrees of usefulness.





Like I've said in previous posts, head movement is an exceptionally dangerous game of anticipation, manipulation, prediction, timing and distance management.



If implemented correctly, the stats & risk-reward are going to deter people from trying to play like Anderson Silva with fighters who aren't able to do that in real life.

Your mother can throw a standing elbow. That doesn’t mean that every person in the game should be equipped with a standing elbow.


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[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Im actually on the side of full 360 only being available for the Cody/Silvas of the world.

Every fighter cannot pull it off because it takes amazing footwork to do so without losing balance.

Anyone against changing the head movement system would you be interested in something like this video?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTgrmLUJuU

The key difference is the ability to alway move slightly left or right to get your head off of the centerline.

The biggest difference is that you’re not fully committing to leaning and can chain your head movement much easier.

In game that should mean less active frames.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Your mother can throw a standing elbow. That doesn’t mean that every person in the game should be equipped with a standing elbow.

Only because there's no mom-level standing elbow animation.


I'm in favor of giving everyone everything. But again, with varying degrees of usefulness and finesse.

If you want to attempt a wheel-kick with Roy Nelson and barely see him lift his foot higher than his knee and potentially slip and KO himself on the floor because he can't do it, I don't think the game should stop you from being able to try.

The deterrent should be in the risk-reward of using said techniques with fighters who don't use them in real life, not by artificially denying players access to them.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

This sounds good in theory but my experience with the game didn't show this. I don't think this worked very cleanly and nearly as efficiently if we had more of a 360 control. I obviously can't test it out right now though.

It worked more efficiently than in FNC and UFC 2. The frames were tuned specifically for that. Do you really wanna claim that the slip counters weren't fast enough in the beta? They were freaking guaranteed. What more could you want?

Both.

The speed at which you move your right stick should be the speed at which you actually move your head. And the distance you move your stick from neutral to all the way out should be how far your fighter moves his head in that direction.

Capped by stats obviously. So no teleportation.

And you think that would vary considerably?

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

This thread is so frustrating to read through lol. Great contributions, Daisuk.

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[Malaach]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread







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[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

If you have to go full everytime, your timing becomes more transparent, you have less control, you can lose valuable recovery time to get back to centre or off onto another head slot.

But we don't have to return to center, do we?

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

But we don't have to return to center, do we?

When moving, yes.
When swaying from a fixed position, no.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

And you think that would vary considerably?

Yes. But the most significant difference shouldn't be in the initial sway (though there should be some difference) it should be in transitioning between sways and the range of motion.

Most people can lean back, duck, etc relatively quickly. Throw a baseball at anyone and ask them to sway/duck. They probably can. Throwing two or three in quick succession or asking them to lean as far as they can without losing their balance is where the difference between boxers and everyone else becomes obvious.


I didn't word it properly though. What I meant to say is that there should be a direct correlation between my right stick movement and ingame head movement in terms of speed.

If I tilt my stick backwards slowly, what should happen is this:

The game calculates how far my control stick has moved by contrasting the current positional value to both the neutral and most outer value in percentages. The fighter should lean that percentage of his maximum lean.

By doing this every frame it knows my direction and velocity. If the control stick speed is slower than the fighters maximum head movement speed then the game should just copy your stick movement speed.

In the case where you're pushing out your control stick from neutral all the way out in 1 frame, obviously your head shouldn't teleport, but your fighter should move his head as quickly and as far in that direction as its stats allow.

[Serengeti1]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Everybody uses small slips. EVERYBODY. It's extremely common that fighters exchange straight punches on the outside and try to dodge each others by moving their head off the center line.

360 movement should still be in the game for everyone imo. It should just be harder with some than others. ****, it should even be quite hard with Cody and Anderson. Slipping 3-4 punches in a row I mean. The thing everybody seems to be missing is that you can do that anyway now so I still have no idea what you guys are talking about. All you'd be doing is giving the player more control and making it flow better. It'd feel amazing to have that kind of control but still be able to move your feet. It would improve the game a lot instantly imo. Imagine how it'd feel to have that control. I dream about it

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Only because there's no mom-level standing elbow animation.


I'm in favor of giving everyone everything. But again, with varying degrees of usefulness and finesse.

If you want to attempt a wheel-kick with Roy Nelson and barely see him lift his foot higher than his knee and potentially slip and KO himself on the floor because he can't do it, I don't think the game should stop you from being able to try.

The deterrent should be in the risk-reward of using said techniques with fighters who don't use them in real life, not by artificially denying players access to them.

Putting aside the issue of whether the controls even would allow this, this is the issue I have:

Lets use the spinning back fist as an example. The SBF isnt a hard move to do. I could teach your mom to do it in less than 5 minutes. I'd argue that every MMA fighter is capable of doing at least an extremely poor version of it.

So back in 2016 when the UFC 2 trailers came out, one showed (I believe it was) Aldo doing a SBF. Now I dont believe Aldo has ever done one in a UFC fight. Some of the same people in here who are arguing for "360 movement for everyone!" were FLIPPING THE **** OUT on the old forums because Aldo had that move in his moveset.

They werent saying "I'd be ok with it if there was a ****tier version of the SBF". It wasnt because the move could be OP (In fact, when it was suggested that the move level could be low making the strike less powerful, they didnt care).They were making the same arguments that I am. That it was a bad look to have someone who doesnt throw SBFs have the ability to do so in the game.

Now this is Jose Aldo. One of the most athletic fighters of all time and people werent OK with him even having the ability to do basic spinning attacks because he hasnt attempted them in a fight.

With that said, I didnt completely agree but it was consistent. They wanted complete realism. So its wild to see some of the same people who bitch constantly about realism in movesets are ok with all fighters given 360 movement (which is arguably a move) and the ability to chain slower versions of Anderson like head movement.

On another note from a personal perspective, I'm a small steps kind of guy. I played the beta and didnt think the head movement was perfect. I'm not smart enough to know the reasons why from a technical/frame based perspective. It just didnt feel right. With that said, I didnt think UFC 2's felt right either. I was a huge fan of FNC's head movement though.

I also dont think FNC head movement is right for every fighter for the reason I listed above. So I'm willing to see if there are ways that the devs can tweak the current head movement instead of throwing it all out and trying to jam in 360 head movement at the last minute.

Last thing: If people want to give examples of why everyone should have 360 movement, can we stop using guys like Cody, Anderson and Shogun? Can yall come with some .gifs of mid level - lower level chaining sways together? That would go a long way in convincing others that everyone needs 360 movement.

[Nugget7211]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Last thing: If people want to give examples of why everyone should have 360 movement, can we stop using guys like Cody, Anderson and Shogun? Can yall come with some .gifs of mid level - lower level chaining sways together? That would go a long way in convincing others that everyone needs 360 movement.

I don't even mind if people want to use people with good head movement as examples, just why do you focus on the flashy ones? Aldo is probably the best defensive fighter in MMA history and uses small slips and constant pre-emptive head movement and I can't recall him being mentioned once. Not everyone should be able to do Anderson or Cody type ****, but everyone should (ideally) be able to do Aldo type ****, just way less consistently.

As I've said earlier in this thread, don't want it in 3, would be cool in a future game but isn't super high on the list of stuff that needs improvement.

[Serengeti1]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I wish I had the beta right now so I could do the Anderson-like head movement with Evan Dunham lol. YOU CAN DO IT ALREADY. IT JUST SUCKS AND YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH CONTROL. It's too arcadey.

This isn't just about chaining slips like that anyway. People are missing the point right now. That's just one aspect that would feel better with 360 head movement. Am I speaking a different language?



Here he pulls the first punch.... then leans to the side and dodges the second... then pulls the third. You can do this in UFC 3 with any fighter already. It's just extremely difficult. If 360 head movement is implemented correctly... It will feel more fluid/smoother/natural/realistic when pulling this off. It doesn't mean they can't balance it with stats still.

Why is this not being understood? What are we arguing about? You can already do it. The angles are just set.

[MalformedDC2009]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Why I personally don't want 360 head movement in UFC 3 (I'd like it in a future game, but I don't want it in this one) is because of the analogue punch reading, which is something I really, really doubt they'll change.

My concern would be that if they basically tacked full head movement control on at the end of development, there could be a "magic angle" that would avoid almost all strike animations (kinda how leaning back worked in 2 tbh). Because all the strike are animated to hit the head on the center line and don't track at all, like if someone stays ducking your fighter doesn't jab down at them or lower their hooks, they'll just keep winging strikes at where their head is "supposed" to be.

This could cause, for example, ducking down to the left or right, to avoid uppercuts and knees that go up the center line and straight and hooking punches, and perhaps even high kicks depending on the angle. I'm aware that this is a fairly apocalyptic scenario for the feature, but I'm just using it to illustrate a point.

To be 100% clear, full 360 degree head movement in a future game with the striking system built to account for it would be awesome, but I think shoving it into 3 a month before launch would be ****

The full system you just described should have been a part of EA UFC 3 already. You guys are way too f****** forgiving.

I think everything Sargentie is saying goes back to this post. 360 head movement implemented correctly, with the striking system built to track head movement and account for it.

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