Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

They react to the feint and strike the same based on their opponent movement. Keyword : React

You can anticpate follow up strikes and move accordingly but the initial movement is often times based on reaction. Right now we only have anticipation as an option, for the head movement to be at it’s best we’d need both.

I would prefer free range head movement but i’d be happy with just lower start up ,more angles and the ability to chain angles together like the Shogun gif

You can react in the game, too, mix anticipation with reaction. You usually react to the opponent coming at you, but anticipate the tracking of the attack he will use.

I don't know how the start-up speed was defined. But I'm guessing it was picked by the fastest that still looked OK, non-teleport-ey.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

90+ rated fighters have enough frames to slip a jab if the slip is input right after the jab.

So reactionary slips are possible if you can do it quickly.

The reality is most people can't react that fast, and some degree of anticipation is likely necessary.

But that's not far off from what you describe.

Sent from my Pixel using Operation Sports mobile app

Just to clarify are we supposed to react right after they press the button?(which would obviously come from anticipation) or are there subtle tells during the startup of the jab that would allow us to react? If it’s the second one then I’ll apologize right now.

I still would like the ability to chain head movement vs going back to the center but if Im wrong about the ability to react i’ll be happy.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

You can react in the game, too, mix anticipation with reaction. You usually react to the opponent coming at you, but anticipate the tracking of the attack he will use.

I don't know how the start-up speed was defined. But I'm guessing it was picked by the fastest that still looked OK, non-teleport-ey.

Im assuming this teleport stuff is because the game is only 30 FPS?

I’ve played MK,UMVC3, MVCI, and they have moves with less than 6 frames of start up and they dont “teleport” on the screen

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Just to clarify are we supposed to react right after they press the button?(which would obviously come from anticipation) or are there subtle tells during the startup of the jab that would allow us to react? If it’s the second one then I’ll apologize right now.

I still would like the ability to chain head movement vs going back to the center but if Im wrong about the ability to react i’ll be happy.

There are no explicit tells built into the animation, so it's up to the player to identify any if they exist.

I suspect you could react, but couldn't identify a straight vs a hook early enough.

And you can chain slips. Why do you think you can't?

Sent from my Pixel using Operation Sports mobile app

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Gotta consider the FlyWs, too. I think they're 4 frames. Faster than that would be 2 frames. That would look teleporty af.

Arcade games are usually very teleporty, specially the 2D ones (including the 2D ones with 3D graphics). But this is normally tolerated in the genre. Simulation games are different. The teleporty stuff would stand out as unrealistic.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

There are no explicit tells built into the animation, so it's up to the player to identify any if they exist.

I suspect you could react, but couldn't identify a straight vs a hook early enough.

And you can chain slips. Why do you think you can't?

Sent from my Pixel using Operation Sports mobile app

I mean like the Shogun gif

Be able to duck right, then left, then move back and come forward in succession fluidly.

I dont recall that being possible.

As far as reacting i’ll trust you and wait for the game to come out. But I will be back if I cant! Lol

Gotta consider the FlyWs, too. I think they're 4 frames. Faster than that would be 2 frames. That would look teleporty af.

Arcade games are usually very teleporty, specially the 2D ones (including the 2D ones with 3D graphics). But this is normally tolerated in the genre. Simulation games are different. The teleporty stuff would stand out as unrealistic.

I guess we have different definitions of teleportation.

Are you referring to how fast an animation plays out? Slick head movement Irl would probably be considered “telepory af”.


Btw here’s a good video about head movement for you. It’s quite different than what’s in the game

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTgrmLUJuU

[Reinfarcements]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

True 360 head-movement definitely sounds better in theory and on paper. If done properly, it would be more realistic than current system. Here's the thing though:

EA UFC 3's head-movement system feels the best so far in terms of gameplay.

The reason I say this is because in EA UFC 2, the head-movement felt way to easy to use. I'm not some crazy good MLG player at the game, but by the end of UFC 2's life cycle I was able to do some super-natural dodging of strikes on the feet. I understand there are counters to it in UFC 2, like body shots and grappling, but here is the thing: The ability to stand there and dodge strike after strike after strike, CONSISTENTLY without getting hit once, is extremely unrealistic for a VAST majority of fighters. Silva and Tyson are freaks of nature with their head-movement, most fighters wouldn't dare try that kinda thing.

In EA UFC 3, I at the very least feel like I have to feel out the opponent to start moving my head at an impressive caliber. I can't just touch gloves and start out swinging my head around like a mad-man with success. Which is definitely possible in EA UFC 2. It was simply too easy in UFC 2, there was no real strategy to it, if you just moved in weird angles at the right time you'd dodge a strike 95% of the time. So as it stands now, EA UFC 3 has the better feeling head-movement in any MMA game I've played. I certainly do not think head-movement "took a step back" if you look at how it actually affects realism of the gameplay.

HOWEVER, like I think most people are agreeing with here, in a future title, if a revamped and upgraded 360 degree head-movement system is added seamlessly into the stand-up, it would be awesome!

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Can I answer this?

The set distance for the current slips is irrelevant. It's not having the freedom to decide for myself how far I want to slip that's the problem.

Because moving a little means risking moving too little. In which case this happens.

There's no way you can lean at an angle that will dodge all punches, kicks, knees and elbows one can throw.

Yes.

- Are you sure it's irrelevant? Do you want the addition of shorter slips or longer ones?

- So it would be about pressig the stick always to like... 30%?

- How would diagonal leans work for you? Would they combine the evasion of ducking and side-leaning?


- Did you already get used to slips in EA UFC 3?

Again, it's irrelevant to my view. You can add both shorter and longer ones and that would be better. But the point is that there shouldn't be a set of predetermined sway distances.

There should be a maximum distance you can sway and depending on how far you tilt your right stick you should be able to freely move within those limits.

It's not a foreign concept. It's the same with footwork.

Neutral left stick means you're stationary. The more you tilt your stick in a certain direction, the faster you'll move in that direction with maximum movement speed being limited by fighter stats.

I want the same thing for head movement.




As for tilting the stick 30%, again, it's not that straight forward.

How far you need to sway depends on:
- The distance between you and your opponent
- How far your fighter can sway to begin with (stats dependent)
- Which direction you're moving your head
- How well you timed your head movement. Even if 30% was the magic number, it would be 30% from where your head was when they threw the strike. So going moving too early and then only going 30% equals:




As for combining swaying and leaning.. Are you not familiar with how hit boxes work? You're treating ducks, leans and sways as separate moves but they're essentially doing the same thing. Moving your head out of the way of your opponents fist.

If their fist, knee, shin or elbow doesn't connect with your head, it shouldn't matter if you ducked, leaned back, left or right.

And yes. I read about it before I even played the beta. I could pretty much use it effectively in my first fight.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

So... you want the analog press to be about the speed with which you move your head in that direction, not how far you go?

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Again, it's irrelevant to my view. You can add both shorter and longer ones and that would be better. But the point is that there shouldn't be a set of predetermined sway distances.

There should be a maximum distance you can sway and depending on how far you tilt your right stick you should be able to freely move within those limits.

It's not a foreign concept. It's the same with footwork.

Neutral left stick means you're stationary. The more you tilt your stick in a certain direction, the faster you'll move in that direction with maximum movement speed being limited by fighter stats.

I want the same thing for head movement.




As for tilting the stick 30%, again, it's not that straight forward.

How far you need to sway depends on:
- The distance between you and your opponent
- How far your fighter can sway to begin with (stats dependent)
- Which direction you're moving your head
- How well you timed your head movement. Even if 30% was the magic number, it would be 30% from where your head was when they threw the strike. So going moving too early and then only going 30% equals:




As for combining swaying and leaning.. Are you not familiar with how hit boxes work? You're treating ducks, leans and sways as separate moves but they're essentially doing the same thing. Moving your head out of the way of your opponents fist.

If their fist, knee, shin or elbow doesn't connect with your head, it shouldn't matter if you ducked, leaned back, left or right.

And yes. I read about it before I even played the beta. I could pretty much use it effectively in my first fight.

The question though, is what advantage do you gain by only moving your head 30%? Why note move it all the way every time?

Presumably a faster counter right?

That's how UFC 3 works. You can interrupt the sway at any point with a counter strike. Benefit being an earlier intercept the catch vulnerability or intercept a strike, risk being that you cut off the head movement early and risk eating a strike if you mis-time it.

So other than the feeling of one to one, I don't know what the analogue system actually gives you that we don't already have.

I'm not asking to be a dick, I just want to understand.

[Serengeti1]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

This thread is making me sad...

So much resistance to something that would better the game and bring more realism and control. It would make the game more dynamic. The notion that it wouldn't change the game at all is just untrue. Please stop saying that. The denial is just irritating at this point. I and many others have explained what it'd add.

There's also many more than 5 people gunning for this lol. There's more than 5 in this single thread.

I just don't understand why there is so much resistance for something that is clearly a great idea.

The idea that it'd be unrealistic because fighters don't move their head as well as that is not an argument when there are ways of utilising head movement in UFC 3 that fighters do not do. In UFC 2 as well. So let's put that one to the side as nonsense pleaseeee.

This hasn't been a fair discussion so far. There's so many invalid and plain objectively wrong points on the opposing side. It's really frustrating man. If we're not going to do it... Let's not do it because it's difficult to implement (which is why I think there's quite a bit of resistance honestly).

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

This thread is making me sad...

So much resistance to something that would better the game and bring more realism and control. It would make the game more dynamic. The notion that it wouldn't change the game at all is just untrue. Please stop saying that. The denial is just irritating at this point. I and many others have explained what it'd add.

There's also many more than 5 people gunning for this lol. There's more than 5 in this single thread.

I just don't understand why there is so much resistance for something that is clearly a great idea.

The idea that it'd be unrealistic because fighters don't move their head as well as that is not an argument when there are ways of utilising head movement in UFC 3 that fighters do not do. In UFC 2 as well. So let's put that one to the side as nonsense pleaseeee.

This hasn't been a fair discussion so far. There's so many invalid and plain objectively wrong points on the opposing side. It's really frustrating man. If we're not going to do it... Let's not do it because it's difficult to implement (which is why I think there's quite a bit of resistance honestly).

The main reason is because to blindy replace ufc 3's head movement system with say UFC 2's head movement system, which is both 360 and analog, would destroy the benefits the new system has brought to the table.

So to move forward, we have to make sure that any improvements made don't do that.

So it's important to deconstruct the problem and go beyond the surface of what people are saying they want, to figure out what they actually want.

Then, once we understand that, we can devise a way to implement it.

[Serengeti1]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

That's how UFC 3 works. You can interrupt the sway at any point with a counter strike. Benefit being an earlier intercept the catch vulnerability or intercept a strike, risk being that you cut off the head movement early and risk eating a strike if you mis-time it.

This sounds good in theory but my experience with the game didn't show this. I don't think this worked very cleanly and nearly as efficiently if we had more of a 360 control. I obviously can't test it out right now though.

I mean I've heard you say before that it's all about giving the player the control... Why not have full control over head movement as well then? Efficiency in game aside for a second... It'd enhance the experience so much.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

This sounds good in theory but my experience with the game didn't show this. I don't think this worked very cleanly. I obviously can't test it out right now though.

I mean I've heard you say before that it's all about giving the player the control... Why not have full control over head movement as well then? Efficiency in game aside for a second... It'd enhance the experience so much.

If I just did it without purpose it would not enhance the game at all.

You'd be excited about the reveal trailer, and then complain that it didn't do what you wanted. Because it wouldn't.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I can't make a video for every forum argument as it takes too much time to get videos of unreleased games approved.

If someone still has the beta, post a video of pull counters with Conor.

One where you input the straight immediately after inputing the back sway, and another when you input the strike at the apex of the sway, and one where you input the strike half way back to center.

The difference should be pretty obvious.

I want to know why that's not enough.

not because I don't agree that it's not enough, because I need to know what about this is insufficient.