Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

Agreed. I'd like to see that aswell as the AI (on higher difficulties) cancel combos once it realises your out of range.

It'll often throw, for example, 3-4-3, as your retreating, now, the first one misses, if the second one misses there is no chance the third lands with the advancing strike tax,

So it'd be nice to see the AI start cancelling these strikes.

Basically if the initial 2 strikes of a 3-4 strike combo miss, it should cancel the 3rd.

It occasionally does this, but its pretty rare and possibly completely random.

I'd also like to see the AI be more aware of wether its in a 3 or 5 round fight.
Currently it doesn't seem to make any difference leading to 90% of AIs gassing by the third.

It makes 5 round fights feel somewhat repetitive. Proper 5 round wars/tactical decs are pretty damn rare for me unless I kinda carry the AI for the last 1.5 rounds atleast.

[aholbert32]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

Would it be safe to assume the AI will be adjusted to acknowledge the new stamina tax on whiffed strikes with the next patch?

I'm loving the change. But its very very easy to gas the AI I'm finding, especially if your feinting often as they'll bite with multiple strike combos you can easily avoid

Or if your using a counterstriking heavy gameplan, ect.

The AI was pretty good at going 3 rounds before gassing prior to the tuner but I'm getting a lot of guys going to the full gassed state by round 2.

What is everyone else experiencing?

admittedly I've only played a handful of matchups so far, but given how drastic this stamina change is I'm interested if there will be any AI tweaks for it.

These were 5 round, acc clock, pro fights mainly at BW with the higher teir guys (anyone around Moraes stat level as I was using him)

This is something I'll bring up to Skynet but we may just have to adjust our stamina sliders to counteract the change.

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

This is something I'll bring up to Skynet but we may just have to adjust our stamina sliders to counteract the change.

Cool, thankyou.

Any chance you could recommend he perhaps have another look at the universal AI backfist rates?

I dunno about everyone else but either they're secretly OP or the AI is WAY too good at timing them.

They seem to know how to counter almost everything with them.

Advancing jabs, roundhouse kicks, teeps off the opposite side to the spin, hooks, low kicks (this one is totally acceptable of course) ect ect.

It's not that a backfist doesn't work in these contexts occasionally IRL, its just EVERYONE who has them uses them as the go-to counter for these moves.

This results in guys who have, but rarely, used the backfist will use it like Paul Felder.

I'm talking Masvidal, Arlovski, Manuwa, guys like that. Aswell as the lighter guys who actually do utilise them semi often.

Pettis and MM oddly rarely use them. Despite having them, dunno if it's because they have the slower lead spin backfist or if its their unique AIs.

Now I admit I just got KO'd in under a minute by Arlovski spin fisting me on two seperate high kick attempts with the 2nd flash KOing me, so its a slightly personal matter haha :P

But I can't be alone in thinking the backfist counter rates are still waaay to high almost universally can I?

Mainly in reference to Pro AI, the Hard AI throws them naked and not as counters pretty often. But Pro/Legendary use them as counters to a LOT of strikes.

Jimi Manuwa is a good example of the issue. He uses SBF counters 24/7 on pro.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

I wonder if AI can be programmed not to shoot for takedowns against people who are better grapplers than them, or have already dominated them on the ground in the same fight. I was Assuncao vs Garbrandt on Pro, I outgrappled him (denials, transitions, a bit of damage as well) and then at a later point, not too long after, he shoots for a takedown. I'm pretty sure in real life Garbrandt would want nothing to do with Assuncao on the ground, especially if he was unsuccessful in that area already in the fight. I'm not saying it's the biggest issue ever but still. It would be even more glaring if I'm Khabib and Pettis starts shooting. I might even try that later.

[aholbert32]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

I wonder if AI can be programmed not to shoot for takedowns against people who are better grapplers than them, or have already dominated them on the ground in the same fight. I was Assuncao vs Garbrandt on Pro, I outgrappled him (denials, transitions, a bit of damage as well) and then at a later point, not too long after, he shoots for a takedown. I'm pretty sure in real life Garbrandt would want nothing to do with Assuncao on the ground, especially if he was unsuccessful in that area already in the fight. I'm not saying it's the biggest issue ever but still. It would be even more glaring if I'm Khabib and Pettis starts shooting. I might even try that later.

I dont believe it can and that is a bit of a hole in the AI. My dream AI is what I call the "GSP/Koscheck 2" AI. If you remember that fight, even though GSP is an accomplished grappler, he didnt shoot on Koscheck because he knew he had the greater advantage on his feet.

In UFC 3, the GSP AI has a certain setting for takedowns and if the oppurtunity presents itself, it will attempt them even if his opponent is a equal or better grappler and even if he is a much better striker than his opponent. I would love for the AI in future games to be able to assess its opponent and decide what path to take based on that.

You dont have to worry about this with Pettis and Khabib because Pettis' is programmed not to attempt alot of takedowns no matter who the opponent is.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

I dont believe it can and that is a bit of a hole in the AI. My dream AI is what I call the "GSP/Koscheck 2" AI. If you remember that fight, even though GSP is an accomplished grappler, he didnt shoot on Koscheck because he knew he had the greater advantage on his feet.

In UFC 3, the GSP AI has a certain setting for takedowns and if the oppurtunity presents itself, it will attempt them even if his opponent is a equal or better grappler and even if he is a much better striker than his opponent. I would love for the AI in future games to be able to assess its opponent and decide what path to take based on that.

You dont have to worry about this with Pettis and Khabib because Pettis' is programmed not to attempt alot of takedowns no matter who the opponent is.

Well Pettis was just an example, since he's good on the ground, just not Khabib good. And yeah, Rockhold also was stuck with striking against Romero, even avoiding kicking out of respect for his ground game. I know he's not some takedown whiz though. As for the programming, can't it be done in a fairly binary way? Higher Ground OVR for me means no takedown for the opponent or something like that. Yeah, I know it's way too straightforward, but we're just having a discussion.

[aholbert32]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

Well Pettis was just an example, since he's good on the ground, just not Khabib good. And yeah, Rockhold also was stuck with striking against Romero, even avoiding kicking out of respect for his ground game. I know he's not some takedown whiz though. As for the programming, can't it be done in a fairly binary way? Higher Ground OVR for me means no takedown for the opponent or something like that. Yeah, I know it's way too straightforward, but we're just having a discussion.

Thats a Skynet question. The reason this sticks out so much in my head is because of UFC 2. When we were testing UFC2, it used to annoy the **** out of me that Anderson Silva's AI would occasionally shoot for a takedown even against guys like Chael Sonnen. I asked the devs at the time could that be prevented. Could the AI just see the OVR or even things like TDD and just say "Not gonna attempt a takedown". The answer back then was no.

That could be part of the reason for developing individual fighter AI templates so stuff like that doesnt happen. Now that works for people like Pettis who rarely if ever attempt takedowns. It doesnt work for the fighters like GSP who are well rounded and whose strategy is based on the matchup.

A guy like Khabib is going to attempt a takedown against everyone but a guy like GSP isnt and that is a hole in the AI that I hope gets fixed if there is a next game.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

Thats a Skynet question. The reason this sticks out so much in my head is because of UFC 2. When we were testing UFC2, it used to annoy the **** out of me that Anderson Silva's AI would occasionally shoot for a takedown even against guys like Chael Sonnen. I asked the devs at the time could that be prevented. Could the AI just see the OVR or even things like TDD and just say "Not gonna attempt a takedown". The answer back then was no.

That could be part of the reason for developing individual fighter AI templates so stuff like that doesnt happen. Now that works for people like Pettis who rarely if ever attempt takedowns. It doesnt work for the fighters like GSP who are well rounded and whose strategy is based on the matchup.

A guy like Khabib is going to attempt a takedown against everyone but a guy like GSP isnt and that is a hole in the AI that I hope gets fixed if there is a next game.

There are other factors too, I actually wouldn't be too surprised if a guy like Kevin Lee shoots on Khabib in a potential fight, regardless of whether that ends up being a smart move or not, the factor being self-confidence. Edit: or what you said, fight IQ.

[aholbert32]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

There are other factors too, I actually wouldn't be too surprised if a guy like Kevin Lee shoots on Khabib in a potential fight, regardless of whether that ends up being a smart move or not, the factor being self-confidence. Edit: or what you said, fight IQ.

I would love to see that added but there are potential issues. For example, lets take Pettis.

Lets say Pettis (AI) is fighting Barboza. Now Pettis is good BJJ fighter. He knows he can finish Barboza on the ground. So in round 3, Pettis realizes that Barboza is a bit gassed and because he is better on the ground, he shoots for a takedown.

Now you and I may look at that and say "Makes sense. Pettis wanted the sub". Others may see that and say "Why the **** is Pettis shooting for a takedown? The AI sucks".

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

I would love to see that added but there are potential issues. For example, lets take Pettis.

Lets say Pettis (AI) is fighting Barboza. Now Pettis is good BJJ fighter. He knows he can finish Barboza on the ground. So in round 3, Pettis realizes that Barboza is a bit gassed and because he is better on the ground, he shoots for a takedown.

Now you and I may look at that and say "Makes sense. Pettis wanted the sub". Others may see that and say "Why the **** is Pettis shooting for a takedown? The AI sucks".

Does Pettis never shoot for takedowns? What fight did he shoot in?

[aholbert32]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

Does Pettis never shoot for takedowns? What fight did he shoot in?

What you just identified is another issue....perception vs reality?

Anthony Pettis has shot for a takedown in every fight except the Lauzon, Cerrone, Chiesa and B. Henderson 2 fights. He shot for alot of them in the WEC too. Now alot of the TDs come from defensive wrestling though. Thats the reality.

Now if you asked the average fan if Pettis goes for TDs, they would probably say no.

So what do you think the devs should do? Should they program Pettis to shoot for takedowns like in real life (risking that people will complain because they perceive that Pettis doesnt shoot) or should they go with the perception and make it so he rarely or never shoots?

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

What you just identified is another issue....perception vs reality?

Anthony Pettis has shot for a takedown in every fight except the Lauzon, Cerrone, Chiesa and B. Henderson 2 fights. He shot for alot of them in the WEC too. Now alot of the TDs come from defensive wrestling though. Thats the reality.

Now if you asked the average fan if Pettis goes for TDs, they would probably say no.

So what do you think the devs should do? Should they program Pettis to shoot for takedowns like in real life (risking that people will complain because they perceive that Pettis doesnt shoot) or should they go with the perception and make it so he rarely or never shoots?

Well... obviously make him shoot as much as he does in real life. It should definitely be more than Garbrandt. I remember plenty of Pettis on the ground, I just don't remember how it got there If the player has issues with it, he can always look it up, have a discussion or watch a fight. On another note, I'm playing on Legendary right now. You said that's the crazy one where it should be unrealistic and godlike. I had a number of fun fights where it was nothing like that, I quite enjoyed it, it was competitive but I wouldn't say unfair... until Jones vs AI Anderson Silva happened, what the actual hell - took me 5-6 attempts to finally beat him. He's in a difficulty of his own.

[aholbert32]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

Well... obviously make him shoot as much as he does in real life. It should definitely be more than Garbrandt. I remember plenty of Pettis on the ground, I just don't remember how it got there If the player has issues with it, he can always look it up, have a discussion or watch a fight. On another note, I'm playing on Legendary right now. You said that's the crazy one where it should be unrealistic and godlike. I had a number of fun fights where it was nothing like that, I quite enjoyed it, it was competitive but I wouldn't say unfair... until Jones vs AI Anderson Silva happened, what the actual hell - took me 5-6 attempts to finally beat him. He's in a difficulty of his own.

Here is the problem...perception matters. Most people will think something is wrong with the Pettis AI if he shoots alot of takedowns. For the same reason as you posted, they remember him on the ground alot but not always how he got there. They assume he gets takedown alot (which he does) but they dont know that he attempts them occasionally too.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

Here is the problem...perception matters. Most people will think something is wrong with the Pettis AI if he shoots alot of takedowns. For the same reason as you posted, they remember him on the ground alot but not always how he got there. They assume he gets takedown alot (which he does) but they dont know that he attempts them occasionally too.

Well I still don't see the great issue. Most people will have a complaint they either won't take anywhere, or they will and there's a ton of evidence to back EA's decision to make him shoot for a takedown occasionally. If he shoots in real life, that's objective truth, don't really see the problem.

[aholbert32]

Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

Well I still don't see the great issue. Most people will have a complaint they either won't take anywhere, or they will and there's a ton of evidence to back EA's decision to make him shoot for a takedown occasionally. If he shoots in real life, that's objective truth, don't really see the problem.

The problem is that there isnt a venue to correct the perception. Not everyone goes to sites like OS. In fact most dont.

So lets say we didnt have this convo. You play UFC 4 and you see Pettis shooting for a takedown in every fight (he lands less than 1 per fight on average). Now your perception before this convo was that Pettis is mostly a kickboxer. So you see that he is attempting takedowns and you come to OS to make the devs aware. Skynet says "He actually averages over 1 attempt a fight". You realize he's right and you are fine with it.

Now lets say you dont go to OS.

The average player doesnt come here. So they will just think that the AI is screwy because of their perception of Pettis.

Same goes for guys like Rampage. He's averaged 1.5 takedowns per fight but people see him as a standup brawler so if he is regularly attempting takedowns, some will think something is wrong with the AI.

Its a balance and you have to be careful with it because of perception.