The strongest punishment to side sway spam

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

1) How many frames (how early) after starting Sway the opponent can start his Strike?

2) Does Sway strike has faster startup duration than from standing neutral?

Depends on the fighters in question and their respective stamina, but the slip strike has a small frame advantage over the regular strike at full stamina. Something like 4 frames. Prior to this patch is was a lot more.

Right now you can strike 2 frames after sway start up.

What I really wanted to do was make the startup frames of the sway strike a function of how early you throw it after sway start up, but I didn't have the time to do that work.

3) In many fighting games we have 2 types of counter strike:
Major counter - landed on opponent's strike startup (yr 1 example)

minor counter - landed on opponent;s strike recovery phase (yr 2nd example)

Is Major counter dmg/stun more than minor counter or no difference?

based on yr answers i will try to share how one of the best fighting games HOW TO SOLVE SPAM evasive actions like Sway/Steps...

Major has a higher vulnerability spike than minor, but it's only higher in a window about half way through the startup frames.

And vulnerability damage scales quite a bit with stamina loss.

[bmlimo]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Stationary sway its almost impossible to punish the way it is now...

[Solid_Altair]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

I recommend yall watch some ESFL, too.

The big problem before was that the lean strikes were so fast (particularly at slower classes) that they worked well both as a defensive counter as as interception. And this was made worse by the bug (which the patch also squashed) that made sustained leans immune to hitstun in some weird ways.

These things are now fixed, so... with timing and using some option selects here and there (leg kicks, knees...) the leaned strikes are fine, imo. If your opponent is spamming them, it's probably because you're not trying to counter it with enough variety and intensity.

[Serengeti1]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

I recommend yall watch some ESFL, too.

The big problem before was that the lean strikes were so fast (particularly at slower classes) that they worked well both as a defensive counter as as interception. And this was made worse by the bug (which the patch also squashed) that made sustained leans immune to hitstun in some weird ways.

These things are now fixed, so... with timing and using some option selects here and there (leg kicks, knees...) the leaned strikes are fine, imo. If your opponent is spamming them, it's probably because you're not trying to counter it with enough variety and intensity.

Not true. Read this - https://forums.operationsports.com/f...g-more-24.html

You'd be better off reading a few pages up to and after that for context but my post on that page is enough to dispel this by itself.

[SUGATA]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Depends on the fighters in question and their respective stamina, but the slip strike has a small frame advantage over the regular strike at full stamina. Something like 4 frames. Prior to this patch is was a lot more.

Right now you can strike 2 frames after sway start up.

What I really wanted to do was make the startup frames of the sway strike a function of how early you throw it after sway start up, but I didn't have the time to do that work.




Major has a higher vulnerability spike than minor, but it's only higher in a window about half way through the startup frames.

And vulnerability damage scales quite a bit with stamina loss.

> My solution HOW TO SOLVE SWAY SPAM:

We need to implement 2 types of Sway:
1P - defender
2P - attacker

1. Successful Sway - when 2P strike Hit phase landed at Sway evasive window.
It makes Sway successful = no delay for starting Sway strike and Sway strike is a bit faster. [sygnal - some sort of "swoosh"sound or special animation]

2. Failed (in wrong direction) or Mistimed Sway (in wrong time = Sway spam).
It makes Sway failed = slower speed animation with large delay for starting Sway strike and Sway strike is NOT faster (or even slower) [sygnal - a bit other slower animation]

RESULTS: It can be easily done via patch by just changing numbers
+ it will solve mindless Sway spam
+ it will force players to aim their Sways with precise timing to evoid become failed Sway (so opening).
+ it will increase Succeful Sway (=Skill) reward.

IF you will accept this idea - we can begin to discuss concrete numbers (frames) for all phases and siatuations to keep Balance.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

> My solution HOW TO SOLVE SWAY SPAM:

We need to implement 2 types of Sway:
1P - defender
2P - attacker

1. Successful Sway - when 2P strike Hit phase landed at Sway evasive window.
It makes Sway successful = no delay for starting Sway strike and Sway strike is a bit faster.

2. Failed (in wrong direction) or Mistimed Sway (in wrong time = Sway spam).
It makes Sway failed = slower speed animation with large delay for starting Sway strike and Sway strike is NOT faster (or even slower)

RESULTS: It can be easily done via patch by just changing numbers
+ it will solve mindless Sway spam
+ it will force players to aim their Sways with precise timing to evoid become failed Sway (so opening).
+ it will increase Succeful Sway (=Skill) reward.

IF you will accept this idea - we can begin to discuss concrete numbers (frames) for all phases and siatuations to keep Balance.

That's a pretty good idea actually. Only thing it doesn't address is the problem of people fishing for a sway. Where they don't commit to the strike until they've confirmed the evasion.

But as I tried to demonstrate I believe that can already be punished to some degree.

[bmlimo]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

> My solution HOW TO SOLVE SWAY SPAM:

We need to implement 2 types of Sway:
1P - defender
2P - attacker

1. Successful Sway - when 2P strike Hit phase landed at Sway evasive window.
It makes Sway successful = no delay for starting Sway strike and Sway strike is a bit faster.

2. Failed (in wrong direction) or Mistimed Sway (in wrong time = Sway spam).
It makes Sway failed = slower speed animation with large delay for starting Sway strike and Sway strike is NOT faster (or even slower)

RESULTS: It can be easily done via patch by just changing numbers
+ it will solve mindless Sway spam
+ it will force players to aim their Sways with precise timing to evoid become failed Sway (so opening).
+ it will increase Succeful Sway (=Skill) reward.

IF you will accept this idea - we can begin to discuss concrete numbers (frames) for all phases and siatuations to keep Balance.

I think other fix should be... if u for example use a stationary sway in the wrong timming(some strikes dont register in this kind of sway) ur opponent strikes should follow your head, any kind of strikes

[Phillyboi207]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

That's a pretty good idea actually. Only thing it doesn't address is the problem of people fishing for a sway. Where they don't commit to the strike until they've confirmed the evasion.

But as I tried to demonstrate I believe that can already be punished to some degree.

Make this man a gamechanger

And give small stamina tax for people chaining sways

[Serengeti1]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

That's a pretty good idea actually. Only thing it doesn't address is the problem of people fishing for a sway. Where they don't commit to the strike until they've confirmed the evasion.

But as I tried to demonstrate I believe that can already be punished to some degree.

Have you tried play testing these 'solutions' (not tryna sound snarky) in an online ranked match? I think you'll find they're harder to pull off than you think. Especially with the slight input delay. Like you're saying we have to hit the guy at a highly specific moment in animation.... In the heat of a competitive battle against a good player that's just asking too much. Risk/reward is off. The reward is much higher than the risk for them.

I'll post this video again in here... I'm smashing his head around with hooks as he sways side to side in this video multiple times in the pocket but no vulnerability trigger? He shouldn't be able to get away with that. If he lands a sway counter on me I'm likely getting rocked though. It's just silly. If those sequences happen irl he's instantly KO'd. I'm not asking for that but the vulnerability needs to be upped or more consistent or something. It certainly needs balance in some way right now anyway.

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[SUGATA]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

That's a pretty good idea actually. Only thing it doesn't address is the problem of people fishing for a sway. Where they don't commit to the strike until they've confirmed the evasion.

But as I tried to demonstrate I believe that can already be punished to some degree.

Yes, EVERY move must to have a COUNTER move (rock-paper-scissors).

How to evolve this idea:

1) How to counter Swaying - make a Pause/Delay in yr series > forces opponent to sway into Failed Sway

2) How to counter this Counter Swaying - allow to CANCEL SWAY (by R2) and returning to Neutral.
BUT ONLY after some irrevocable window (for ex 8 frames) - this window is for punishment by quick strikes IF i was anticipating his Sway cancel.
BUT he can anticipate this my quick strike and start his more powerful strike immediately after Sway cancel to crush mine b/c of stopping power = 3rd level Yomi.

This is all about YOMI - mindgame and trap-in-trap anticipation/plan.
Pay attention i am talking about the PLAN, in advance created plan strategy , based on opponent's scripts / templates and tactics, NOT only (not the most on) strike visual checking...

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Yes, EVERY move must to have a COUNTER move.

How to evolve this idea:

1) How to counter Swaying - make a Pause/Delay in yr series > forces opponent to sway into Failed Sway

2) How to counter this Counter Swaying - allow to CANCEL SWAY (by R2) and returning to Neutral.
BUT ONLY after some irrevocable window (for ex 8 frames) - this window is for punishment by quick strikes IF i was anticipating his Sway.
BUT he can anticipate this my quick strike and start his more powerful strike immediately after Sway cancel to crush mine b/c of stopping power = 3rd level Yomi.

This is all about YOMI - mindgame and trap-in-trap anticipation/plan.

Yes, I had the same sway cancel idea as well. I really like that concept.

[SUGATA]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Yes, I had the same sway cancel idea as well. I really like that concept.

Hallelujah =)

[Thetruth9012]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Yes, I had the same sway cancel idea as well. I really like that concept.

This all sounds like some minigame in mma game to me....

That would mean we would still see them as a 1st option on offense but with fakes...

I dont see how this changes inside fighting, circling out of danger or helping outside fighters at all.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

This all sounds like some minigame in mma game to me....

That would mean we would still see them as a 1st option on offense but with fakes...

I dont see how this changes inside fighting, circling out of danger or helping outside fighters at all.

Sway cancels would be godly and would placate the need for mini sways. It would open up everything else because we could cancen into lunges other sways, strikes, TDs everything.

It’s probably the one thing I miss most about EA UFC 2 head movement.

Edit: also allow weight class/ head movement to dictate how soon they can be canceled

[1stChrisso]

Re: The strongest punishment to side sway spam

Yes, I had the same sway cancel idea as well. I really like that concept.

Dooooooooo iiittttttttt. [emoji119] [emoji119] [emoji119]