EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

The underlying logic of UFC 3’s grappling system is without question much better than UD3. The simple fact that two people can try to transition different ways at the same time makes UFC 3 superior to UD3. UFC 3 grappling is by no means perfect, in fact, I wouldn’t even call it great, it has a long way to go before it’s actually fun to grapple, but it’s still much better than UD3 in terms of realism and logic. The only thing better about UD3 was the ground and pound, a few extra positions, and the rocks on the ground. If UFC 3 had those things, it would be better than UD3 in every possible way.

That's actually the worst part about it. Irl how many times do you hear to them talk about the bottom fighter needing to be patient and calm? All the time! What you just described is a race. You frantically race each other to see who gets there move off first. If you like it, fine, but it does not feel nearly as realistic as how UD3 worked.

You may not have liked holding the sticks down to literally hold position but that was a lot more sim than this. You hold position and you have to either transition or strike carefully and THEN you have to react to maintain position. That makes more sense than ALWAYS having to react to maintain position AND guessing what direction you have to maintain your position every single time the opponent makes a move.

EA UFC is far more video game/mini game logic than realism.



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[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

It's possible your reading the GA meter @$$ backwards, because what you wrote here is completely untrue.

It's exactly what happens. I don't have the GA meter up, I'm going off how fast their td animation is and how fast I have to react to avoid the td. When I kick someone and even when rocked, they suddenly dash in like a bat outta hell and get the takedown and I have to react immediately to avoid the takedown. Again, I'm telling you all this from a purely defensive side. A lot of players spam this and intentionally wait until after the kick lands and shoots in until I realize their pattern. They gain an advantage AFTER the kick animation which makes little sense.

Swear to god lol, it's not a pre-denial, but it's definitely the quickest I have to react to a takedown, and it makes no sense. Whether it connects or gets blocked, they can swoop in extremely fast for a take down after the contact.

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[dfab14]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

At first I might of said UD3 but after playing with this system for a few years now I really enjoy UFC 2 and 3 grappling. The only thing that I feel was better in UD3 was the clinch but I have faith this series will get there. It's the contextual and momentum transitions that make me enjoy EA UFC more.

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[LoveThisLife]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I train No Gi Submission Grappling(Combat Sambo, & CACC with some BJJ) twice a week, and been goin mostly on, with a few months off here and there for about 2 years now. I'm a pretty obsessive person in general but am crazy obsessed with grappling irl, and just how endlessly deep and technical it is. Despite my coach having a backround in Sambo and CACC, I've taken a strong attraction to sport Jiu Jitsu, just for all the wild techniques you can do when you're not worried about real self defense.

Anyways, I absolutely hate grappling in UFC 3. It feels nothing like grappling irl. It's slow. Clunky. Weird, goofy looking "fakes" that are so far from anything seen in reality. Unengaging submission system.. Horrendous UI, with goofy loading bars. Bad feeling controls.. "Grapple Advantage" makes literally no sense at all.. I get that there are a few positions or scenerios where I see where theyre coming from, but a lot of the time it's a purely video gamey mechanic. I don't know. But grappling in this game is just not fun at all.

And this is coming from a guy that watches grappling technique videos all week long, and can't wait for my Wed/Sun classes. Id roll all day untill I dropped irl if I could. It's so friggin' addicting, and fun. I think about it non stop. But even with that deep obsession, and love for grappling, I just can not for the life of me get into it in this game.

Nothing about it feels fun, or rewarding for me.

Most of the time it devolves into a waiting game trying to get the denial, or turns into a weird fake war to get something through. It just almost never feels engaging and fun at all to me.

I pretty much avoid the ground in this game. Which is sad, because I'm a diehard grappling head.


*edit* Momentum transitions are legit though. By far the best idea/mechanic in the grappling systems we have here.

Very well written.

One of the most frustrating techniques used in UFC 3 are the "fakes". One of the worst examples is when you are postured up in your opponents guard and the person on their back fakes the head grab at an insane speed and then transitions as they wish (view Papadoc, PreUnited on their backs).

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

It's exactly what happens. I don't have the GA meter up, I'm going off how fast their td animation is and how fast I have to react to avoid the td. When I kick someone and even when rocked, they suddenly dash in like a bat outta hell and get the takedown and I have to react immediately to avoid the takedown. Again, I'm telling you all this from a purely defensive side. A lot of players spam this and intentionally wait until after the kick lands and shoots in until I realize their pattern. They gain an advantage AFTER the kick animation which makes little sense.

Swear to god lol, it's not a pre-denial, but it's definitely the quickest I have to react to a takedown, and it makes no sense. Whether it connects or gets blocked, they can swoop in extremely fast for a take down after the contact.

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OK, so instead of GA being backwards, you're now claiming that the transition speeds and denial windows don't match GA in a specific scenario? That's a different claim altogether, but OK.

So let's analyze those scenarios and see what concrete numbers come out of it.

Here's a screen grab that shows the denial window when Conor attempts a naked double leg on GSP. You'll see a denial window of 46.09



And here's what the denial window looks like when Conor shoots a double while GSP is mid kick. You'll see the denial window is smaller at 33.45 frames.

Next, here's the denial window when Conor shoots a double after having successfully landed a head kick. You'll see a denial window of 41.10. Faster than the naked shot, but a little slower than when catching GSP mid kick.



And finally, here the denial window when Conor shoots a double after having a GSP head kick land clean. Here you see the biggest denial window of all at 60.13 frames.



So it would appear your second claim is also false.

Now I don't doubt that you've experienced a situation where you couldn't deny a takedown and it frustrated you. But to claim the GA system is @$$ backwards is disingenuous at best and puts the rest of your arguments about the merits of the UFC 3 grappling and takedown systems in a somewhat suspect light.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

OK, so instead of GA being backwards, you're now claiming that the transition speeds and denial windows don't match GA in a specific scenario? That's a different claim altogether, but OK.

So let's analyze those scenarios and see what concrete numbers come out of it.

Here's a screen grab that shows the denial window when Conor attempts a naked double leg on GSP. You'll see a denial window of 46.09



And here's what the denial window looks like when Conor shoots a double while GSP is mid kick. You'll see the denial window is smaller at 33.45 frames.

Next, here's the denial window when Conor shoots a double after having successfully landed a head kick. You'll see a denial window of 41.10. Faster than the naked shot, but a little slower than when catching GSP mid kick.



And finally, here the denial window when Conor shoots a double after having a GSP head kick land clean. Here you see the biggest denial window of all at 60.13 frames.



So it would appear your second claim is also false.

Now I don't doubt that you've experienced a situation where you couldn't deny a takedown and it frustrated you. But to claim the GA system is @$$ backwards is disingenuous at best and puts the rest of your arguments about the merits of the UFC 3 grappling and takedown systems in a somewhat suspect light.

Okay, here's an example of what I'm talking about. Wish I coulda found one that shows the td a bit later than the strike, but I'm just trying to shuffle thru my archives. It happened to be on a punch instead of a kick and it can happen with a more basic td than this clip shows. Maybe later I'll look for another clip.

https://youtu.be/UxZlmariTO0

Just look at how fast he can still pull that off after being rocked. So is it just an animation issue then? When does the GA begin and end if it doesn't last as long as normal? But it happens on less powerful tds and not as close to the strike animation connecting like in this clip. But if you don't immediately go for the denial after you hit them, you're down. Unfortunately you may not see the GA, but you can see that a rocked opponent shouldn't be able to at least shoot in that fast.

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[Phillyboi207]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Okay, here's an example of what I'm talking about. Wish I coulda found one that shows the td a bit later than the strike, but I'm just trying to shuffle thru my archives. It happened to be on a punch instead of a kick and it can happen with a more basic td than this clip shows. Maybe later I'll look for another clip.

https://youtu.be/UxZlmariTO0

Just look at how fast he can still pull that off after being rocked. So is it just an animation issue then? When does the GA begin and end if it doesn't last as long as normal? But it happens on less powerful tds and not as close to the strike animation connecting like in this clip. But if you don't immediately go for the denial after you hit them, you're down. Unfortunately you may not see the GA, but you can see that a rocked opponent shouldn't be able to at least shoot in that fast.

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Im not sure what your complaint is

You rocked him as he shot in. We’ve seen fighters get rocked and still finish TDs

If that was a well timed knee I could see your point.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

He was in a rocked state, how does it matter if it was a knee instead? A rock is a rock. Secondly, I said this is what happens even in later frames, at least until the point both fighters reset to regular or wobbled standinh position. What's the point in a rocked state if you can react just as fast as normal?

Forget my original argument for a minute, because you said THAT makes sense to you? Really? Really?! Lol, hold up. So you believe someone goes into that wobbled state while going for a td should be able to pull off that kind of td without it actually ending up in a kd? How? He's rocked/wobbled, he can't throw a punch normally be he can drive in for the perfect td? C'mon no simultaneous rock and tda or not, the system should kick in a falling animation once the rock is registered. He's getting punched flush by a straight while moving his head DIRECTLY into a forward moving fist dude...again, c'mon lol.

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[Phillyboi207]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

He was in a rocked state, how does it matter if it was a knee instead? A rock is a rock. Secondly, I said this is what happens even in later frames, at least until the point both fighters reset to regular or wobbled standinh position. What's the point in a rocked state if you can react just as fast as normal?

Forget my original argument for a minute, because you said THAT makes sense to you? Really? Really?! Lol, hold up. So you believe someone goes into that wobbled state while going for a td should be able to pull off that kind of td without it actually ending up in a kd? How? He's rocked/wobbled, he can't throw a punch normally be he can drive in for the perfect td? C'mon no simultaneous rock and tda or not, the system should kick in a falling animation once the rock is registered. He's getting punched flush by a straight while moving his head DIRECTLY into a forward moving fist dude...again, c'mon lol.

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If your complaint is that we dont have sloppy TD animations when rocked I agree but I dont think it’s a big deal.

We’ve seen fighters get TDs while being rocked and also while wobbling.

Kevin Lee vs Barbosa is one of the most recent examples I can think of.

Also remember that there are different types of rocks. A flush knee would cause a more severe one and possible drop. That straight was likely a minor rock.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

If your complaint is that we dont have sloppy TD animations when rocked I agree but I dont think it’s a big deal.

We’ve seen fighters get TDs while being rocked and also while wobbling.

Kevin Lee vs Barbosa is one of the most recent examples I can think of.

Also remember that there are different types of rocks. A flush knee would cause a more severe one and possible drop. That straight was likely a minor rock.

Barbosa was also tired and Lee danced around on wobbly legs for a good few seconds before he went for to take him down.

In no way, should the takedown in this case be just as fast & effective during a rocked state like this. I don't recall things like this in UFC 2, various takedown scenarios made more sense then, rocks effected them better, plus we didn't have all these simultaneous moments in EA UFC 2 that cause some of these weird moments.

Again, this player basically ran his face into a fist, both at full speed in this rock lol. This shouldn't happen.

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[raypace1]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Barbosa was also tired and Lee danced around on wobbly legs for a good few seconds before he went for to take him down.

In no way, should the takedown in this case be just as fast & effective during a rocked state like this. I don't recall things like this in UFC 2, various takedown scenarios made more sense then, rocks effected them better, plus we didn't have all these simultaneous moments in EA UFC 2 that cause some of these weird moments.

Again, this player basically ran his face into a fist, both at full speed in this rock lol. This shouldn't happen.

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Real life is not as finite as the video game world.. in real life people do not follow a spefic pattern or set animation to things... a rock does not always stun someone or hinder their ability to move or think or react...


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[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Real life is not as finite as the video game world.. in real life people do not follow a spefic pattern or set animation to things... a rock does not always stun someone or hinder their ability to move or think or react...


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That makes as much sense as getting rocked and having the same speed & power in strikes. This is of course more linear than real life, but makes sound like you've never seen a game implement this correctly before when this wasn't an issue just in EA UFC 2!

Beyond that, this window of being able to perfectly perform a td when rocked at the same speed as normal is longer than this clip showed yet if he tried to throw a kick, it'd be fatigued. You say a rock does hinder the ability to move, then wtf is a rocked animation for!? That's exactly what a rocked state in a video game like this is built to do. Are you guys not differentiating a rock, from a hit stun, to simply eating a strike? A rocked state should in fact react as a ROCKED state if that is what registers.

What's so hard to understand about this? If the game registered that reaction as a stun, your comment would make sense. But he was rocked, a state in which you are wobbled/disoriented and if you take one more shot, you're done.

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[raypace1]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

That makes as much sense as getting rocked and having the same speed & power in strikes. This is of course more linear than real life, but makes sound like you've never seen a game implement this correctly before when this wasn't an issue just in EA UFC 2!

Beyond that, this window of being able to perfectly perform a td when rocked at the same speed as normal is longer than this clip showed yet if he tried to throw a kick, it'd be fatigued. You say a rock does hinder the ability to move, then wtf is a rocked animation for!? That's exactly what a rocked state in a video game like this is built to do. Are you guys not differentiating a rock, from a hit stun, to simply eating a strike? A rocked state should in fact react as a ROCKED state if that is what registers.

What's so hard to understand about this? If the game registered that reaction as a stun, your comment would make sense. But he was rocked, a state in which you are wobbled/disoriented and if you take one more shot, you're done.

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[emoji58] have you ever been “rocked”? Not stunned but rocked... its not some kind of magical ****ing time warp that slows things down... its not like you are suddenly underwater or some ****... being rocked has NOTHING to do with speed...


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[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

[emoji58] have you ever been “rocked”? Not stunned but rocked... its not some kind of magical ****ing time warp that slows things down... its not like you are suddenly underwater or some ****... being rocked has NOTHING to do with speed...


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You don't get it at all. If you can't even throw a punch at the same speed when in this state in the game, why can you perform a takedown this fast? This animation slows your striking animations way down, makes you wobble and your power is lowered. Yet you can perform a texbook takedown...do you understand the problem with that? This isn't about different states of being rocked, it's about the inconsistency of the animation from striking to grappling.

Btw, this was his 4th rock in this round as well (I think 2 were KDs)! Which is a whole other issue with EA UFC 3 compared to the previous as well.

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[Painless taken]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Do people not remember the widespread side control knee spam bug? EA UFC 3 isn’t perfect but I’m taking it over the cheesy crap in UD3