EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

[aholbert32]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Guys I know is Christmas time, everybody likes to say love words to each other... but let’s focus on the ground game(btw you guys discussing has more action than ea ufc 3 ground)

To be honest, I dont know if there is much left to discuss. This isnt the first time this thread has come up. The devs are WELL AWARE that many like UD3's system. They are also well aware that there are plenty of people (some who frequent this forum and some who dont) who would prefer that they take what is in UFC3 and build on it with more animations, more depth and things like stronger ground and pound.

Now I have no idea what the devs are going to do with grappling. I've heard some ideas but nothing solid. At this point, they've likely made up their mind about what they are going to do at a macro level when it comes to grappling. So having a macro discussion (UD3 or UFC3) is likely too late.

The discussion at this point should be micro. It also should be focused on what could be improved on if they use a UD3 system or a UFC 3 system. Those are the kind of discussions that are likely to be beneficial at this point. Not which system was better.

[aholbert32]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Or... we just don’t like a system that deny is the main weapon for attack and for defense... when should be a simple matter of stall... and strategy + gnp beeing the real key for the W

Its times like this when I wish the other GCs were more active here because I've seen similar posts like this and some of them have responded by questioning if the type of system you describe lowers the skill level. Many of the GCs (not me. I dont have a dog in this fight), considered the UD3 system low skill. I'm not here to debate whether it is or isnt. I'm just letting you know what the counter argument is.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

You and I disagree on a ton of stuff all the time...have either of us been banned?

Same goes for Retracted.....or WARMMA....or AeroZ....or any number of other posters who have been here forever.

We all seem to make our point, disagree and not get banned. Cant say the same for others though.

What cracks me up is he takes credit for the "outside fighting change." I'll say this. I was behind the scenes when these changes were made. You know who the two people who were most influential in getting those changes....you and Martialmind. I dont remember a single time anyone ever referenced an idea or post behind the scenes.

Never banned because I try to be constructive when arguing. I know I’m stubborn as mule but I try to atleast present real arguments instead of emotional flush like some people.

And holy **** I’m glad I made an impact. I don’t care if 1/1000 of my ideas get used it’s cool to know something was taken into consideration.

Or... we just don’t like a system that deny is the main weapon for attack and for defense... when should be a simple matter of stall... and strategy + gnp beeing the real key for the W

Go play someone like Good Grappler or Kenetic and tell me that the deny is their main weapon.

RetractedMonkey summed up the fact that the ground game is pretty limited in comparison to striking. That’s legit. It doesnt have as many positions as UD3? That’s true. Ground n pound animations suck? Very true

The ground can be A LOT better and can use a lot of stuff from UD3 but it doesnt help your argument when you make false claims like that. Strategy is very important for the current ground meta and it goes well beyond just denials.

[bmlimo]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Never banned because I try to be constructive when arguing. I know I’m stubborn as mule but I try to atleast present real arguments instead of emotional flush like some people.

And holy **** I’m glad I made an impact. I don’t care if 1/1000 of my ideas get used it’s cool to know something was taken into consideration.



Go play someone like Good Grappler or Kenetic and tell me that the deny is their main weapon.

RetractedMonkey summed up the fact that the ground game is pretty limited in comparison to striking. That’s legit. It doesnt have as many positions as UD3? That’s true. Ground n pound animations suck? Very true

The ground can be A LOT better and can use a lot of stuff from UD3 but it doesnt help your argument when you make false claims like that. Strategy is very important for the current ground meta and it goes well beyond just denials.

Good grappler in other thread said that to be sussesful on the ground you gotta have a mindset based in a deny transition battle, this is the ground game we have right now... I’m sorry bud I respect your opnion, and tbh we all want the better game... but I just don’t think this current system is the ideal or simulate a good mma grapple...

[MacAttack33]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Good grappler in other thread said that to be sussesful on the ground you gotta have a mindset based in a deny transition battle, this is the ground game we have right now... I’m sorry bud I respect your opnion, and tbh we all want the better game... but I just don’t think this current system is the ideal or simulate a good mma grapple...

This is another twitch gamer vs hardcore, real life grappler who wants realism discussion. Twitchy gamers who live in their mother’s basement want the current denial based - seizure / faking system.

Real life grapplers loved the controls, feel and strategy of UD3. There was no need to have perfectly timed inputs just to hold a position, it was more strategic. Haz and others described it well earlier I believe, so I won’t attempt to do it here again. Take heed of what your community wants; most don’t like the current grappling and controls at all and numerous polls reflect that now.

[aholbert32]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

This is another twitch gamer vs hardcore, real life grappler who wants realism discussion. Twitchy gamers who live in their mother’s basement want the current denial based - seizure / faking system.

Real life grapplers loved the controls, feel and strategy of UD3. There was no need to have perfectly timed inputs just to hold a position, it was more strategic. Haz and others described it well earlier I believe, so I won’t attempt to do it here again. Take heed of what your community wants; most don’t like the current grappling and controls at all and numerous polls reflect that now.

See thats kind of ****ed up. There are 7 gamechangers. 4 of them dont want to go back to UD3s mechanics but would be open to some of the things that were in UD3 added to UFC 4. 2 would be ok with some version of UD3 mechanics but arent in love with the entire system. And then there is me who is good either way (I sucked at both systems so it doesnt matter to me).

None of those guys are "twitch gamers'. None of them living in their mother's basement. They just prefer the current system. They want improvements but they dont see the UD3 system as the end all and be all.

Also this game has been purchased by hundreds of thousands of people. In the polls on OS, I've seen maybe 100 people here have actually voted (way less than 1% of all purchasers). In those polls I've seen the numbers come in around 60-65% UD3. So 60-65 people assuming the same people arent voting in multiple polls.

Now if your position is that the less than 1% who vote on OS and multiple sites should ABSOLUTELY determine what goes in the game, thats an interesting position to have.

What's funny is one of the GC's (MMAGame) ran a poll on his Youtube channel about whether all ranked fights should have equalized stats (he STRONGLY believes it should). 1500 people voted. 73% voted Yes. Now 100% of this community would likely hate that idea. Should the devs listen to them? They are part of the community too, right?

Because thats kind of what you are saying. The people who voted in Game's poll have opinions just like you. He actually has more people (numbers wise) who want what he wants than OSers who want the game to revert to UD3 grappling.

I think Game's idea is bad and I've said so directly to him. This should never be a "poll says X so you should do it" argument. It should be a discussion about whether its the right thing, whether its feasible, what the pros and cons are. I dont give a **** about a poll. Present arguments that clearly justify this change and why your way is the best approach.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Good grappler in other thread said that to be sussesful on the ground you gotta have a mindset based in a deny transition battle, this is the ground game we have right now... I’m sorry bud I respect your opnion, and tbh we all want the better game... but I just don’t think this current system is the ideal or simulate a good mma grapple...

Which thread? The one about pre-denials he speaks about anticipation and not settling. He did mention Avaidata(sp?) having ridiculous reaction time tho.

I want the ability to hold in every position. I think the way mount works is perfect. I think that’s the main difference. I want the good parts of UD3 added to the good parts of UFC3. Y’all are asking to scrap UFC3 grappling entirely.

Momentum and contextual transitions are the future of grappling imo.

[WarMMA]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I think more ppl like UD3's system because it was fleshed out more and more easily accessible. Like they didn't have to do all these directional inputs to deny stuff. It was just straight to the point. EA's system is more skill based which some like me prefer, however, it may not have been the best approach as it regards to new comers and casuals. From a hardcore prespective, UD3's grappling system had a more grappling feel to it too cuz of how the posturing system worked and how the grapple blocking worked. Like it felt like you were actually trying to hold a guy down and hold position. That said if I had it my way, i'd kinda prefer a mix of the two systems. Take the best things from both systems and bring them together. But some ppl wanna just throw out EA's system and bring in UD3's...that would probably end up in disaster.

[Haz_____]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

- This isnt intended as a personal attack. I hate your writing style which is unclear most of the time. I hate that you refuse to use paragraphs. I hate that people will try to have honest debates with you and you will either lie or move the goalposts to justify your shaky points. I dont think you add much to the community at all. I feel the same way about that kid who likes all your posts too. Everytime you guys have been banned, the community has been fine. No one even noticed you were gone.

Slow down there brother.

I got so many messages on my psn after I was banned about how insane it was that I was banned. Then another run of msgs about when I'd be back. I've already sent them to Mill, which is how I was unbanned the first time around. I'll gladly post them here as well, although I wouldn't want to out anyone and get them in trouble here. I've also got a slew of msgs right here through OS mail directly about you and how you treat/ talk to people here.


Also lets not pretend like I havent made major community contributions in the form of community contests, mechanic breakdowns, skill guides, I've done tons of research which has been implemented directly into the game in the way of fighter likeness and moves. I've made and presented more than a dozen CAF formulas for fighters people want to play as. I've made many detailed threads & posts discussing this game in hardcore depth.

You just don't like me. Even just saying "That kid" about a full grown 30 year old man is your way of making a subtle dig at me.

*edit*
It's also funny to me because I've actually messaged you more than once trying to clear the air, and let you know I have no beef at all with you, and have nothing but respect. But nah, you legit don't care at all.

Whatever though. It's all good brother.

[MacAttack33]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Also this game has been purchased by hundreds of thousands of people. In the polls on OS, I've seen maybe 100 people here have actually voted (way less than 1% of all purchasers). In those polls I've seen the numbers come in around 60-65% UD3. So 60-65 people assuming the same people arent voting in multiple polls.

Now if your position is that the less than 1% who vote on OS and multiple sites should ABSOLUTELY determine what goes in the game, thats an interesting position to have.

The fact that we are talking about less than 1 percent here is missing the larger point, which is making inferences about the entire customer base from this data. This is what a sample size is for:

"The sample size is an important feature of any empirical study in which the goal is to make inferences about a population from a sample."

For example, there are about 200 million adult or voting age Americans. But the average poll has a sample size of 1,000 adults.

Even in this scenario, a sample size of 1000 will give you a +/-3% margin of error 19 times out of 20 (95%).

So, we’re not off base using hundreds of people as the sample size to make inferences about the entire customer base.

A sample size of 400 will give you a +/-5% margin of error 19 times out of 20 (95%)

Also, you have to take into account that this is 60-65 percent on an EA board. So, we are taking a sample from a group where EA fans are vastly over represented.

I dont give a **** about a poll. Present arguments that clearly justify this change and why your way is the best approach.

I think you should based on how it represents the desires of the entire customer base as noted above.

[johnmangala]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Things like-

TKOs/rock from GNP
Clinch locomotion
Grounded mobility
TD Struggle
Ground sways
Positions like body triangle, cage seated etc
Guard pull
TD individuality and uniqueness
etc

- would be very welcome in the EA UFC games. They should try to patch in as many of these as possible before the patch cycle ends and then get most if not all of them in for EA UFC 4.

[aholbert32]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Slow down there brother.

I got so many messages on my psn after I was banned about how insane it was that I was banned. Then another run of msgs about when I'd be back. I've already sent them to Mill, which is how I was unbanned the first time around. I'll gladly post them here as well, although I wouldn't want to out anyone and get them in trouble here. I've also got a slew of msgs right here through OS mail directly about you and how you treat/ talk to people here.


Also lets not pretend like I havent made major community contributions in the form of community contests, mechanic breakdowns, skill guides, I've done tons of research which has been implemented directly into the game in the way of fighter likeness and moves. I've made and presented more than a dozen CAF formulas for fighters people want to play as. I've made many detailed threads & posts discussing this game in hardcore depth.

You just don't like me. Even just saying "That kid" about a full grown 30 year old man is your way of making a subtle dig at me.

*edit*
It's also funny to me because I've actually messaged you more than once trying to clear the air, and let you know I have no beef at all with you, and have nothing but respect. But nah, you legit don't care at all.

Whatever though. It's all good brother.

Nah, I dont get down like you do. I dont talk **** in the forums and then try to send a dm to "clear the air" and say it was no disrespect. I guess I'm built different.

As I said, the community didnt change at all when you were gone. It was still a good community that was beneficial to the devs and others. Sure you've contributed. Some positive...some not so much (part of the reason you've been banned multiple times).

I've sat back and let 1212 and you throw shots for the last few months but I'm only willing to do that for so long before I start firing back. I speak respectfully to people I respect. Anyone who reads my post can see a clear difference in the way I speak to people who present developed arguments and who are able to see things in shades of gray vs. the people who just shout basic arguments. That also works for people who consistently agree with those people. You fall into the latter category.

[aholbert32]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

The fact that we are talking about less than 1 percent here is missing the larger point, which is making inferences about the entire customer base from this data. This is what a sample size is for:

"The sample size is an important feature of any empirical study in which the goal is to make inferences about a population from a sample."

For example, there are about 200 million adult or voting age Americans. But the average poll has a sample size of 1,000 adults.

Even in this scenario, a sample size of 1000 will give you a +/-3% margin of error 19 times out of 20 (95%).

So, we’re not off base using hundreds of people as the sample size to make inferences about the entire customer base.

A sample size of 400 will give you a +/-5% margin of error 19 times out of 20 (95%)

Also, you have to take into account that this is 60-65 percent on an EA board. So, we are taking a sample from a group where EA fans are vastly over represented.



I think you should based on how it represents the desires of the entire customer base as noted above.

The problem is with the sample. Not to get political but lets say I did a poll on Donald Trump's approval rating and I took a poll of 100 people and 95 of which are in the African American community. Now AAs arent a big fan of Trump and the poll would likely fall in the 85%-95% disapproval range.

Now if I took that poll and said "Well I took a poll and it proves that Trump has a 90%" disapproval rating"...that would be misleading. Yes the poll showed those numbers but it was skewed by who I sampled. It doesnt adequately sample the entire country.

Same thing here. This isnt an EA board. Its a OS board. Most of the people who come to OS are very focused on "realism". They dislike "arcade" elements in games. So if you take a poll here its expected to skew that way.

So if you are saying "the hardcore/realism community wants UD3 grappling and this poll proves it", you can absolutely make that argument. If your argument is this poll represents the entire community, thats incorrect. It doesnt. The same way MMAGame's poll likely doesnt.

I'm not disgarding either poll but I'm not giving it more credence than it deserves because of who was sampled.

[MacAttack33]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

The problem is with the sample. Not to get political but lets say I did a poll on Donald Trump's approval rating and I took a poll of 100 people and 95 of which are in the African American community. Now AAs arent a big fan of Trump and the poll would likely fall in the 85%-95% disapproval range.

Now if I took that poll and said "Well I took a poll and it proves that Trump has a 90%" disapproval rating"...that would be misleading. Yes the poll showed those numbers but it was skewed by who I sampled. It doesnt adequately sample the entire country.

Same thing here. This isnt an EA board. Its a OS board. Most of the people who come to OS are very focused on "realism". They dislike "arcade" elements in games. So if you take a poll here its expected to skew that way.

So if you are saying "the hardcore/realism community wants UD3 grappling and this poll proves it", you can absolutely make that argument. If your argument is this poll represents the entire community, thats incorrect. It doesnt. The same way MMAGame's poll likely doesnt.

I'm not disgarding either poll but I'm not giving it more credence than it deserves because of who was sampled.

This poll does not represent the entire community. Definitely not my argument.


The argument is that there is a big enough sample from many different sites where the overwhelming majority voice displeasure with the ground game: Reddit - a big one where many have voiced concerns, Twitter, OS, the actual EA boards, Xbox user reviews, etc.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

This is another twitch gamer vs hardcore, real life grappler who wants realism discussion. Twitchy gamers who live in their mother’s basement want the current denial based - seizure / faking system.

Real life grapplers loved the controls, feel and strategy of UD3. There was no need to have perfectly timed inputs just to hold a position, it was more strategic. Haz and others described it well earlier I believe, so I won’t attempt to do it here again. Take heed of what your community wants; most don’t like the current grappling and controls at all and numerous polls reflect that now.

I dont think that's a fair generalization at all.

I dont live in my mothers basement, I dont have great reaction time, I play this game at a high level I played UD3 at a high level, and I've been doing Jiu Jitsu consistently going on 10 years and I LARGELY prefer the current core system over UD3's in terms of realism and strategy.

For one, in UD3 you simply had to hold left or right on the stick to stop ANY advancement/transition. If stopping someone from advancing was so mindlessly easy, Jiu Jitsu would be called human checkers.

I will concede that the current grappling meta is too denial based and that needs to change, but a complete overhaul isnt necessary. Tweaks and additions can go a long way.

- Sub transitions to sub positions from each position that are unreactable.(Fighting for the underhook in half guard) You wouldn't be able to reactively deny these transitions.

- Persistent transition buff. Right now when you have a transition race, if your opponents transition completes before your transition, your transition reset to 25% progress, making the denial easy for your opponent. This discourages transitioning and encourages denying. Getting rid of the transition reset and allowing the progress to follow through your opponents transition would open up movement.

- GnP rehaul. The one thing I definitely give UD3 is that the GnP was very satisfying in terms of responsiveness and feel. This is something that I feel has been inadvertently ignored in the EA UFC series and I think a much needed rehaul here would go a long way in making the grappling more entertaining.