EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

[Phillyboi207]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

People that have never done jiu jitsu vastly underestimate the role that physicality plays. There are weight classes for a reason. It's because a larger man can smother, control and hold position regardless of skill level.

Holding the sticks and the struggle for each transition in UD3 represents that physicality very well. It also has the additional, secondary advantage of being more accessible to a newcomer.

You could also delay transitions in UD3, as long as you wanted, so it wasn't easy to time a reversal at all. It was definitely a more strategically rich game than what we have currently. For example, like NEWWS said you could act like you are going to transition, bait the reversal and then pass.

If anything people have never done jiu jitsu overestimate physicality.

I’ve been ragdolled by guys much smaller than me. I’ve witnessed legit HW size former collegiate LBs tossed by a 180lb Brown belt.

Holding should be a thing but only in terms of Left/right and up/down.

Physicality matters more when skill is comparable.

[MacAttack33]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Physicality matters more when skill is comparable.

Such as in an MMA match. Physicality matters here big time.

The UD3 system of working for each transition (multiple attempts when opponent is blocking) represented this physicality very well.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

The people who mindlessly punch flicked were able to use it to compensate for skill to a moderate level just by hitting 2 inputs repeatedly.

At a higher level, you could manipulate the exploit by simply not spamming the two inputs in a predictable pattern, but taking a short pause between the two after someone caught on. Punch flicking gave you the ability to control the tempo while grappling in UD3 and it absolutely made a difference at a high level if the person abusing it had an ounce of thought behind using it.

I take it you guys never played Evil97 in the UD series. He gave Tweedy a ton of issues exploiting this as well. I was new to the competitive scene at the time, but if you asked Tweedy, Evil, Retracted..etc they would tell you the same Im sure.

And yes, physicality does matter. As someone even brought up, we have weight classes now and partly for that reason.(Mostly because the UFC wanted to "professionalize" the sport.) Anyways, I think we can agree that physicality comes second to knowledge, skill, and execution unless the size/strength difference is absurd. If someone my size is simply trying to stop me from passing or breaking their guard by "holding", sorry Im breaking and passing easy. There is no one end all be all universal method from every position to 100% neutralize any attempt at advancing. Not only is this unrealistic, but it was too limited by design which left you less room for creativity and conditioning.

[WarMMA]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

The people who mindlessly punch flicked were able to use it to compensate for skill to a moderate level just by hitting 2 inputs repeatedly.

At a higher level, you could manipulate the exploit by simply not spamming the two inputs in a predictable pattern, but taking a short pause between the two after someone caught on. Punch flicking gave you the ability to control the tempo while grappling in UD3 and it absolutely made a difference at a high level if the person abusing it had an ounce of thought behind using it.

I fought all types of punch flickers. The ones that mindlessly did it and skilled guys that tried to wait a while after they punched to flick the stick. Those guys couldn't hardly count on one hand the amount of times they got a reversal on me. Trust me I can tell you for a fact that against a really good player, punch flicking was death. If i'm on top, i'll have you mounted in no time if you insist on punch flicking. If i'm on bottom, i'm escaping with the quickness if you insist on punch flicking. Doesn't matter what kind of pattern they used. And once they caught on to what I was doing, most became stick huggers and just tried to hold block, which led to me transitioning in a few attempts anyway. Yes it was an exploit, but at a really high lvl it didn't work that well at all. Maybe with online lag it worked better.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

It was definitely a more strategically rich game than what we have currently

Do you play ranked? If so, what division are you in?

[bmlimo]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I dont think that's a fair generalization at all.

I dont live in my mothers basement, I dont have great reaction time, I play this game at a high level I played UD3 at a high level, and I've been doing Jiu Jitsu consistently going on 10 years and I LARGELY prefer the current core system over UD3's in terms of realism and strategy.

For one, in UD3 you simply had to hold left or right on the stick to stop ANY advancement/transition. If stopping someone from advancing was so mindlessly easy, Jiu Jitsu would be called human checkers.

I will concede that the current grappling meta is too denial based and that needs to change, but a complete overhaul isnt necessary. Tweaks and additions can go a long way.

- Sub transitions to sub positions from each position that are unreactable.(Fighting for the underhook in half guard) You wouldn't be able to reactively deny these transitions.

- Persistent transition buff. Right now when you have a transition race, if your opponents transition completes before your transition, your transition reset to 25% progress, making the denial easy for your opponent. This discourages transitioning and encourages denying. Getting rid of the transition reset and allowing the progress to follow through your opponents transition would open up movement.

Interesting points, I think undisputed 3 grappling more realistic because it simulates better a fight... u can say it was easier to master... but come on, sports game shouldn't be hard to master... wtf... what shoul play a big role is your game plan, make the damm right decision.

Punch flick, get to side control and dish out as much damage as possible before they block a strike and transition. Rinse and repeat.

Even if you exclude the punch flick exploit(Which THQ didnt get rid of for the duration of the entire series) It was easier to master because it required much less from the players. If you didnt want someone to move, you could literally hug the stick to the side for their 1st 3 transition attempts. After that you hail mary with a reversal attempt that wasnt very hard to time anyways.

There wasn't nearly as much room for player error as the current system, and because of that it was easier to pick up and easier to master. Every position played nearly the same, excluding side control and BSC.

Where UD3 grappling shined was all the extras, the submission reversals, feel of GnP, sways, rocked states/tko's.

again, we could make a more complex system, but why should it be hard to master? Game plan,right decisions should be the main factor . Also a system based on flick the fastest as u can to get advantage isnt so complex, what make it complex its because its more a player vs player mind game than the game itself(before someone say about contextual transit+momentum transition) they are only pontual things that in anyway change what the game is about

I agree that EA UFC 3 grappling is (much) harder to pick up and harder to master, I was just disagreeing with the general notion that UD grappling was easy to master. People had several years to learn the mechanics since UD2009, at that time few people even knew what the reversals were... Reversing a good player in UD3 was very hard, as you know he could interrupt the transitions to bait your reversal attempt and pass. It should have been a hail mary reversal, as you called it. Also for the side control, against a good player, it was hard to dish out significant damage (block+minor transition and you're out). As for the puch-flick trick, I don't know, I never found that exploit particularly hard to overcome, you just had to interrupt transitions. Blocking a transition was obviously much much easier in UD3 (hug the stick)as opposed to EA UFC 3 reaction/guessing-based denials, which is not far from reality imo though. I'm a BJJ advanced blue, you're a higher belt if I got it right. Anyway I think you'd agree that even a strong enough white belt who is just focused on holding on to you with all his force, requires some effort and work to pass, no? Adding all the "extras", as you call them, UD3 had would be huge anyway. (sorry for the wall of text, I can't seem to add paragraphs)

the difference its when you are fighting you are at least feeling what your opponent is planning to do, you can anticipate by his moves, in this game we only have vision, turn in to a flick faster game boring game...

If anything people have never done jiu jitsu overestimate physicality.

I’ve been ragdolled by guys much smaller than me. I’ve witnessed legit HW size former collegiate LBs tossed by a 180lb Brown belt.

Holding should be a thing but only in terms of Left/right and up/down.

Physicality matters more when skill is comparable.

This is right but also wrong, put 2 guys, same weight, same belt... one in the top just holding(literally waiting the time to pass) and the other one on bottom trying to advance... i belive the chances are high that the guy on top hold the guy on botton or at list finish in a better position... in jiu jitsu has a rule to stay always active ... its because the fight doesn't happen if one of the skilled guys doesnt want...

[ZHunter1990]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Interesting points, I think undisputed 3 grappling more realistic because it simulates better a fight... u can say it was easier to master... but come on, sports game shouldn't be hard to master... wtf... what shoul play a big role is your game plan, make the damm right decision.

Absolutely, any competitive game should be hard to master. Sports game, FPS, traditional fighting game, battle royale...doesnt matter. The last thing you want is a low skill ceilling.

again, we could make a more complex system, but why should it be hard to master? Game plan,right decisions should be the main factor . Also a system based on flick the fastest as u can to get advantage isnt so complex, what make it complex its because its more a player vs player mind game than the game itself(before someone say about contextual transit+momentum transition) they are only pontual things that in anyway change what the game is about


the difference its when you are fighting you are at least feeling what your opponent is planning to do, you can anticipate by his moves, in this game we only have vision, turn in to a flick faster game boring game...

What does flicking the stick fast do? Im lost here. You either have time to reactively deny a transition or you don't. If you dont have time to reactively deny, you pre deny. Pre denials are the most important at the top level because you are making educated assumptions as to what your opponents next move will be. Staying a step ahead of your competition.

[MacAttack33]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

And yes, physicality does matter. As someone even brought up, we have weight classes now and partly for that reason.(Mostly because the UFC wanted to "professionalize" the sport.) Anyways, I think we can agree that physicality comes second to knowledge, skill, and execution unless the size/strength difference is absurd. If someone my size is simply trying to stop me from passing or breaking their guard by "holding", sorry Im breaking and passing easy. There is no one end all be all universal method from every position to 100% neutralize any attempt at advancing. Not only is this unrealistic, but it was too limited by design which left you less room for creativity and conditioning.

I agree with this entirely. However, as NEWSS said a strong white belt, even of equal size can stifle your attempts to pass for 15 - 20 seconds and make you work for it.

This is the struggle that UD3 represents on the ground so well. You could Not 100% neutralize any attempts at advancing because they would eventually get through if you’re just trying hold, just as you said would happen in real life if someone just tried to hold you in guard.

I truly think they should take a poll of many higher level belts to see what they think of each system. Basically a focus group and polling afterward.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I agree with this entirely. However, as NEWSS said a strong white belt, even of equal size can stifle your attempts to pass for 15 - 20 seconds and make you work for it.

This is the struggle that UD3 represents on the ground so well. You could Not 100% neutralize any attempts at advancing because they would eventually get through if you’re just trying hold, just as you said would happen in real life if someone just tried to hold you in guard.

I truly think they should take a poll of many higher level belts to see what they think of each system. Basically a focus group and polling afterward.

I dont agree with that. I could stand up from inside the closed guard no one is simply holding me to prevent me from doing so. Not even for 15-20 seconds.

In fact, that is one of the very reasons passing on the knee's has been forgotten in recent years in BJJ.

So much of this can be subjective and at the end of the day it is personal preference. I prefer what I believe to be a deeper system that requires more fundamental knowledge in the current system, where as many of you prefer the struggle feel of UD3.

For what its worth, I just received my black belt a little over 2 weeks ago and I have my own academy.

[WarMMA]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I agree with this entirely. However, as NEWSS said a strong white belt, even of equal size can stifle your attempts to pass for 15 - 20 seconds and make you work for it.

This is the struggle that UD3 represents on the ground so well. You could Not 100% neutralize any attempts at advancing because they would eventually get through if you’re just trying hold, just as you said would happen in real life if someone just tried to hold you in guard.

I truly think they should take a poll of many higher level belts to see what they think of each system. Basically a focus group and polling afterward.

That's definitely true about the strength and holding thing. I rolled with this purple belt once during my first few weeks of bjj class. I got him down and managed to get to half guard, get the underhook and lock up head and arm control. I was able to hold him there for a while simply because I was stronger than him. I've also had it done to me and seen it done to other guys. UD3 definitely got that feel of holding someone down in their grappling for sure. I dont get that same feeling with EA UFC, but I love the complexity of EA's system. I feel like it can be accomplished just by mixing things from both. Like for example, certain positions could use holding, while other use directional denial, depending on how difficult the position is to hold. Just an idea, but what i'm getting at is mixing the best things from both systems. I think that's the way to go.

[MacAttack33]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I dont agree with that. I could stand up from inside the closed guard no one is simply holding me to prevent me from doing so. Not even for 15-20 seconds.

In fact, that is one of the very reasons passing on the knee's has been forgotten in recent years in BJJ.

So much of this can be subjective and at the end of the day it is personal preference. I prefer what I believe to be a deeper system that requires more fundamental knowledge in the current system, where as many of you prefer the struggle feel of UD3.

For what its worth, I just received my black belt a little over 2 weeks ago and I have my own academy.

I actually knew about that, and congrats by the way!
Came across it in Twitter looking at GPDs posts.

My point about 15 - 20 seconds is more about people of somewhat equal skill being able to prevent the other from PASSING for that length of time at least.

You could stand up, but that doesn’t give you an immediate pass for free card. There is still a struggle, and at the end of the day, like you said, it’s a preference for this feel of the struggle.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I actually knew about that, and congrats by the way!
Came across it in Twitter looking at GPDs posts.

My point about 15 - 20 seconds is more about people of somewhat equal skill being able to prevent the other from PASSING for that length of time at least.

You could stand up, but that doesn’t give you an immediate pass for free card. There is still a struggle, and at the end of the day, like you said, it’s a preference for this feel of the struggle.

Preventing your opponent of equal skill from passing requires more than just holding though right?

Standing up doesn't get you a free pass for sure. But it's an advancement in positional hierarchy that cannot just be stopped by holding and it isn't stopped the same way that you would stop traditional on the knee guard breaks/passes.

My argument is that you should have to mount the proper defensive action to the offensive action, that there should not just be one defensive input to stifle all offensive actions.

And thanks!

[WarMMA]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Preventing your opponent of equal skill from passing requires more than just holding though right?

Standing up doesn't get you a free pass for sure. But it's an advancement in positional hierarchy that cannot just be stopped by holding and it isn't stopped the same way that you would stop traditional on the knee guard breaks/passes.

My argument is that you should have to mount the proper defensive action to the offensive action, that there should not just be one defensive input to stifle all offensive actions.

And thanks!

What do you think of certain positions using holding and others directional input, depending on how difficult the position is irl?

[ZHunter1990]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

What do you think of certain positions using holding and others directional input, depending on how difficult the position is irl?

I think its already pretty easy to hold quite a few positions in game. I wouldnt want it to become a stall fest.

Not saying it couldnt be a good thing but stuff would have to be adjusted to ensure stalling doesnt become easier.

[MacAttack33]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Preventing your opponent of equal skill from passing requires more than just holding though right?

Standing up doesn't get you a free pass for sure. But it's an advancement in positional hierarchy that cannot just be stopped by holding and it isn't stopped the same way that you would stop traditional on the knee guard breaks/passes.

My argument is that you should have to mount the proper defensive action to the offensive action, that there should not just be one defensive input to stifle all offensive actions.

And thanks!

Having to mount the proper defensive action in the game currently requires always doing this reflexively with perfect timing.

And as you know in real life the proper defense can be mounted ahead of time, not always having to be perfectly timed as the opponent is transitioning, as is the case now. This is a very video gamey mechanic.