EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

[aholbert32]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

This poll does not represent the entire community. Definitely not my argument.


The argument is that there is a big enough sample from many different sites where the overwhelming majority voice displeasure with the ground game: Reddit - a big one where many have voiced concerns, Twitter, OS, the actual EA boards, Xbox user reviews, etc.

I dont agree that the overwhelming majority has been vocal about wanting UD3's ground game to replace UFC3. The majority seems to agree on what they want to see improved (Ground and Pound animations and power, things like ground sways, more grappling positions etc).

Ive been on Reddit and the ESFL discord and havent seen a significant demand that they revert to UFC3's system. There are significant numbers of people in certain communities like the ranked comp community who have been vocally against it. The only overwhelming majority I've seen is OS and the small amount of people on EA forums.

My only objection is that you maintain that the overwhelming majority wants something that I'm not seeing.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I think more ppl like UD3's system because it was fleshed out more and more easily accessible. Like they didn't have to do all these directional inputs to deny stuff. It was just straight to the point. EA's system is more skill based which some like me prefer, however, it may not have been the best approach as it regards to new comers and casuals. From a hardcore prespective, UD3's grappling system had a more grappling feel to it too cuz of how the posturing system worked and how the grapple blocking worked. Like it felt like you were actually trying to hold a guy down and hold position. That said if I had it my way, i'd kinda prefer a mix of the two systems. Take the best things from both systems and bring them together. But some ppl wanna just throw out EA's system and bring in UD3's...that would probably end up in disaster.

This is the best argument for UD3 grappling. It was easier for casuals to pick up and understand. Unfortunately it was also easier to master.

[MacAttack33]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I dont agree that the overwhelming majority has been vocal about wanting UD3's ground game to replace UFC3. The majority seems to agree on what they want to see improved (Ground and Pound animations and power, things like ground sways, more grappling positions etc).

Ive been on Reddit and the ESFL discord and havent seen a significant demand that they revert to UFC3's system. There are significant numbers of people in certain communities like the ranked comp community who have been vocally against it. The only overwhelming majority I've seen is OS and the small amount of people on EA forums.

My only objection is that you maintain that the overwhelming majority wants something that I'm not seeing.

They are only stating that they are unhappy with the current system. They don’t all mention wanting UD3 instead you’re correct.

I would make the logical assumption that they would be much happier with the UD3 system in its place in light of their displeasure, but that is an assumption.

As you’ve conceded though, the realism/ hardcore community does want UD3 grappling based on the poll. I don’t think that should be dismissed outright.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I dont think that's a fair generalization at all.

I dont live in my mothers basement, I dont have great reaction time, I play this game at a high level I played UD3 at a high level, and I've been doing Jiu Jitsu consistently going on 10 years and I LARGELY prefer the current core system over UD3's in terms of realism and strategy.

For one, in UD3 you simply had to hold left or right on the stick to stop ANY advancement/transition. If stopping someone from advancing was so mindlessly easy, Jiu Jitsu would be called human checkers.

I will concede that the current grappling meta is too denial based and that needs to change, but a complete overhaul isnt necessary. Tweaks and additions can go a long way.

- Sub transitions to sub positions from each position that are unreactable.(Fighting for the underhook in half guard) You wouldn't be able to reactively deny these transitions.

- Persistent transition buff. Right now when you have a transition race, if your opponents transition completes before your transition, your transition reset to 25% progress, making the denial easy for your opponent. This discourages transitioning and encourages denying. Getting rid of the transition reset and allowing the progress to follow through your opponents transition would open up movement.

- GnP rehaul. The one thing I definitely give UD3 is that the GnP was very satisfying in terms of responsiveness and feel. This is something that I feel has been inadvertently ignored in the EA UFC series and I think a much needed rehaul here would go a long way in making the grappling more entertaining.

This is a great post

Any chance the persistent denial thing will be changed for UFC 3?

[aholbert32]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

They are only stating that they are unhappy with the current system. They don’t all mention wanting UD3 instead you’re correct.

I would make the logical assumption that they would be much happier with the UD3 system in its place in light of their displeasure, but that is an assumption.

As you’ve conceded though, the realism/ hardcore community does want UD3 grappling based on the poll. I don’t think that should be dismissed outright.

I've never done that. I've never even hinted at that. I'm a part of that community. I just dont think that we should ever assume that just because this community wants something, it means everyone else wants it.

[MacAttack33]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I've never done that. I've never even hinted at that. I'm a part of that community. I just dont think that we should ever assume that just because this community wants something, it means everyone else wants it.

Really? See below. It follows from the basic statistics principles I posted about earlier as well:

So if you are saying "the hardcore/realism community wants UD3 grappling and this poll proves it", you can absolutely make that argument.

[aholbert32]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Really? See below. It follows from the basic statistics principles I posted about earlier as well:

Huh? How does that show im dismissing that? The quote says that you can make that argument. Again, I'm just not willing to make the assumption you are making that people outside of the community want UD3 grappling simply because they are unhappy with aspects of UFC 3's grappling.

[MacGowan]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Here's some points I wanna throw into this discussion.

• 1. UFC undisputed 3 came out in 2012. This conversation only applies to people who have been playing MMA games for 6 ****ing years.
• 2. I've played UFC 2 and UFC 3 couch with around 50 people. I have yet to see ONE PERSON pull off a denial.

[1212headkick]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I dont think that's a fair generalization at all.

I dont live in my mothers basement, I dont have great reaction time, I play this game at a high level I played UD3 at a high level, and I've been doing Jiu Jitsu consistently going on 10 years and I LARGELY prefer the current core system over UD3's in terms of realism and strategy.

For one, in UD3 you simply had to hold left or right on the stick to stop ANY advancement/transition. If stopping someone from advancing was so mindlessly easy, Jiu Jitsu would be called human checkers.

I will concede that the current grappling meta is too denial based and that needs to change, but a complete overhaul isnt necessary. Tweaks and additions can go a long way.

- Sub transitions to sub positions from each position that are unreactable.(Fighting for the underhook in half guard) You wouldn't be able to reactively deny these transitions.

- Persistent transition buff. Right now when you have a transition race, if your opponents transition completes before your transition, your transition reset to 25% progress, making the denial easy for your opponent. This discourages transitioning and encourages denying. Getting rid of the transition reset and allowing the progress to follow through your opponents transition would open up movement.

- GnP rehaul. The one thing I definitely give UD3 is that the GnP was very satisfying in terms of responsiveness and feel. This is something that I feel has been inadvertently ignored in the EA UFC series and I think a much needed rehaul here would go a long way in making the grappling more entertaining.

Guys if you want **** done talk to zana white. I think no matter what system you go with its a must for casuals and hardcores to take benefit from ud3s training. You could learn to counter each strike. It was organized bygroup of lessons(this concept was stolen from fight night 2 and 3) and it taught you about the sport as well. If anything is needed besides gameplay changes it would have to be the practice mode which is bad strike recorder though is an amazing tool. Theres stuff that should be a skill challenge like intercepts and block counters. The game was easier to master but the denial based system is exploited as well. You didnt mind being the bottom guy as it was fun and you didnt feel as helpless. The posturing system with ea improvements is ideal. Half of gnp is the ability to control. This game at first teaches you deny up down left and right but you have zero chance being elite without third party knowledge. That has to change. Theres no where in the game that teaches you block counters undeniable tds sweeps etc. It was easier to master because the game taught you how to play it. Every good fighting game needs a deep flushed training mode.

[NEWSS]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I voted for UD3 but I also don't think they should be starting from scratch, but taking SEVERAL elements from it? Definitely. Also, I disagree completely with those who say UD3 grappling was easy to master.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I voted for UD3 but I also don't think they should be starting from scratch, but taking SEVERAL elements from it? Definitely. Also, I disagree completely with those who say UD3 grappling was easy to master.

Punch flick, get to side control and dish out as much damage as possible before they block a strike and transition. Rinse and repeat.

Even if you exclude the punch flick exploit(Which THQ didnt get rid of for the duration of the entire series) It was easier to master because it required much less from the players. If you didnt want someone to move, you could literally hug the stick to the side for their 1st 3 transition attempts. After that you hail mary with a reversal attempt that wasnt very hard to time anyways.

There wasn't nearly as much room for player error as the current system, and because of that it was easier to pick up and easier to master. Every position played nearly the same, excluding side control and BSC.

Where UD3 grappling shined was all the extras, the submission reversals, feel of GnP, sways, rocked states/tko's.

[NEWSS]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Punch flick, get to side control and dish out as much damage as possible before they block a strike and transition. Rinse and repeat.

Even if you exclude the punch flick exploit(Which THQ didnt get rid of for the duration of the entire series) It was easier to master because it required much less from the players. If you didnt want someone to move, you could literally hug the stick to the side for their 1st 3 transition attempts. After that you hail mary with a reversal attempt that wasnt very hard to time anyways.

There wasn't nearly as much room for player error as the current system, and because of that it was easier to pick up and easier to master. Every position played nearly the same, excluding side control and BSC.

Where UD3 grappling shined was all the extras, the submission reversals, feel of GnP, sways, rocked states/tko's.

I agree that EA UFC 3 grappling is (much) harder to pick up and harder to master, I was just disagreeing with the general notion that UD grappling was easy to master. People had several years to learn the mechanics since UD2009, at that time few people even knew what the reversals were... Reversing a good player in UD3 was very hard, as you know he could interrupt the transitions to bait your reversal attempt and pass. It should have been a hail mary reversal, as you called it. Also for the side control, against a good player, it was hard to dish out significant damage (block+minor transition and you're out). As for the puch-flick trick, I don't know, I never found that exploit particularly hard to overcome, you just had to interrupt transitions. Blocking a transition was obviously much much easier in UD3 (hug the stick)as opposed to EA UFC 3 reaction/guessing-based denials, which is not far from reality imo though. I'm a BJJ advanced blue, you're a higher belt if I got it right. Anyway I think you'd agree that even a strong enough white belt who is just focused on holding on to you with all his force, requires some effort and work to pass, no? Adding all the "extras", as you call them, UD3 had would be huge anyway. (sorry for the wall of text, I can't seem to add paragraphs)

[MacAttack33]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

I agree that EA UFC 3 grappling is (much) harder to pick up and harder to master, I was just disagreeing with the general notion that UD grappling was easy to master. People had several years to learn the mechanics since UD2009, at that time few people even knew what the reversals were... Reversing a good player in UD3 was very hard, as you know he could interrupt the transitions to bait your reversal attempt and pass. It should have been a hail mary reversal, as you called it. Also for the side control, against a good player, it was hard to dish out significant damage (block+minor transition and you're out). As for the puch-flick trick, I don't know, I never found that exploit particularly hard to overcome, you just had to interrupt transitions. Blocking a transition was obviously much much easier in UD3 (hug the stick)as opposed to EA UFC 3 reaction/guessing-based denials, which is not far from reality imo though. I'm a BJJ advanced blue, you're a higher belt if I got it right. Anyway I think you'd agree that even a strong enough white belt who is just focused on holding on to you with all his force, requires some effort and work to pass, no? Adding all the "extras", as you call them, UD3 had would be huge anyway. (sorry for the wall of text, I can't seem to add paragraphs)

People that have never done jiu jitsu vastly underestimate the role that physicality plays. There are weight classes for a reason. It's because a larger man can smother, control and hold position regardless of skill level.

Holding the sticks and the struggle for each transition in UD3 represents that physicality very well. It also has the additional, secondary advantage of being more accessible to a newcomer.

You could also delay transitions in UD3, as long as you wanted, so it wasn't easy to time a reversal at all. It was definitely a more strategically rich game than what we have currently. For example, like NEWWS said you could act like you are going to transition, bait the reversal and then pass.

[1212headkick]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Y

Punch flick, get to side control and dish out as much damage as possible before they block a strike and transition. Rinse and repeat.

Even if you exclude the punch flick exploit(Which THQ didnt get rid of for the duration of the entire series) It was easier to master because it required much less from the players. If you didnt want someone to move, you could literally hug the stick to the side for their 1st 3 transition attempts. After that you hail mary with a reversal attempt that wasnt very hard to time anyways.

There wasn't nearly as much room for player error as the current system, and because of that it was easier to pick up and easier to master. Every position played nearly the same, excluding side control and BSC.

Where UD3 grappling shined was all the extras, the submission reversals, feel of GnP, sways, rocked states/tko's.

Couldnt the posturing system bee fixed? A small fix shouldnt be the reason to not use it

[WarMMA]

Re: EA UFC 3 or Undisputed 3 ground game?

Punch flick, get to side control and dish out as much damage as possible before they block a strike and transition. Rinse and repeat.

Even if you exclude the punch flick exploit(Which THQ didnt get rid of for the duration of the entire series) It was easier to master because it required much less from the players. If you didnt want someone to move, you could literally hug the stick to the side for their 1st 3 transition attempts. After that you hail mary with a reversal attempt that wasnt very hard to time anyways.

There wasn't nearly as much room for player error as the current system, and because of that it was easier to pick up and easier to master. Every position played nearly the same, excluding side control and BSC.

Where UD3 grappling shined was all the extras, the submission reversals, feel of GnP, sways, rocked states/tko's.

I agree with your overall point that it was easier to master, but tbh at a really high lvl, the punch flick exploit wasn't nearly as effective as you may have thought. You say you played UD3 at a high lvl, so I feel like you should know this. I played UD3 at a high lvl also and once I got good at the grappling, ppl would hardly ever be able to reverse me. In fact punch flick players gave me the easiest time grappling tbh. Why? Reversals (flicks) had animations that played out once you flicked the stick. During that animation, you couldn't do anything. So if you flicked at the wrong time and missed the reversal, I get a free transition and that flick animation was my cue. So once I see your a punch flicker and not really a skilled grappler, i'm faking and stalling my transitions to bait you into flicking and i'm getting straight to mount or escaping from bottom fairly easy. I destroyed so many punch flick players in UD3 this way. The lesser skilled UD3 players punch flicked. That said, I still prefer EA's system over THQ's...i'm just saying that the punch flicking wasn't as dominant as some think.