What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

You stated the person getting beat to the point where it's a 10-8, so it would be tough to sway that.

If it was a matter of, the dude was outworking him clearly for a 10-9 round, and then outta nowhere in the final minute he gets dropped by said dude and almost finished, then yes, that would sway the round for that person.

Please remember what you state my friend. 10-8 rounds are generally rounds where the opposition is rendered completely on the defensive under an onslaught of striking or grappling exchanges (Souza vs Gastelum is an example of a 10-8 grappling round).

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Im just talking about ggs examole of just control for 10-8s. Let's say we have fighter A who takes down fighter B and establishes the side saddle postion for 4 mins. He attempts some ground and pound but nothing to powerful as well as try for arm triangles and arm bars but doesnt get anywhere with them but has clear control in a dominant position for 4 mins. Then the last 30 seconds of the round he slips up and gives his back to his oppenent who instantly grabs an arm and works an armbar, fighter B gets the armband in very deep but due to the time left he cannot finish.

How would you score this round.?

[Good Grappler]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

The reason theres a differnece between damage and control is because its the main rule is who is doing more to contribute to the end of the fight.

Control and duration dont really contribute that much. Unless the controlling fighter is also getting close with subs and gnp.

Control can absolutely contribute massively to the end of the fight, especially when mixed with positional dominance. A skilled grappler can completely overwhelm and demoralize someone without landing a single devestating strike. To a point where the opponent is praying that they go for a choke to get it over with, or that the ref will just stop it.

Ben Askren finished Andrey Koreshkov (an absolute beast) with control alone. I mean, Ben’s GnP in that fight was some of the worst I’ve seen... slow, sloppy punches... he couldn’t hurt Koreshkov to save his life. But his top game was so overwhelming, Koreshkov just stopped moving so the ref would stop it.

Edit: and it’s worth noting Koreshkov is no bum. He obliterated Bendo and held the Bellator title briefly

Punching of course helps, having Khabib level GnP of course helps. But it’s not necessary to overwhelm and break someone.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Control can contribute massively to the end of the fight, when mixed with positional dominance. A skilled grappler can completely overwhelm and demoralize someone without landing a single devestating strike. To a point where the opponent is praying that they go for a choke to get it over with, or that the ref will just stop it.

Ben Askren finished Andrey Koreshkov (an absolute beast) with control alone. I mean, Ben’s GnP in that fight was some of the worst I’ve ever seen, slow and sloppy punches... he couldn’t hurt Koreshkov to save his life. But his control and top game was so overwhelming, Koreshkov just shelled up so Ben could hit him a few times and the ref would stop it. Even then, Ben’s punches were super weak, and Ben just looked at the ref like “this dudes done” and the ref stopped it.

And that’s not the only time Ben has rendered fighters totally helpless with minimal GnP. Douglas Lima was pretty much ready to quit by round 4, Askren just literally lacks the GnP or submissions to quit. I think Lima went the distance in that fight, but it still showed what positional dominance and control can do to someone.

What do you mean by "control" though? As askren is literally threating with submission and GNP all the time in that fight. Control is scored based in control in the dominant position, ie who is controlling the grappling exchange.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

I'm not saying I am 100 percent correct btw but I think its better to discuss examples to get to a concrete version that could be used for future games.

[Good Grappler]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

What do you mean by "control" though? As askren is literally threating with submission and GNP all the time in that fight. Control is scored based in control in the dominant position, ie who is controlling the grappling exchange.

Yeah, like he’s literally ‘controlling’ the grappling exchange, positionally speaking. At any point during the fight, Ben has control over the physical position Andrey Koreshkov is in.

You’d just have to watch the fight to see what I mean.

https://youtu.be/09x_7ySIv5Q

I definitely wouldn’t consider any of that GnP to be threatening. Sure, Ben went for a guillotine at one point, but that was 42% just him trolling. Ben’s got a very unusual style, and a lot of his GnP or submission attempts are just funky ploys to maintain top position or literally troll his opponent. Especially at that point in his career (nowadays his subs and GnP are much more threatening).

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Yeah, like he’s literally ‘controlling’ the grappling exchange, positionally speaking. At any point during the fight, Ben has control over the physical position Andrey Koreshkov is in.

You’d just have to watch the fight to see what I mean.

https://youtu.be/09x_7ySIv5Q

I definitely wouldn’t consider any of that GnP to be threatening. Sure, Ben went for a guillotine at one point, but that was 42% just him trolling. Ben’s got a very unusual style, and a lot of his GnP or submission attempts are just funky ploys to maintain top position or literally troll his opponent. Especially at that point in his career (nowadays his subs and GnP are much more threatening).

Yes I am aware of the fight, I watched it to back myself up.

You seem to have your own version of what control means, he is doing more than just controlling imo.

[Haz____]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

I take you down 30 seconds in to a round and stay in half guard dropping postured down strikes the entire round. You attempt a kimura 3 times while in bottom half guard but never get past the 2nd stage and never get out of half guard.....10-8 round?

I take you down 30 seconds into a round and quickly move to mount. I hold mount for the next 3:30 landing postured down strikes and never attempting a sub. You transition from full mount to half guard to full guard and attempt a triangle with 30 seconds to go that gets to the third stage....10-8 round?

I'd say both are 10-8s. Possibly 10-9s.


First scenario-
If bottom guy is also throwing elbows from the bottom consistently, then it's for sure a 10-9. If hes throwing bows, locking on sub attempts, and top guy isn't throwing much but focused purely on denials, I'd say bottem guy can possibly win a 10-9.


2nd scenerio-
Most likely a 10-8. 1 sub with nothing else isn't enough. If bottom guy is throwing strikes, elbows, and gets that close on the sub it's for sure at least a 10-9, but possibly a 10-9 going to bottom guy. Again though, only if top guy isn't really throwing anything.

Control is the core, but enough offense from the sub fighter can potentially overtake the control, if the control doesn't have any offense, even from a disadvantage position. But there are many interacting variables at play. If top player is controlling, and landing consecutive- even just unpostured strikes, it's going to be much harder for sub fighters offense to overtake top players points.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

@Lauri

He also says dangerous postions that your oppenent has to defend to get themselves out. So mount, back mount, crucifix, side saddle are all dangerous postions you oppenent has to defend to get themselves out. He even says everything is based upon postion, for domination.

Phillyboi said "control". That implies purely maintaining position rather than threatening to finish the fight. When John McCarthy talked about domination he was still emphasizing working towards a finish.

So we shouldn't put realistic things in as you might not like them nice.

I love how you state this in such a condescending tone as if it isn't common sense to avoid aspects that make the entertainment product less entertaining for 99% of the audience. Why not add randomly occurring eyepokes and low blows while we're at it? People might not like but it's realistic. It's not a simulator so arguing that something should be added purely because of realism is a weak reasoning.

Also is stalling in mount possible? People get stood up all the time in mount.

"So mount, back mount, crucifix, side saddle are all dangerous postions you oppenent has to defend to get themselves out. He even says everything is based upon postion, for domination."

So why are they getting stood up? Shouldn't the defender try to get out instead?

I dont see why that would be an issue. Onus would be on the bottom fighter to stay active so someone isnt just laying on top of them in mount.

Because when you are on top it is much easier to stall and maintain position whereas attacking leaves you more prone to losing position. It makes no sense to reward the guy on top for not attacking, especially with a 10-8.

Control and duration dont really contribute that much. Unless the controlling fighter is also getting close with subs and gnp.

I am so confused by what exactly is your stance.



@Phillyboiiii

As far as it not being fun it all depends who you ask. If the grappling is tuned to be more fast paced and include more scrambles it definitely can be. There are also plenty of people that enjoy grappling just as much as striking. I dont think it’s fair of you to declare what is considered fun.

That is not what you said. You said "If you control a dominant position with 0 damage that’s a 10-8". That is a singular position so for instance mount. The way I interpreted is that you should be given 10-8 rounds for getting mount and blocking every transition without throwing any strikes.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

On mobile so forgive my lazy quoting

@Tomi

“That is not what you said. You said "If you control a dominant position with 0 damage that’s a 10-8". That is a singular position so for instance mount. The way I interpreted is that you should be given 10-8 rounds for getting mount and blocking every transition without throwing any strikes.”

Yeah I think that’s how it should be if if were possible. I’ve seen fighters hold back mount for entire rounds and get a 10-8.

If the grappling system is in a good place it’d be literally impossible to just hold someone in mount for a full round unless there was a massive skill gap.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Yeah I think that’s how it should be if if were possible. I’ve seen fighters hold back mount for entire rounds and get a 10-8.

If the grappling system is in a good place it’d be literally impossible to just hold someone in mount for a full round unless there was a massive skill gap.

Don't you think these statements are quite conflicting? On one hand you are saying that guys have been able to hold a dominant position (back mount) and get 10-8 but then you say that you shouldn't be able to hold a guy down unless there's a big skill gap. Demian Maia wins decisions when the opponent is good enough to survive his grappling whereas if there is a big skill gap he chokes them out quickly.

Plus from a realism angle I think you are underestimating how easy it is to hold certain positions. Something like flat back mount is extremely difficult to get out of even without a skill disparity.

I don't have an issue with 10-8s if the defending fighter is on pure defense mode while the attacker is attempting offense but rewarding actual stalling is just poor design IMO.

(Also for context, I genuinely enjoy Jon Fitch and Askren fights)

[Phillyboi207]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Don't you think these statements are quite conflicting? On one hand you are saying that guys have been able to hold a dominant position (back mount) and get 10-8 but then you say that you shouldn't be able to hold a guy down unless there's a big skill gap. Demian Maia wins decisions when the opponent is good enough to survive his grappling whereas if there is a big skill gap he chokes them out quickly.

Plus from a realism angle I think you are underestimating how easy it is to hold certain positions. Something like flat back mount is extremely difficult to get out of even without a skill disparity.

I don't have an issue with 10-8s if the defending fighter is on pure defense mode while the attacker is attempting offense but rewarding actual stalling is just poor design IMO.

(Also for context, I genuinely enjoy Jon Fitch and Askren fights)

I think the issue is I was referring to both real life and video games.

In real life someone will hold back mount and get a 10-8.

In the game it’s pretty difficult to attain those dominant positions and keep them.

If you let your opponent get / hold a dominant position that’s on you and you havent managed to inflict any damage or threaten with any subs the entire round that’s on you.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

@Lauri

Phillyboi said "control". That implies purely maintaining position rather than threatening to finish the fight. When John McCarthy talked about domination he was still emphasizing working towards a finish.



I love how you state this in such a condescending tone as if it isn't common sense to avoid aspects that make the entertainment product less entertaining for 99% of the audience. Why not add randomly occurring eyepokes and low blows while we're at it? People might not like but it's realistic. It's not a simulator so arguing that something should be added purely because of realism is a weak reasoning.



"So mount, back mount, crucifix, side saddle are all dangerous postions you oppenent has to defend to get themselves out. He even says everything is based upon postion, for domination."

So why are they getting stood up? Shouldn't the defender try to get out instead?



Because when you are on top it is much easier to stall and maintain position whereas attacking leaves you more prone to losing position. It makes no sense to reward the guy on top for not attacking, especially with a 10-8.



I am so confused by what exactly is your stance.

Bolded I agree, I wasnt sure what Good grapples was meaning by control either.

Second point sure add them as an option in a sim mode, think that adds a lot of depth to the game. Same with having a cut option that drains block and headmovement until the end of the round. Very realistic gameplay is very appealing to a large audience. Well if you dont think we should argue for realsitic things because its not a simulator I really don't understand what we can argue for then.

Because they currently do get stood up in this game, haz uploaded a video of him getting stood up from mount by denying a few transitions.

Why would they be rewarded for not attacking?

[tomitomitomi]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Well if you dont think we should argue for realsitic things because its not a simulator I really don't understand what we can argue for then.

What I meant is that realism shouldn't be prioritized over fun. For example, I don't think it should be possible to break your hands with the first 1-2 you throw just because it can happen in real life. There are some purists who think it should be possible but I believe they are a very small minority.

edit: Obviously there are also things that are both realistic and fun.

Because they currently do get stood up in this game, haz uploaded a video of him getting stood up from mount by denying a few transitions.

Why would they be rewarded for not attacking?

The way I still understand it, Phillyboy thinks that instead of getting stood up they should be allowed to stay on mount and be given a 10-8 for denying transitions all round with no attempts to finish.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

“The way I still understand it, Phillyboy thinks that instead of getting stood up they should be allowed to stay on mount and be given a 10-8 for denying transitions all round with no attempts to finish.”

Not at all. I want things to mimic real life. You’d get stood up for literally not doing anything but holding position for minutes at a time.

We were just talkin about judging not refereeing. In a hypothetical situation where someone is able to maintain mount without taking damage that would count as a 10-8.

Would that ever happen? No because who wouldnt attempts ANY strikes or subs from a dominant position? Also a ref would stand them up after a couple minutes of literally doing nothing.

Now if the bottom fighter keeps working back to FG or HG and the top fighter keeps getting back to mount/side control I dont think they’d get stood up despite no strikes/subs taking place.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: What determines a 10-8 grappling round?

Not at all. I want things to mimic real life. You’d get stood up for literally not doing anything but holding position for minutes at a time.

We were just talkin about judging not refereeing. In a hypothetical situation where someone is able to maintain mount without taking damage that would count as a 10-8.

Would that ever happen? No because who wouldnt attempts ANY strikes or subs from a dominant position? Also a ref would stand them up after a couple minutes of literally doing nothing.

This is so confusing. Unless I'm wrong you are stating that.

1. You should get a 10-8 for holding a dominant position for an extended period of time even with no attempt to finish.

2. You should get stood up for holding position for an extended period of time if there is no attempt to finish.

These statements conflict each other. Both judging and refereeing are part of officiating and refereeing can effect scoring (point deduction) so they should support each other.

Besides, I could easily see a scenario where a fighter just stalls a dominant position to win a round 10-8. For instance, imagine its the last round and you're tied in scorecards. Why wouldn't you hold back mount for 90% of the round then try to finish at the final seconds when there is no risk involved? This is of course assuming that holding position is enough to grant a 10-8.