UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

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  • Kingslayer04
    MVP
    • Dec 2017
    • 1482

    #346
    Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

    Originally posted by tomitomitomi
    I find this hilarious. The consensus among sim fanatics here is that you don't gas quickly enough which they also claim is not realistic at all.

    (FWIW, I'm okay with the current stamina)
    I've been playing online again these days and I realised something funny.

    When I'm fighting a Conor and it's striking only, and the guy is active or very active, if the fight makes it to about R3 Conor will usually slow down due to striking alone (of course, by that time I could have been health evented about 5 times myself). The funny thing is, if I try to grapple him to avoid accumulating damage while tiring him out... I won't be able to tire him out. There's just no way to work him on the ground for a round or two so when we get back up he is in a "slower" state like I described earlier (obviously unless the guy spazzes out but even then it's not a certainty).

    The stamina bar should be one, but fighters should lose stamina at different rates depending on whether they are striking or grappling (like now). So that working a Conor actually saps his energy.

    Comment

    • RetractedMonkey
      MVP
      • Dec 2017
      • 1624

      #347
      Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

      Some great opinions on stamina here. There should be a massive increase in short term stamina and a large decrease for long term. Still two stamina bars and differing levels of drain depending on ground and striking stats. If a wrestler gets someone to the ground, they do get a stamina increase like what happens in the game simply because they are more comfortable. Mendez could be spent, get a takedown, and then immediately feel at least a little more energized. I agree that the bars should not be that disparate in comparison like now though. You can be at 40% standing and after a TD be at like 70%. It’s a bit extreme.

      I like the idea of having to deny transitions to complete a submission as well.


      Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

      Comment

      • Kingslayer04
        MVP
        • Dec 2017
        • 1482

        #348
        Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

        Originally posted by RetractedMonkey
        Some great opinions on stamina here. There should be a massive increase in short term stamina and a large decrease for long term. Still two stamina bars and differing levels of drain depending on ground and striking stats. If a wrestler gets someone to the ground, they do get a stamina increase like what happens in the game simply because they are more comfortable. Mendez could be spent, get a takedown, and then immediately feel at least a little more energized. I agree that the bars should not be that disparate in comparison like now though. You can be at 40% standing and after a TD be at like 70%. It’s a bit extreme.

        I like the idea of having to deny transitions to complete a submission as well.


        Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
        I guess I get the logic of re-energising because you're in your element but I'm not sure I'm a fan of it. Maybe if, like you said, the disparity is super small, and only for grapplers. But then again, what if Mendes gets taken down himself? He won't feel energised being on his back, that's actually demoralising. Actually Conor being on top of him in their fight is a good reference point for that.

        Another interesting observation I had was also Conor-related. I think I was using him and stamina was getting low because of striking, and then a grappler, Ortega or whoever it was takes me down and I suddenly get that stamina boost and I'm like...uh, thanks, I guess? Which actually reminds me that if you do manage to tire someone out on the feet and then look to capitalise on it and exacerbate it by grappling them, you won't be able to really take advantage of it the way you should because of the multiple stamina bars.


        Edit: wait, no, was Conor on top of Mendes? Or am I getting it mixed up with the Holloway fight?

        Edit 2: and something I often find myself thinking since I watched Jacare vs. Gastelum is that for all his skills, Jacare doesn't have the energy to utilise it anymore. Full credit to Gastelum for his defensive efforts then but Jacare was just a victim of his age. Maybe that's a matter for the Stats Discussion thread but grappling doesn't always make things easier for you, even if it's your supposed forte.
        Last edited by Kingslayer04; 07-01-2020, 03:56 PM.

        Comment

        • rabbitfistssaipailo
          MVP
          • Nov 2017
          • 1625

          #349
          Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

          I wonder if it will ever be possible to integrate real life submission offence and defence in the UFC games in the distant future . For example

          Player A has player B against the cage , grabs his neck and goes for a guillotine , if he tries to complete the choke standing up , it could be more stages to finish ,but if he chooses to transition by siting down on the choke , dragging his opponent to the ground , the stages to finish the choke is instantly reduced by one stage .

          Player B in defending can choose to defend with a 2 or 1 grip on the wrist of player A which displays and can be initiated by an option on the D pad . ( Forgive me if this example isn't an actual defence , I might be far off the mark but bear with me ) .

          When or if the submission goes to the floor while keeping a finger on any part of the D- pad ... He can opt to move away scrambling his away body from player A , who has to move his own body closer to the body of the other player. I guess this is where the left stick comes in a twirl in the appropriate direction could work for either player .

          To finish the choke , escape the choke , or simply gain dominant position should depend on submission stats ( offence and defence to specific choke , stamina and guess work as to what either player could do next ) .

          I know I'm just rambling ... and dreaming .

          Perhaps one day .

          All I know right now is this :

          The D pad is severely under utilized in this game as is .
          Even x and o save from kness in side control .

          Sent from my Infinix X604 using Operation Sports mobile app

          Comment

          • fishingtime
            Handling it
            • Aug 2013
            • 1738

            #350
            Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

            Originally posted by johnmangala
            Need: Directional clinch entry, right now the clinch entry is stationary even if you are moving forward.



            Also a posting clinch entry instead of the one we have now. So the fighter would extend their arm- stiff arm/long guard and coming within the reach of the post gets you clinched.
            They would basically need to change the entire engine for this. What realistically could be changed to find authenticity?
            @bikingforjesus on Instagram

            Comment

            • fishingtime
              Handling it
              • Aug 2013
              • 1738

              #351
              Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

              Originally posted by rabbitfistssaipailo
              I wonder if it will ever be possible to integrate real life submission offence and defence in the UFC games in the distant future . For example

              Player A has player B against the cage , grabs his neck and goes for a guillotine , if he tries to complete the choke standing up , it could be more stages to finish ,but if he chooses to transition by siting down on the choke , dragging his opponent to the ground , the stages to finish the choke is instantly reduced by one stage .

              Player B in defending can choose to defend with a 2 or 1 grip on the wrist of player A which displays and can be initiated by an option on the D pad . ( Forgive me if this example isn't an actual defence , I might be far off the mark but bear with me ) .

              When or if the submission goes to the floor while keeping a finger on any part of the D- pad ... He can opt to move away scrambling his away body from player A , who has to move his own body closer to the body of the other player. I guess this is where the left stick comes in a twirl in the appropriate direction could work for either player .

              To finish the choke , escape the choke , or simply gain dominant position should depend on submission stats ( offence and defence to specific choke , stamina and guess work as to what either player could do next ) .

              I know I'm just rambling ... and dreaming .

              Perhaps one day .

              All I know right now is this :

              The D pad is severely under utilized in this game as is .
              Even x and o save from kness in side control .

              Sent from my Infinix X604 using Operation Sports mobile app
              They are waiting for you to figure out how to do this.
              @bikingforjesus on Instagram

              Comment

              • Jizamurai
                Rookie
                • Dec 2019
                • 320

                #352
                Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

                Originally posted by mr420_qq
                Exactly how does the block in fnc work? It feels alot like RNG to me but i havent rly "looked into it"


                I don’t know what RNG means but how the block and works in UFC 3 is your need to break down a block meter for you to actually hit someone but in fight night champions you can block but use angles , body placement to punch placement , footwork ,speed and accuracy to actually punch through the guard. So in fight night champion someone can block and they can block like two or three punches but if you set yourself up right you can actually throw your punches through the block repeatedly if done properly. No breakdown required which is true to life and real fighting. In my opinion there shouldn’t be a breakdown meter for the block it’s to Arcady.

                I want to be able to throw a left or right hand down down the middle in between somebody’s guard like how Conor McGregor did to Dennis Siver to End the fight or throw a kick and it hits the guard but also hits the back of the ear. Same goes for the body , how many times have we seen somebody blocked the body but the kick goes right under the elbow and hits the body or someone tries to block the body punch but it hits the gut clean.

                We need all the attribute stats from fight night champions and the blocking mechanics from Fight Night Champions. There’s nothing better than throwing a left uppercut through somebody’s guard and then getting into position to sneak in and throw in the right hand to rock your opponent/Ko your opponent.

                THIS IS A MUST

                Comment

                • RetractedMonkey
                  MVP
                  • Dec 2017
                  • 1624

                  #353
                  Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

                  Originally posted by Kingslayer04
                  I guess I get the logic of re-energising because you're in your element but I'm not sure I'm a fan of it. Maybe if, like you said, the disparity is super small, and only for grapplers. But then again, what if Mendes gets taken down himself? He won't feel energised being on his back, that's actually demoralising. Actually Conor being on top of him in their fight is a good reference point for that.

                  Another interesting observation I had was also Conor-related. I think I was using him and stamina was getting low because of striking, and then a grappler, Ortega or whoever it was takes me down and I suddenly get that stamina boost and I'm like...uh, thanks, I guess? Which actually reminds me that if you do manage to tire someone out on the feet and then look to capitalise on it and exacerbate it by grappling them, you won't be able to really take advantage of it the way you should because of the multiple stamina bars.


                  Edit: wait, no, was Conor on top of Mendes? Or am I getting it mixed up with the Holloway fight?

                  Edit 2: and something I often find myself thinking since I watched Jacare vs. Gastelum is that for all his skills, Jacare doesn't have the energy to utilise it anymore. Full credit to Gastelum for his defensive efforts then but Jacare was just a victim of his age. Maybe that's a matter for the Stats Discussion thread but grappling doesn't always make things easier for you, even if it's your supposed forte.


                  I mean, we could easily rectify that disparity with a bottom and top grappling stat. Taking Mendes down results in a greater decrease. That’s actually an incentive to take wrestlers down to demoralize them. I actually really like that as a concept. May be hard to tune though.

                  Also, people really forget just how bad the mechanics in Fight Night Champion were. The only upsides were crisp and crunchy striking, perfect stamina system, “parrying” punches with a perfect timed block, many different fighting styles and stances that change your play significantly, and the [concept] of slipping punches through the guard. Everything else is garbage. Great concept; horrible gameplay.

                  In reality, getting punches through could be done with proper angles, but mostly it was randomly based on stats were the only efficient way to do it was repeatedly throwing power straights or going two hooks to the body and then to the head.

                  The movement was atrocious. Some people got really good but it feels like you’re in an ice skating rink. You slide even after letting go of the stick. It made it impossible for even me to angle and cut corners and sports fighting games are my specialty.

                  The striking system determined largely through randomness and fully leveled up punches. Any game with competitive play should strive for the illusion of randomness but with multiple features under the hood to make sure every outcome under a certain circumstance is the same. Every time. UFC 3 does this almost perfect, but needs changes in a few key areas.

                  And the absolutely most egregious error of them all, there is NO hit reaction unless you really crack someone. If I was to slip and hit a jab while my opponent was jabbing (which is one of the many real life counters that just don’t work/aren’t viable in the game) the opponent would feel no danger at all and could continue to punch and finish his combo with impunity.

                  FNC is a boxing game with the veneer of realism.

                  As a side note, the slip jab needs to be buffed so much more in UFC. It’s borderline useless in 3. Almost as bad as FNC. There is never a reason to use a slip jab in UFC 3.


                  Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

                  Comment

                  • Kingslayer04
                    MVP
                    • Dec 2017
                    • 1482

                    #354
                    Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

                    @RetractedMonkey

                    Can you elaborate on the potential demoralising feature? Taking Mendes down will result in a greater decrease of what? I'm asking because I'm really not sure about an actual feature which hurts grapplers just because they're on their back, I'm really not a fan by the sound of it.

                    The demoralisation part is very intangible and varies greatly from situation to situation. While no wrestler would like to be on their back instead of on top, they could often see that predicament as an opportunity to turn things around and get on top. Especially if they're fresh, the opponent is an inferior grappler, the fight's been going their way up until that point, etc. Also, Mendes would be significantly demoralised by being under a pure striker like Conor and less so if it's a good wrestler like himself. Just so many variables. I remember fans wondering before the fight if Conor could try taking down Khabib to surprise him and if he actually did that, I'm sure Khabib would be pissed but that's about the only result Conor would be able to achieve, as Khabib will flip him with the quickness and murder him (probably).

                    I'm asking because such a mechanic can be quite the slippery slope. You don't want to incentivise strikers taking down grapplers, at least I don't. I just envision very skilled (and maybe even moderately skilled) players exploiting the **** out of such a thing. So, if you insist on such a mechanic, which I'm not saying you do, could you elaborate with specific examples? I'd appreciate that.


                    Edit: yeah, and Khabib flooring Conor on the feet — I'm sure Conor feels demoralised because of it to this day, should such a thing be reflected in the videogame? Is it necessary? And I'm asking this as a proponent for realism.
                    Last edited by Kingslayer04; 07-02-2020, 08:22 AM.

                    Comment

                    • RyanFitzmagic
                      MVP
                      • Oct 2011
                      • 1959

                      #355
                      Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

                      I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I'd love to see some reaction animations automatically trigger during a fight, like a fighter shaking his head after blocking a strike, or nodding (like "Yeah, that was a good shot"), getting fired up, and/or daring their opponent to hit them again when they eat a strike. Obviously it should vary from fighter to fighter, with some unique animations. Could be cool.





                      I also think that if you're moving forward, your block should be severely compromised. You see it all the time IRL, where a fighter tries to push forward and they pay for it and eat a big shot. I know that the block breaks down faster when you're moving forward, but that's not even close to being the same as a susceptibility to taking a single hard shot when you're trying to bullrush into the pocket. Honestly, blocking is really too strong overall, but I'm sure that's been brought up already.

                      BTW, I haven't read the discussion happening before this post, but I just want to throw this out there-- I don't know if it's possible for Conor to be demoralized. If there was a Confidence rating, he'd be the only 100 in the game. Maybe Ronda before she lost to Holly. lol
                      Last edited by RyanFitzmagic; 07-02-2020, 05:19 PM.

                      Comment

                      • RetractedMonkey
                        MVP
                        • Dec 2017
                        • 1624

                        #356
                        Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

                        Originally posted by Kingslayer04
                        @RetractedMonkey

                        Can you elaborate on the potential demoralising feature? Taking Mendes down will result in a greater decrease of what? I'm asking because I'm really not sure about an actual feature which hurts grapplers just because they're on their back, I'm really not a fan by the sound of it.

                        The demoralisation part is very intangible and varies greatly from situation to situation. While no wrestler would like to be on their back instead of on top, they could often see that predicament as an opportunity to turn things around and get on top. Especially if they're fresh, the opponent is an inferior grappler, the fight's been going their way up until that point, etc. Also, Mendes would be significantly demoralised by being under a pure striker like Conor and less so if it's a good wrestler like himself. Just so many variables. I remember fans wondering before the fight if Conor could try taking down Khabib to surprise him and if he actually did that, I'm sure Khabib would be pissed but that's about the only result Conor would be able to achieve, as Khabib will flip him with the quickness and murder him (probably).

                        I'm asking because such a mechanic can be quite the slippery slope. You don't want to incentivise strikers taking down grapplers, at least I don't. I just envision very skilled (and maybe even moderately skilled) players exploiting the **** out of such a thing. So, if you insist on such a mechanic, which I'm not saying you do, could you elaborate with specific examples? I'd appreciate that.


                        Edit: yeah, and Khabib flooring Conor on the feet — I'm sure Conor feels demoralised because of it to this day, should such a thing be reflected in the videogame? Is it necessary? And I'm asking this as a proponent for realism.


                        I think all of these variables can be controlled with stats. If Mendes has a greater bottom game stat than Conor does a top game stat, Mendes would actually gain stamina and vice versa. It’s just an idea. Needs some tuning and may not even ever work.


                        Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

                        Comment

                        • Question_all
                          Banned
                          • Jul 2020
                          • 36

                          #357
                          Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

                          need-less volume in fights in the heavier weights

                          want-crossplay.

                          Comment

                          • sdpdude9
                            Rookie
                            • Sep 2017
                            • 448

                            #358
                            Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

                            Need more seamless transition between striking and grappling in particular, after knocking opponent down. Go to jump in guard to capitalize and there’s a noticeable amount of time before you can strike them on the ground and they’ve usually recovered already.

                            Comment

                            • GamingPractitioner
                              Rookie
                              • Apr 2016
                              • 188

                              #359
                              Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

                              Want: I would love to have stun/rocked animations like this one in the game. <iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/fwuYBHOASN1SqcOn2G" width="480" height="270" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/fwuYBHOASN1SqcOn2G">via GIPHY</a></p>

                              Comment

                              • johnmangala
                                MVP
                                • Apr 2016
                                • 4525

                                #360
                                Re: UFC 4: Needs vs. Wants

                                Need: Boxing mode

                                Now that Fury and Joshua are likely in, I want to see this.

                                They could go further and add different rule sets for a variety of gameplay. For example, stand and bang into kickboxing and Muay thai, sub mode into BJJ and wrestling, MMA into pride rules.

                                They could use these assets as a base for career and Dana white mode if in. Start out in any discipline and move into MMA. Or start in MMA and cross over into other rules.

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