As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

[aholbert32]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

Then...it's time to scap the old code and go back and fix it.

I would gladly pay for a game with subpar graphics that is a blast to play vs. an awesome looking game that gets repetitive and frustrating quickly.

Look at Player Unknown Battlegrounds...top seller on Steam for PC and the graphics are poor (still) vs. today's standards but the game play is wonderful and always different. Minecraft is another example.

I honestly would buy a game looking like Madden 2005 if it had all the stuff Deuce had in his CFM thread.

Most people wont though. Plus the reviews would be brutal if the game took a step back in graphical quality.

[roadman]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

Then...it's time to scap the old code and go back and fix it.

I would gladly pay for a game with subpar graphics that is a blast to play vs. an awesome looking game that gets repetitive and frustrating quickly.

Look at Player Unknown Battlegrounds...top seller on Steam for PC and the graphics are poor (still) vs. today's standards but the game play is wonderful and always different. Minecraft is another example.

I honestly would buy a game looking like Madden 2005 if it had all the stuff Deuce had in his CFM thread.

Agree, but I've heard scraping old code would take many years.

Also, not directed at Speedy, but in general, they won't take a 2-3 years off with the yearly license plus stockholders.

[Brightline]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

A couple of points.

1) I really don't know what "looking into it" means at this point. Its a recurring long standing issue. They advertised that they fixed legacy issues. How is this still a problem?

2) Maybe its just really hard to program AI for a football game. So much to consider, seemingly way more than other spots. Maybe EA's whole approach is wrong. Don't code AI to make decisions, track the decisions human players make and have AI mirror it. Is that possible?

[Speedy]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

Agree, but I've heard scraping old code would take many years.

They using the Frostbite engine though now? I am in programming but am not going to try and presume I understand what's inside Madden's code and the length of time it'd take to fix the issues we're seeing.

I do know that adding code on top of code is challenging (like they do with these "new features" in each edition of Madden); sometimes I see issues with a pre-dated code (before me) but it'd be too time consuming and/or not in the budget to fix what I know is wrong with it (or make it more efficient) so I leave it as is and just build on top of it. Perhaps they have layer upon layer upon layer of code that would have to be unpeeled. Again, that's a guess and I've truly no idea.

Either way...back to the OP's point of the thread, I'm not buying the game until I the 1-2 HRs worth of video (after release) proves to me that I'll enjoy it.

[Smallville102001]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

This is the thing that is keeping the game from being really good it is a big issue. Madden 15 was the worst no matter what you would do you would get like 12 sacks a game because the CPU just would not pass the ball or run when they should and so like 80% of the sacks came just because the CPU wouldn't get rid of the ball. It was a big issue for several reasons. 1 It lead to way to many sacks and that would kill drives and some times result in fumbles that wouldn't have happened if the CPU got rid of the ball. It also just looked very unrealistic and it made it so that when playing a QB that can run you would never have games were the CPU would have like 5 runs for 30-50 yards or any thing like that. It was also bad because in real life if QB's played like that you wouldn't see QB playing more then like 12 games a year as it results in CPU QB taking way to many hits that they don't really take.

Madden 16 it improved a lot as CPU wouldn't just take sacks any more they would get rid of the ball but the problem is the CPU would still not try to run at all and in 17 they still wouldn't. It as nothing to do with sacks any more that was a 15 issue the issue is that if you are playing a running QB you are never going to see them try to run and it loos really fake and bad when the CPU instead of trying to set up in the pocket and not get sacked to buy more time will just instead throw the ball out of bounds. No matter if you are playing Brady or Willison you are most likely going to see zero rush attempts. They are both going to just sit in the pocket and throw the ball out of bounds and never set up in the pocket or try to run or any thing. I also don't see this getting fixed in a patch has it has been a problem since at least madden 2015 and that makes me think it is not something that is easy to fix and could be fixed in a patch and if they haven't fixed it at all in 16 and 17 why would I think they would now.

[roadman]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

They using the Frostbite engine though now? I am in programming but am not going to try and presume I understand what's inside Madden's code and the length of time it'd take to fix the issues we're seeing.

I do know that adding code on top of code is challenging (like they do with these "new features" in each edition of Madden); sometimes I see issues with a pre-dated code (before me) but it'd be too time consuming and/or not in the budget to fix what I know is wrong with it (or make it more efficient) so I leave it as is and just build on top of it. Perhaps they have layer upon layer upon layer of code that would have to be unpeeled. Again, that's a guess and I've truly no idea.

Either way...back to the OP's point of the thread, I'm not buying the game until I the 1-2 HRs worth of video (after release) proves to me that I'll enjoy it.

That is exactly the way I heard it, almost 30 years of coding to unpeel in some cases.

[deu22ces]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

Agree, but I've heard scraping old code would take many years.

Then that's what they need to do. Are they really going to keep doing this for the rest of the entirety of Madden's life cycle?? You guys do realize that this is exactly what PS5 and whatever XBOX is next is going to be like, right? And the next round of systems after that...It's insane to keep putzing around with something that you know is flawed, will always be flawed, and will always hold you back from making anything great. I guarantee that the cost of 'resources' and time to band-aid this thing the past 10 years has far outreached the cost of 'resources' to replace it.

Give us modest upgrades for the next few years and work on a foundation of code during that time that is actually sustainable in today's technological environment. Someone said that this thread topic is 'nauseating', well so is listening to 'legacy' issues, 'resources', and 'time' as excuses for not having a game that belongs in 2017. Madden makes a fantastic still photo shop. Yeah, graphics! If only that was all a football game was about.

[roadman]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

Then that's what they need to do. Are they really going to keep doing this for the rest of the entirety of Madden's life cycle?? You guys do realize that this is exactly what PS5 and whatever XBOX is next is going to be like, right? And the next round of systems after that...It's insane to keep putzing around with something that you know is flawed, will always be flawed, and will always hold you back from making anything great. I guarantee that the cost of 'resources' and time to band-aid this thing the past 10 years has far outreached the cost of 'resources' to replace it.

Give us modest upgrades for the next few years and work on a foundation of code during that time that is actually sustainable in today's technological environment. Someone said that this thread topic is 'nauseating', well so is listening to 'legacy' issues, 'resources', and 'time' as excuses for not having a game that belongs in 2017. Madden makes a fantastic still photo shop. Yeah, graphics! If only that was all a football game was about.

Depends on EA's management on how they will go with that.

Some people already won't fork over 60 bucks for modest improvements.

I won't comment about the dynamics of the thread.

Just hoping there will be a fix for the CPU AI QB sooner rather than later.

[jmurphy31]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

I would love if they could fix all the legacy issues....neither of those things will happen.

Also there is no guarantee that rebuilding is the answer. EA has taken off years to rebuild Live and it still is below average.

I agree they would never take 2 or 3 years off to rebuild the game from the ground up. if they were going to do that it would of been with the launch of the new consoles a few years ago.

Though, they did secretly work on long shot for the past 3 or 4 years and gave us limited CFM updates. EA could technically work on a new engine while just giving us a new game with updated rosters and a new feature or 2 every year.

[ehh]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

EA's devs can't win when it comes to the CPU QB, it's as simple as that. It's either Robo QB, throwing the ball away too quickly or standing in the pocket too long and taking sacks.

I guarantee you that if this gets tuned it'll turn into NCAA 14 where QBs throw the ball away as soon as pass rusher gets past their man. This was one of the biggest issues I had with NCAA 14 - the CPU QB was omnipotent when it came to detecting the rush, you had those plays where they'd receive the snap in a shotgun formation and immediately turn and fire it out of bounds because there was a blitzer who was unaccounted for and would have a free run at the QB. Side note but I love that there's never been intentional grounding for the CPU because if there was it'd lead to either 15 sacks a game or 15 intentional groundings.

Unfortunately, there is no perfect answer and I doubt there ever will be unless the game is rebuilt from scratch. I'm still going to buy the game because I get well worth $60 of entertainment from it, warts and all.

[roadman]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

EA's devs can't win when it comes to the CPU QB, it's as simple as that. It's either Robo QB, throwing the ball away too quickly or standing in the pocket too long and taking sacks.

I guarantee you that if this gets tuned it'll turn into NCAA 14 where QBs throw the ball away as soon as pass rusher gets past their man. This was one of the biggest issues I had with NCAA 14 - the CPU QB was omnipotent when it came to detecting the rush, you had those plays where they'd receive the snap in a shotgun formation and immediately turn and fire it out of bounds because there was a blitzer who was unaccounted for and would have a free run at the QB. Side note but I love that there's never been intentional grounding for the CPU because if there was it'd lead to either 15 sacks a game or 15 intentional groundings.

Unfortunately, there is no perfect answer and I doubt there ever will be unless the game is rebuilt from scratch. I'm still going to buy the game because I get well worth $60 of entertainment from it, warts and all.

Ehh, I think Khaliib and you are thinking the same.

Khaliib from a different thread:

Yeah, the Tunables are very tricky.

It may be due to a Targeting Threat behind the LOS not being established to trigger AI to scramble with possible targets being engaged in blocking interactions.

The other side that could be disasterous is that all AI QB's start scrambling outside there Player Type. (had this issue in NCAA 14)

Altar the Scrambling Tunable wrong, then possibly monkey up Def LOS attack Logic also.

It can get very tricky and possibly create a catch-22 scenario.

[Smallville102001]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

It really is frustrating after madden 07 during ps2/xbox/gamecube gen madden 16 was the only madden I really liked played up to I think like season 5 in franchise mode. Madden 08,09,10,11,12,13,15,17 I bought and never even got threw one season as the games all had at least 1 game breaking flaw. That is 8 games I wasted my money on. All those games I got at just about full price for to other then 17. So really I wasted my money around $500 that is like the price for a system. I have just been desperate for a good football game again but I have had it to much money I have wasted. Madden during ps2 still does some things better then madden does now. CPU QB play was better and CPU clock management was also better and franchise mode to. Its just hard to go back to madden on ps2 because of the graphics but at the same time it is hard to play new maddens when some of the old maddens still do things better then madden now. Madden 10 was a big improvement but still not good. Madden 15 was the first madden that did any thing better outside of graphics then madden on ps2. Madden 16 was the only good madden after ps2 and a better game then 17. I almost think it was a mistake getting rid of 16 and getting 17. If there was another football game still around I think madden would be a much better game right now. We really need another NFL game around to push madden right now.

[jmurphy31]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

Back to actual topic. Does it look bad when the CPU AI stands like a statue and takes a sack after a long period of time. Yes. Does it look even worse when they scramble out have either the end zone or 30 plus yards ahead of them and they throw it across the field of play. Yes.

I havent watched all the videos but I would actually like to see statistics on all the videos shown so far and how many had
1. a sack that looked real, time wise.
2. What % of pass attempts actually end up in the stand around and take a sack sequence.

If the stand around sack only happens 1 or 2 times a game I could probably live with it...beats the automatic throw away.

But if they are using similar code from the past 30 years. Wonder if they turned off the take off run trait (or whatever it may be called in programming terms) and maybe they can make it work again.

I really think doing one thing for the CFM offline crowd in the first patch or tuner update would really go along way in the mind of that crowd.

[bucky60]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

Feels like the same old process of Madden's devs running up against the limitations of the code base, and after progressing in some areas, are just caught in tuning hell. Fix or improve one aspect of the gameplay and it breaks another, or causes a reversion bug, and most of your already short dev time is spent on playing whack-a-mole over gameplay balance versus implementation.

I have no doubt Rex and co. are doing their best, I just feel like Madden is, at its essence, an especially wheezy and crotchety old jumble of code.

Good code, bad code, either way, the most difficult part of a sports game is getting the real-time aspect correct and balanced. Even with good code, one change likely effects the balance of something else. I'm more patient with the game-play aspect (though people have the right to bring up it's shortcomings).

The part that frustrates me the most is that a Franchise should be the easiest part of a sports game to code. You still have some balancing issues, but the issues aren't nearly as complex as the real time game-play. And yet we still have this shallow, fisher-price franchise.

[Smallville102001]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

I agree they would never take 2 or 3 years off to rebuild the game from the ground up. if they were going to do that it would of been with the launch of the new consoles a few years ago.

Though, they did secretly work on long shot for the past 3 or 4 years and gave us limited CFM updates. EA could technically work on a new engine while just giving us a new game with updated rosters and a new feature or 2 every year.

Yeah the only way they would take 2-3 years off would be if its sales were really bad like nba live sales had gotten. Skipping a year or 2 would just cost them to much money in sales. The problem is even though madden sales have dropped of it still sales well over all why spend a lot of money to make something if it is going to sale no matter what.