As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

[49UNCFan]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

True gamebreaker, may cancel my pre order

[extremeskins04]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

EA Play consisted mostly of H2H Play, but I did squeeze in a couple of series before another jumped on the sticks.

The big difference I see between what was played to what I see in the vids, is the coverage was very tight on pass plays.
- you couldn't wait until a guy was open to throw to him
- Passing windows were small
- crossing routes were difficult to complete for gains
- User QB's were forced to step up, couldn't just run outside tackles and outrun
- Stamina during gameplay was very pronounced
- Speed of the game was slower

They've heard the displeasures about the change in gameplay since EA Play, so many will see on Thursday what's what.

One thing for sure, the "Sim" community better get their act together and come together on things they would like tuned per Sim Play Style.

So splintered right now as a group.

Like other than beating down the doors at EA, I don't know how the "Sim community" can do anything else to tell Rex, Clint, and whoever else that we're unhappy that we still have the same broken mechanics year after year.

We've been very vocal about the QB AI awareness, the RB juking issue, the lack of a challenge system that works, the broken and non-working intentional grounding penalty that never gets called. I don't include the Zone defense issue because we're not even 100% sure what's going on with that yet.

Wishlist threads, Bug report threads, Constant tweets to the devs, a very popular, in-depth and intuitive thread by Deuce??

I don't understand the meaning behind "we better get our act together". If I won the $500 million lottery I'll just pay them to make the game right, but I can't. I'm so broke I can't pay attention these days.

What else can we do?

[jmarcguy]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

I'm waiting until I hear some impressions. If it's not much different than 17, I'm getting the older game I think. I guess the CPU QB was just as bad?


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[BadAssHskr]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

What do you guys consider a rebuild? A graphical one? Animations? AI? Features?

I think you guys dont realize how expensive that would be even if it was just animations.

What you guys are suggesting is that EA pour millions more into development (Mocap sessions and talent/QA/Employee hours to add the animations to the game) and lose millions either through not selling a NFL game for a few years or selling a roster update.

All for a game that millions of people love the way it is. As someone said earlier, the reason they skipped years with Live is because people stopped buying the game. They had no other choice. That isnt the case here. ****, the people who are most annoyed by these issues cant find the strength to buy the game used.

You mention in a post, the core of the game. Get a good base, and my previous statement holds.

If the game needs recoded, take the time to do it, but give us a game they can progressively ship updates for the rebuild cycle that keeps the game fresh and up to date.

I honestly have to believe they have a new game being built, just not being utilized, and i also believe they have a version of ncaa updated and running for when the time comes.

[johnnyg713]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

EA Play consisted mostly of H2H Play, but I did squeeze in a couple of series before another jumped on the sticks.

The big difference I see between what was played to what I see in the vids, is the coverage was very tight on pass plays.
- you couldn't wait until a guy was open to throw to him
- Passing windows were small
- crossing routes were difficult to complete for gains
- User QB's were forced to step up, couldn't just run outside tackles and outrun
- Stamina during gameplay was very pronounced
- Speed of the game was slower

They've heard the displeasures about the change in gameplay since EA Play, so many will see on Thursday what's what.

One thing for sure, the "Sim" community better get their act together and come together on things they would like tuned per Sim Play Style.

So splintered right now as a group.

Let me ask you this. Did you play only the Xbox one X version of the game? Did they have xbox one and PS4 versions of the game also? I'm willing to bet, the reason why gameplay was so different at EA play is because it wasn't the xbox one/ps4 version of the game..... Which would also explain why they didn't want people filming.

[Speedy]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

Why would people expect better AI with a graphics engine change? Also, people are asking for a rebuild and thats what my point was addressing. Adding new animations and physics on top of the current system isnt a rebuild. FYI, there are new animations. There are new physics related to the running game.

Now a rebuild is expensive. Completely new mo-cap for every position group is expensive. You want RBs/WRs to have signature running styles....thats more mocap and thats expensive. More DL/OL interactions....more expensive mocap.
A complete rebuild means they probably have to sit out releasing a game for 2 yrs. EA swims in money? Well not after it decides not to release its second highest selling sports game for 1-2 years.

Me personally...I'm not as concerned about animations or mode features. I'm interested in gameplay AI. When I run the ball, I don't want my LT to suddenly get see a phantom bee and start running backwards 10 yards or my LB just stand still as if he's playing Simon Says with my opponent.

Joking aside, things like suction blocking or what the OP is talking about, statue QBs...that doesn't scream animations or a huge budget in mo-caps, gameplay features, etc.. Simply code to define what action the QB should take - maybe (thinking out loud here), a calculation to determine what the probability is that the QB would be hit given the attributes of the defensive line vs. the offensive line at each frame and then bump that against the AWR of the QB to determine IF he should move (and subsequent calculations to determine where). Again, that's my simple mind that I know doesn't answer nor solve the more complicated code within Madden.

That's not millions of dollars worth of a budget but I'm sure would constitute an investment of time for EA's current programmers - or more additional workforce. Either way...I do agree...there is a cost involved that EA would have to include in scope when mapping out the next year's iteration and vision as it's likely not a quick fix like most here think it is.

[khaliib]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

Like other than beating down the doors at EA, I don't know how the "Sim community" can do anything else to tell Rex, Clint, and whoever else that we're unhappy that we still have the same broken mechanics year after year.

We've been very vocal about the QB AI awareness, the RB juking issue, the lack of a challenge system that works, the broken and non-working intentional grounding penalty that never gets called. I don't include the Zone defense issue because we're not even 100% sure what's going on with that yet.

Wishlist threads, Bug report threads, Constant tweets to the devs, a very popular, in-depth and intuitive thread by Deuce??

I don't understand the meaning behind "we better get our act together". If I won the $500 million lottery I'll just pay them to make the game right, but I can't. I'm so broke I can't pay attention these days.

What else can we do?

Competitive/Tourney side is more uniform dealing with the things they want done to the game and most importantly, they in general approach the devs about the issues with some common sense, that's why things get done for them.

Just read "20" post to the devs from "Sim" gamers from any medium the devs visit and it will be very evident what I meant.

Even Millennium did a thread on the very subject so that if as OP suggest, in order to accomplish the change this community desires, there must be a unified voice.

We (Sim) have the ability to have the game tuned to reflect our desires dealing with concerns such as the OP, but if we keep coming at them via the same manner/tone thus far, very little is going to get accomplished to our liking.

I really feel this forum community has some of the most creative members of any forum that's on the internet and really believe this could be the lead think-tank that gaming developers can visit for ideas/ways to push the games to greater heights.

Deuce's write up is the perfect example of the type of structured feedback that catches their eyes.

If we just directed our focus towards helping each other present our issues/ideal fixes in the similiar manner, so much would get done to the game on our behalf, so much faster.

[JoshC1977]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

One thing for sure, the "Sim" community better get their act together and come together on things they would like tuned per Sim Play Style.

So splintered right now as a group.

Yup, I totally agree because the sim style gameplay audience is heterogeneous. You got true "sim heads" who will not only want to play by sim rules but also play sim by not trying to exploit weaknesses of the game engine. You got more casual people who want to play by authentic NFL rules but will want a little more laid-back experience. Then you got people who have a stick-skill driven gameplay style that is closer to the competitive gaming style but they will want to have injuries, penalties, ratings-effects, etc that you don't get in the competitive gaming mode.

I feel like that lack in homogeneity (relative to the target audiences of the other two styles) will make the sim style the most difficult of the three to balance for EA.

[nuttyrich]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

I don't know where I posted, bit I saw the same thing..QB had a great amount of time.

I automatically assumed by the game play it was the new target passing that was causing this.

If you watch it takes time to develop, where as in freak NFL you don't have the time, not even close.

I also saw lack of sacks, is better blocking, maybe too good.

I only play on P.C but I feel for you guys, I played Madden years ago, stopped playing once it went next gen.

Every year I see the great community here, always asking for changes, yet always falls on deaf ears.

I guess you're allowed to do this since you paid a billion dollars for the license.

It's like a crappy PPV, they know people will buy it and keep buying so why change?

I remember playing NCAA college, playing that until Madden came out then trading it in for $30 towards Madden.

Those are the good old days.

You guys need to demand changes, this can only change if you Don't buy.

I love football and have just like all of you, o know it's hard.. But they keep preying on that same weakness.

"Well there's no other game, what choice do I have"

Only suggestion I can make is let the sales tank wait until Black Friday or a great sale.

They will know we're serious when it hits their share holders.

🙏🍻👍

Sent from my FRD-L04 using Operation Sports mobile app

[bad_philanthropy]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

Yup, I totally agree because the sim style gameplay audience is heterogeneous. You got true "sim heads" who will not only want to play by sim rules but also play sim by not trying to exploit weaknesses of the game engine. You got more casual people who want to play by authentic NFL rules but will want a little more laid-back experience. Then you got people who have a stick-skill driven gameplay style that is closer to the competitive gaming style but they will want to have injuries, penalties, ratings-effects, etc that you don't get in the competitive gaming mode.

I feel like that lack in homogeneity (relative to the target audiences of the other two styles) will make the sim style the most difficult of the three to balance for EA.

That may be true to an extent, but I think something like Deuce's CFM post was pretty universally acclaimed here.

I don't even think a lot of the complaints and ideas here necessarily correspond to an obtusely hardcore simulation gameplay end, or even represent disparate notions of what needs to be fixed in the game.

A lot of stuff posters seem to discuss is about correcting, updating, or re-doing legacy components of the game, and legacy issues like QB ai and animations not progressing (and maybe even regressing in some cases) over several generations of consoles now.

There are also lot of small details that slip through the cracks over and over, like the wind being broken in CFM every year, stamina and auto-subs, unrealistic weather with the crowd wearing shorts and sun visors in Chicago in December, features disappearing, etc...

I bet most here think those sorts of details represent a package of important things that correspond to "sim," by enhancing the overall value and detail of the offline user experience—especially when it comes to CFM.

I think that would be a point of emphasis for me at least. Start paying attention to the little things users bring up, and treat them with importance as well. Gameplay is important and so are the other small details of the game.

It may be the reality of developing a game like Madden that it's prohibitive to address a wide array of issues and ideas that don't seem game breaking (like an export that borks tournament play), but at the same time it's kind of tough to expect the "sim" community to channel so many wants from so many parts of the game into a clear consensus when there are so many legitimate issues. I mean maybe we're close here with something needing to be done about QB's. It's one of the most intriguing positions in all of sport, and it's not all that fun or interesting to play as in Madden, and it certainly isn't interesting to play against cpu QB's in the game, and QB play also doesn't look or behave like a contemporary sports game should.

Additionally, as far as sim gameplay, it feels like the developers already have a good grasp. They had QB inaccuracy in Madden 16 and patched it out, from Khalib's assessment of the gameplay at EA Play, they had a great idea of what the sim user wants, and they've apparently burned that down for whatever reason. It feels like a consensus around here that the EA Play version sounded like the right direction.

An explanation of why they drastically changed the EA Play version, and if we could get a "simulation mode" tuner of that game to try as a community.

[fballturkey]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play

Why would people expect better AI with a graphics engine change? Also, people are asking for a rebuild and thats what my point was addressing. Adding new animations and physics on top of the current system isnt a rebuild. FYI, there are new animations. There are new physics related to the running game.

Now a rebuild is expensive. Completely new mo-cap for every position group is expensive. You want RBs/WRs to have signature running styles....thats more mocap and thats expensive. More DL/OL interactions....more expensive mocap.
A complete rebuild means they probably have to sit out releasing a game for 2 yrs. EA swims in money? Well not after it decides not to release its second highest selling sports game for 1-2 years.

That isn't necessarily true. They could also form two dev teams, one working on next year's release and another (larger) team working on the rebuild. Team 2 would likely be working on it for over 2 years though; making a football game from the ground up is hard. It's my understanding that something like this happens now with different teams working on different releases concurrently (and it definitely happened with long shot.)

That being said it would still be prohibitively expensive and they've got no real reason to do it other than if sales slip and they think they can get them back with a rebuild. Or if dealing with the detritus gets so time and energy consuming that it makes more sense to just rip it all out. I don't see either of those things happening though.

[capa]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

Like other than beating down the doors at EA, I don't know how the "Sim community" can do anything else to tell Rex, Clint, and whoever else that we're unhappy that we still have the same broken mechanics year after year.

We've been very vocal about the QB AI awareness, the RB juking issue, the lack of a challenge system that works, the broken and non-working intentional grounding penalty that never gets called. I don't include the Zone defense issue because we're not even 100% sure what's going on with that yet.

Wishlist threads, Bug report threads, Constant tweets to the devs, a very popular, in-depth and intuitive thread by Deuce??

I don't understand the meaning behind "we better get our act together". If I won the $500 million lottery I'll just pay them to make the game right, but I can't. I'm so broke I can't pay attention these days.

What else can we do?

I agree...I think I saw Rex say in an interview or a twitter that they do not really look at the wish lists and bug lists posted on sites...the way they get their feedback is through social media (twitter, etc). So the annual exercise of posting 120 page Wish List and Bug threads is probably a wasted effort.

But I do agree...all the information has been out there for years. It's no secret what the sim (and other) players want. The bottom line is EA turns a deaf ear to it for the most part. They don't fix what we want...they fix what they want based on complexity, budget, resource availability, and overall effect on the entire gaming community.

C

[cityofchampions]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

I heard that Live was horrible, from ones that have played the demo.

You heard that from 2K homers. I mean no offense, but it is actually realistic, unlike 2k which is purely animation driven. Anyway this is off topic. So I will stop there.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[jfsolo]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play.

That may be true to an extent, but I think something like Deuce's CFM post was pretty universally acclaimed here.

I don't even think a lot of the complaints and ideas here necessarily correspond to an obtusely hardcore simulation gameplay end, or even represent disparate notions of what needs to be fixed in the game.

A lot of stuff posters seem to discuss is about correcting, updating, or re-doing legacy components of the game, and legacy issues like QB ai and animations not progressing (and maybe even regressing in some cases) over several generations of consoles now.

There are also lot of small details that slip through the cracks over and over, like the wind being broken in CFM every year, stamina and auto-subs, unrealistic weather with the crowd wearing shorts and sun visors in Chicago in December, features disappearing, etc...

I bet most here think those sorts of details represent a package of important things that correspond to "sim," by enhancing the overall value and detail of the offline user experience—especially when it comes to CFM.

I think that would be a point of emphasis for me at least. Start paying attention to the little things users bring up, and treat them with importance as well. Gameplay is important and so are the other small details of the game.

It may be the reality of developing a game like Madden that it's prohibitive to address a wide array of issues and ideas that don't seem game breaking (like an export that borks tournament play), but at the same time it's kind of tough to expect the "sim" community to channel so many wants from so many parts of the game into a clear consensus when there are so many legitimate issues. I mean maybe we're close here with something needing to be done about QB's. It's one of the most intriguing positions in all of sport, and it's not all that fun or interesting to play as in Madden, and it certainly isn't interesting to play against cpu QB's in the game, and QB play also doesn't look or behave like a contemporary sports game should.

Additionally, as far as sim gameplay, it feels like the developers already have a good grasp. They had QB inaccuracy in Madden 16 and patched it out, from Khalib's assessment of the gameplay at EA Play, they had a great idea of what the sim user wants, and they've apparently burned that down for whatever reason. It feels like a consensus around here that the EA Play version sounded like the right direction.

An explanation of why they drastically changed the EA Play version, and if we could get a "simulation mode" tuner of that game to try as a community.

This is a great post.

[aholbert32]

Re: As a community we cannot accept the current CPU QB play

That isn't necessarily true. They could also form two dev teams, one working on next year's release and another (larger) team working on the rebuild. Team 2 would likely be working on it for over 2 years though; making a football game from the ground up is hard. It's my understanding that something like this happens now with different teams working on different releases concurrently (and it definitely happened with long shot.)

That being said it would still be prohibitively expensive and they've got no real reason to do it other than if sales slip and they think they can get them back with a rebuild. Or if dealing with the detritus gets so time and energy consuming that it makes more sense to just rip it all out. I don't see either of those things happening though.

Thats my point. We arent talking about this in a perfect world scenario. In a perfect world, EA would double the size of their dev team and make a rebuild a priority for years in the future. In order to do a rebuild under the current economic realities, they would have to do roster updates at the most for a couple of years. Similar to what they do when they produce Madden for last gen.

I agree that this would never happen though.