How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

[xCoachDx]

Re: How do you think EA could better differentiate QB play?

I lightly alluded to this in the EA Sports College Football expectations thread, but I would love to see Tiburon add more game mechanics around the mental side of quarterback play. There are a few areas which are dramatically under-represented right now which could stand to see a refresh: play calling, snap count, pre-snap adjustments, and ability to make post-snap reads.

A smattering of ideas to this end:

- Gate the current audible system behind the AWR rating and adjust the play call system in turn. Adjust the current play call system to require two calls in the huddle; a primary play call and a Kill / Can play call. By default, a quarterback (user-controlled or not) would only have the option to swap between the default play call and the Kill / Can play call at the line. Ideally, this system would also support formation shifts built into the primary play call. An example play call might be Zebra (11 personnel) Gun Empty Y-Trips Rt (original formation) Shift To Gun Y-Trips Rt (shift call), Y-Stick (called play) Can Zone Read (Kill play). Higher-AWR QBs would be afforded access to more audibles, similar to what functionality exists now.

- Add game mechanics around the idea of snap counts; in addition to a play call, you also call a snap count in the huddle. Add Superstar abilities around snap counts; "Commanding Voice" prevents offensive false starts, "Hard Count" increases defensive offsides penalties, "Megaphone" prevents audibles and pre-snap adjustment calls from failing during road games, etc. etc.

- Add the idea of offensive system verbiage into the game, with certain benefits and drawbacks of each system. Give each system benefits and drawbacks. For example, an Erhardt-Perkins offensive system might require an extremely high-AWR players across the board to run, but a QB in this system would have the power to call whatever route combinations he wants at the line of scrimmage with simple keywords. This is what Tom Brady did in New England for two decades. His Pro Reads Zone ability could be subsequently adjusted to automatically call a beater route combination for whatever coverage concept the defense calls, as opposed to merely highlighting the first open receiver.

- Apply a tag to quarterbacks who spent their time in college playing in simplified offensive systems and limit their ability to make certain throws on pass plays. For example, one of the main knocks on Panthers rookie passer Matt Corral was that he played in an RPO-heavy system which did not ask him to perform full-field reads. Add a tag to him which, while his AWR is below a certain threshold, hides the passing icons for all non-backfield receivers on the side of the formation opposite the primary route, and (if they are still in the game) prevents him from calling motion or hot routes to any receiver on that side of the formation. Once his AWR progresses above whatever threshold value is set, the tag is removed and the passing icons on the backside of the play no longer disappear. (This limiting of QB vision would be a more authentic solution for limited QB vision than the old Vision Cone, which I have stated many many times was terrible and IMO it should stay buried and dead).

- Dump hot routes entirely. Do not allow users to draw plays in the dirt at the line of scrimmage.

2K did similar to this back in the day. You could could hold RT when selecting a formation and that would be the formation you come out in, but then would shift when you were at the line. Also, you could only audible within your formation, but you could select “on the fly” audibles that would be set for that play only.

If they can do it, EA can d…. Well. You know what i mean.

[ChaseB]

Re: How do you think EA could better differentiate QB play?

I'm bumping this as I think I want to make it a front page article.

[canes21]

Re: How do you think EA could better differentiate QB play?

Piggybacking this line of thinking, definitely. Like, if the QB has a 65 or lower rating, they see the WR icons only a split second after the snap. 66 to 75 rating, they see primary WR for 3 seconds and two other WR for 1 second only. 76-89 rating, they see primary WR the whole time, secondary WR for 3 seconds, slot WR and HB in the flat for 1 second. 90+ rating, they see every icon the whole time.



THAT would be huge and change the game.

I would be fine with this type of system, honestly, but I feel the average Madden player would be so loud about disliking this that it would be done away with after 1 year.

I do think to differentiate user QBs more you need to do more things like this that are more gamey, and I can live with that.

I'd even be fine if your QBs awareness being low meant that you didn't see icons pre-snap and then when you snapped the ball it was random what button each receiver was. This is along the lines with what you're going for, but may be potentially more acceptable with the average Madden player?

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[ChaseB]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

First post now updated with the article, thanks to canes21 for starting the thread!

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Following the ratings reveals for the QBs in Madden 23, OS user canes21 started a thread...

Written By: Chase Becotte

Click here to view the article.

Some of these ideas are too much. Reducing how many routes a QB can throw is a bad idea, because that forces a certain scheme in terms of progression, while not every team will look at the same play art and have the same progressions.

A much better—and dare I say, more realistic—option, is to just have icons disappear shortly after the snap. Or if you want to simulate pre-snap confusion, make some of them invisible. But don’t eliminate them from possibility of being thrown.


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Another thing is to simulate “see it, throw it” quarterbacking (where the young QB will hesitate and not throw with anticipation) is to add in an additional animation of the QB turning his head and looking before the throw. You could still have fast releases when the ball is THROWN; but adding some sort of animation delay could simulate slower processing. Maybe patting the ball or double clutching it could work as well.

[Caulfield]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Some of these ideas are too much. Reducing how many routes a QB can throw is a bad idea, because that forces a certain scheme in terms of progression, while not every team will look at the same play art and have the same progressions.

A much better—and dare I say, more realistic—option, is to just have icons disappear shortly after the snap. Or if you want to simulate pre-snap confusion, make some of them invisible. But don’t eliminate them from possibility of being thrown.

I thought it a pretty swell idea, you should still be allowed to throw to the receiver w/o the icon, it just falls on the user to make up for the qb's deficiency in seeing the icon by the user having to remember who the iconless receivers are and which icon corresponds to which receiver

[Momoney168]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

There could be a tie in with AWR that effects the OL and how the QB perceives pressure. A QB with a low AWR could lower the OL collective AWR making blitz picks more difficult/less effective.

There’s already a SS ability that allows pass rushers to threaten the QB while blocked. You could basically reverse that to make the young QB play like they are under pressure more than they are. Would also bring in the TUP rating more.

A lot of the feedback from the beta was around the increased pass rush, specifically from a 4 man rush. I think increased pressure, making the TUP rating come into play more often would separate the weaker QBs from the stars.


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[Broncos86]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Some of these ideas are too much. Reducing how many routes a QB can throw is a bad idea, because that forces a certain scheme in terms of progression, while not every team will look at the same play art and have the same progressions.

A much better—and dare I say, more realistic—option, is to just have icons disappear shortly after the snap. Or if you want to simulate pre-snap confusion, make some of them invisible. But don’t eliminate them from possibility of being thrown.

So the one thing I didn't like about this, and why I went the route I did in my suggestion, is that simply fading the icons away still puts the "awareness" ultimately into the player's hands instead of the QB. That was ultimately the goal: how do you differentiate the QB? I shouldn't be able to take a rookie QB and simply overcome his lack of awareness simply because I'm good at remembering which receivers have which icons (at least, I feel that way).

And in Madden, I think that's where you expand on designating the primary receiver (which we can already do).

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

So the one thing I didn't like about this, and why I went the route I did in my suggestion, is that simply fading the icons away still puts the "awareness" ultimately into the player's hands instead of the QB. That was ultimately the goal: how do you differentiate the QB? I shouldn't be able to take a rookie QB and simply overcome his lack of awareness simply because I'm good at remembering which receivers have which icons (at least, I feel that way).

And in Madden, I think that's where you expand on designating the primary receiver (which we can already do).

At that point, however, you might as well play as a coach.

[Broncos86]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

At that point, however, you might as well play as a coach.

It's a point of view, of course. I think it really just comes down to how you want to play the game, what control you have, etc. I don't necessarily think either is "wrong," just simply a POV on how you see the game being played.

Of course, as pointed out in the article, the competitive / online crowd is going to see ANY change that takes function away from the gamer as extremely negative.

I don't agree with the sentiment of "you might as well play as a coach" because I think that comment really downplays the interest in playing with players whose attributes impact gameplay more. I can also see counter arguments against it, such as "but as a ball carrier, I still choose where I'm going, so ball carrier vision doesn't matter then." So, again, I see the arguments.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

It's a point of view, of course. I think it really just comes down to how you want to play the game, what control you have, etc. I don't necessarily think either is "wrong," just simply a POV on how you see the game being played.

Of course, as pointed out in the article, the competitive / online crowd is going to see ANY change that takes function away from the gamer as extremely negative.

I don't agree with the sentiment of "you might as well play as a coach" because I think that comment really downplays the interest in playing with players whose attributes impact gameplay more. I can also see counter arguments against it, such as "but as a ball carrier, I still choose where I'm going, so ball carrier vision doesn't matter then." So, again, I see the arguments.

As such I think the better way to do it is to (a) give an accuracy penalty if you’re not facing the WR (and have a three part cone where you look left, straight or right, but invisible and shown by body angle), and (b) have an additional small animation time to get set before the release begins after the button is pressed. Yes, you can compensate by throwing earlier, but it’s still a penalty you have to deal with.


EDIT—see my other post below. You can better simulate what inexperienced QBs actually do (hesitate, throw without anticipation, that is, they are “see it, throw it” QBs) without physically limiting where users can throw. All you have to do is hide the icons PRESNAP, and then post-snap have the icons be randomly distributed. So the user cannot count on X or Y being the middle WR, but instead will have to hesitate post-snap to see where the icons are, and “see it, throw it” post-snap just like most rookies.

You may force a user to focus entirely on only one target doing this, because they won’t know what the button is pre-snap, and rookie QBs absolutely stare down one guy and often choose where there going pre-snap without reading a defense.

[GoJags904]

Re: How do you think EA could better differentiate QB play?

No, you are misunderstanding what I am saying. The protection concepts and tools are indeed already in Madden 22; my point was the CPU doesn’t demonstrate knowledge of these mechanics to use them to set up more advanced protections.

There’s a lot of authentic pass blocking behavior that is already in Madden. Big-on-big and nearest-threat principles are in the game. Jet protection is in the game. Scat protection is in the game. 5-0 protection is in the game. Running back 2-read behavior is in the game. Four-man slide protection is in the game. These are all NFL concepts and protections used every Sunday, and they are all represented in Madden. Tiburon could add more, absolutely, but until we get E-T stunts, read blitzes, and more advanced defensive mechanics adding more here is arguably unnecessary.

Most of the time, Madden handles how to set the protection for the offense as best it can (because again, OL play is arcane to the average football fan), based on offensive formation, defensive front, and player ratings. For a user to manually set a specific protection, it is often required to use a combination of ID The Mike, slide protection, and formation shifts all in one play to set up that one protection correctly, but this is all very possible in the Madden 22 game you and I both have right now. The pass blocking animations aren’t great in M22 (especially the lack of depth of the tackles in five and seven step dropback passes), but the acts of picking targets and passing off rushers are on point.

The note I was making about the CPU was specifically that they don’t do these manual actions. The CPU lives with whatever Mike the OL IDs, cannot call a pass blocking hot route for a back or a tight end, cannot call a slide protection (it relies solely on the OL doing that post-snap based on the Mike ID at formation set), and so on.

As an aside - given that the Madden NFL team literally has a former NFL offensive lineman as one of its most senior members, not to mention access to coaching materials none of us are privy to, I am inclined to believe they have more institutional knowledge about how OL play should play out than us folks, none of us who ever played offensive line in the NFL.

Additionally: though I wasn’t talking about run blocking, the run block schemes and targeting for Power-O, Counter, Trap, Toss, Crack Toss, Inside Zone, Outside Zone, and Split Zone all work great to fantastic. The run blocking in Madden 22 is easily better than any other football game that has ever existed, it’s honestly the only remarkable component of the game IMO.



Again, you aren’t understanding what I am saying. Most people don’t know what Jet / Scat / Solid / 5-0 / Lucy / Rita / Lasso / etc. protection calls are. Most people don’t know the implications of ID’ing the Mike. Most people don’t understand how Power-O blocking changes based on the surface the defense presents. You are kidding yourself if you think the average NFL football fan understands offensive line play beyond “Von Miller has beat that tackle like a drum”.

I understand where you are coming from now. My main gripe is more towards cpu functionality instead of user input. The controls are there for us, but the challenge of the cpu utilizing these same features to their advantage is basically non-existent.

I love the invisible icons idea tied to awareness tho. Especially using it to limit QBs who can only read half the field etc. I always have a spectator franchise going, and this would definitely add life to that way of play also.

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[drugsbunny]

When the QB hikes the ball, his primary receiver is lettered as it should be, his level of awareness would determine what next receiver button will become visible and how fast. They should also have randomness to what receiver will be assigned what button. With a Tom Brady, you'll know pretty much what button what receiver will have. With low awareness QB's it may switch up what button a receiver will be assigned. The more your awareness increases, the more it becomes consistent.

[Big Bankhead]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

This was a very well written article and I support every idea listed, especially the awareness threshold flag. That would definitely separate the elite from the bench warmers. It’d make it more challenging as well if your franchise qb goes down from injury.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

It's a point of view, of course. I think it really just comes down to how you want to play the game, what control you have, etc. I don't necessarily think either is "wrong," just simply a POV on how you see the game being played.

Of course, as pointed out in the article, the competitive / online crowd is going to see ANY change that takes function away from the gamer as extremely negative.

I don't agree with the sentiment of "you might as well play as a coach" because I think that comment really downplays the interest in playing with players whose attributes impact gameplay more. I can also see counter arguments against it, such as "but as a ball carrier, I still choose where I'm going, so ball carrier vision doesn't matter then." So, again, I see the arguments.

Here’s something that could accomplish a similar goal without limiting the player so much:


(1) Hide the icons PRE-SNAP, not post-snap.
(2) Randomly distribute the icons, so that post-snap the guy to your left is not automatically square or whatever, which will make the user have to “see it, throw it,” just like a rookie would.