How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

[canes21]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Well even with randomizing icons/hiding them presnap, you still can make Darnold a better decision maker. You just have to be really good. And I'm fine with that.


What I'm not fine with is gimicky mechanics that make it impossible to throw to a certain WR. That makes no sense to me and it pushes user mode too close to coach mode for my tastes.

That's why I feel anything they do, if they do anything at all, needs options. Personally, I think simply randomizing the buttons each snap won't really do anything. I know I won't struggle with that system at all, so I'm not a fan of it, but I get why others would be more in favor for that system versus hiding receiver icons temporarily after the snap.

I think both are equally gimmicky ideas, though. I don't think you can talk one down calling it a gimmick while defending the other when both are trying to create artificial confusion to make ratings matter more. You can say it makes no sense to have receiver icons hidden because it isn't like a QB won't realize who is on the field with him, and you're not necessarily wrong. In the same vein, randomizing icons is no less gimmicky because it isn't like a QB in real life presses the wrong button. If I go to throw the drag route, but hit the wrong icon and throw the streak across the other side of the field, that's not exactly representative of how QB's make the wrong decisions.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

That's why I feel anything they do, if they do anything at all, needs options. Personally, I think simply randomizing the buttons each snap won't really do anything. I know I won't struggle with that system at all, so I'm not a fan of it, but I get why others would be more in favor for that system versus hiding receiver icons temporarily after the snap.

I think both are equally gimmicky ideas, though. I don't think you can talk one down calling it a gimmick while defending the other when both are trying to create artificial confusion to make ratings matter more. You can say it makes no sense to have receiver icons hidden because it isn't like a QB won't realize who is on the field with him, and you're not necessarily wrong. In the same vein, randomizing icons is no less gimmicky because it isn't like a QB in real life presses the wrong button. If I go to throw the drag route, but hit the wrong icon and throw the streak across the other side of the field, that's not exactly representative of how QB's make the wrong decisions.

Because one forces you to first look and then react, while the other makes it impossible for you to make an informed reaction until a certain amount of time has passed.

What the randomizing icons does is make you have to double check and see before you throw: see it, throw it.


Note: the point isn’t to force you into making a wrong decision. The point is to force you to have to make sure before you throw, and THAT is very much like what real rookie QBs do. It isn’t so much that they’re “making the wrong decision” all the time. It’s that they’re late in making the right decision, which is precisely why they usually make the wrong decision. And they’re late because they are unsure of what they see. They process slow.

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An alternative is to just hide all if them but one post-snap. Yeah, you can still keep track, but if you scramble around, you are now basically locking on to one guy or guessing.

[canes21]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Because one forces you to first look and then react, while the other makes it impossible for you to make an informed reaction until a certain amount of time has passed.

What the randomizing icons does is make you have to double check and see before you throw: see it, throw it.


Note: the point isn’t to force you into making a wrong decision. The point is to force you to have to make sure before you throw, and THAT is very much like what real rookie QBs do. It isn’t so much that they’re “making the wrong decision” all the time. It’s that they’re late in making the right decision, which is precisely why they usually make the wrong decision. And they’re late because they are unsure of what they see. They process slow.

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An alternative is to just hide all if them but one post-snap. Yeah, you can still keep track, but if you scramble around, you are now basically locking on to one guy or guessing.

I understand what the theory behind the idea is, I just personally am not as big of a fan of it. Again, that's just my opinion. I know I personally wouldn't struggle with random icons as much as other may. They'd be on screen before the routes were even entering their breaks, so I don't foresee myself struggling with it, but quick memory mechanics like that aren't what I find difficulty anyways.

I think it is challenging to really find a mechanic, or mechanics, that represent the mental side of the game and it is probably partially why EA hasn't really done anything for it. This thread is proof that even though we are a like minded community, we can't even agree on how to properly implement a mechanic that would make awareness matter more for user QB's.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

I understand what the theory behind the idea is, I just personally am not as big of a fan of it. Again, that's just my opinion. I know I personally wouldn't struggle with random icons as much as other may. They'd be on screen before the routes were even entering their breaks, so I don't foresee myself struggling with it, but quick memory mechanics like that aren't what I find difficulty anyways.

I think it is challenging to really find a mechanic, or mechanics, that represent the mental side of the game and it is probably partially why EA hasn't really done anything for it. This thread is proof that even though we are a like minded community, we can't even agree on how to properly implement a mechanic that would make awareness matter more for user QB's.

Well it wouldn't be quick memory mechanics, if we're talking about hiding the icons pre-snap. You won't know which button throws where until after the snap. So it's more about quick reaction while still maintaining the ability to short circuit your own reflexes than memory.





The way this will cause problems are when things don't go as planned, like the WR getting bumped while you're under pressure, and then you panic and throw to the button you instinctively think of, which makes you throw somewhere you didn't intend to.

[canes21]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Well it wouldn't be quick memory mechanics, if we're talking about hiding the icons pre-snap. You won't know which button throws where until after the snap. So it's more about quick reaction while still maintaining the ability to short circuit your own reflexes than memory.





The way this will cause problems are when things don't go as planned, like the WR getting bumped while you're under pressure, and then you panic and throw to the button you instinctively think of, which makes you throw somewhere you didn't intend to.

No, I understand exactly how the mechanic you're talking about works. I'm simply not a fan of it because I know for me it won't be challenging nor do I personally think it's the best way to make a low awareness player feel different.

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[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

No, I understand exactly how the mechanic you're talking about works. I'm simply not a fan of it because I know for me it won't be challenging nor do I personally think it's the best way to make a low awareness player feel different.

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Well, what are your thoughts on in game when momentum is against you and you can’t see your route design? Is that a good representation of being pressured?


Making it so you CAN’T throw a pass to someone just isn’t gonna fly. I can’t in a million years see that happening except on PC with mods. Not to mention, most Madden players are one-read anyway. If you give them only two wrs, they will only look at one, and just wait for a window to open.


So what other ways can you do it?

Obvious ones are no hot routes or audibles.

Could have the icons only visible for a second at a time; one appears, then disappears when another appears and so on.

What else is there?

[canes21]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Well, what are your thoughts on in game when momentum is against you and you can’t see your route design? Is that a good representation of being pressured?


Making it so you CAN’T throw a pass to someone just isn’t gonna fly. I can’t in a million years see that happening except on PC with mods. Not to mention, most Madden players are one-read anyway. If you give them only two wrs, they will only look at one, and just wait for a window to open.


So what other ways can you do it?

Obvious ones are no hot routes or audibles.

Could have the icons only visible for a second at a time; one appears, then disappears when another appears and so on.

What else is there?

I don't find the routes disappearing to be inpactful at all because I know what play I called. It doesn't cause me to get confused, personally.

With regards to your second paragraph, I've already admitted the idea is likely polarizing and most players wouldn't be fans of it. All I've said is I personally love the idea, but know many wouldn't like it at all. You also wouldn't be limited to only throwing to the icons that were visible, those would just be the only buttons you know where the ball is going when you press them.

And you talking about how it would make many players just sit there and watch one receiver and wait for them to get open... good. It sounds like what a lot of younger QBs do. They wait and the pressure gets to them or they force a throw. It sounds like the mechanic would make those players play like a rookie with their rookie.

What other ways can it be done? I'm not sure. That's literally the entire point of this thread is to see what ideas the community could come up with. There is no solution that will satisfy all. That's why I've said if EA actually does focus on this areea of the game the mechanic(s) must be able to be toggled.

I agree hot route and audible limitations would be a good first step. I think those systems need overhauls as a whole, but I would like to see awareness tie into what you can and cannot do at the line of scrimmage.

Your idea of the icons showing momentarily is an interesting one and I'd like to see how it played out. It's likely another polarizing idea, but I think anything you do to make awareness matter is going to be polarizing simply because of the different types of people that play Madden.

There simply isn't a solution that will make everyone happy. Any idea will be seen as gimmicky by somebody, and they aren't entirely wrong. However, I honestly don't see how you can implement anything that makes awareness matter that isn't a bit gimmicky.

It's like RPG games. In order for those games to make skills matter, they often make certain things impossible for your character to do, or make it so your character likely does them incorrectly even if the user knows the solution.

For example, I as the player may stumble across a puzzle that is easy to solve, but my characters perception is so low level that they cannot complete the puzzle. You can argue that's gimmicky, but you have to do things like that to make skills matter.

It's no different with ratings. Certain things in a video game must be done differently than real life, even if the goal is to be authentic, simply because there is no other way to show certain differences than having gamey mechanics.

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[Broncos86]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Then simply make awareness determine how quickly the QB learns the entire playbook.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Then simply make awareness determine how quickly the QB learns the entire playbook.

Other than limiting what players can do being an idea that won’t make it, the other issue here is that learning the playbook is not the hard part for rookie QBs. For all the “Trey Lance isn’t ready” talk, he knew the whole offense in training camp of his rookie year.

As I alluded to earlier—and the reason I’d prefer randomized and temporarily hidden icons, which causes hesitation by the user—the hardest things rookie QBs deal with are actually understanding defenses. And not just coverages. It’s understanding the speed, what “open” is in the NFL, and most importantly, vision and anticipation. These are the things rookies struggle with the most.

It’s not about the playbook, except with lazy guys who will be busts. It’s about how to execute against specific defensive looks, how to recognize them, and how much of the field you can see and anticipate. Rookies tend to suck at these things, which is why they get sacked so much (think they see something, but the speed of the league closes the hole they thought they saw, so they hesitate), it’s why they throw pick sixes (because they are late to make the throw, for all the reasons listed), it’s why they are inaccurate (confusion about these things results in them getting antsy and forgetting their fundamentals), and so on.

[simbayless]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

It would be awesome if the CPU had there own special abilities that makes them play exactly like their counterpart
.for example

QB plays exactly like Peyton Manning with the audibles if he sees a hole in your defense,like if one of your CB got hurt and he sees that so he will go deep picking on that lower rated CB or even calling bluff audibles to to keep you on your toes

We wont get that until PlayStation 7

[Broncos86]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

As I alluded to earlier—and the reason I’d prefer randomized and temporarily hidden icons, which causes hesitation by the user—the hardest things rookie QBs deal with are actually understanding defenses. And not just coverages. It’s understanding the speed, what “open” is in the NFL, and most importantly, vision and anticipation. These are the things rookies struggle with the most.

I think what's missing in this discussion is that:

A) these aren't going to happen, regardless
B) There's an obvious and clear divide between some in what is wanted.

The last 3 pages has essentially been "I like A" vs "I like B" and then restating the same thing over and over. for the sake of discussion, you're better off finding common ground at this point rather than continuing to try to ram what each likes at one another.

EA isn't going to read this and say "man, that one guy is REALLY passionate about this, we better do it." It's why I basically just stopped. XD

[Caulfield]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

I think what's missing in this discussion is that:

A) these aren't going to happen, regardless
B) There's an obvious and clear divide between some in what is wanted.

The last 3 pages has essentially been "I like A" vs "I like B" and then restating the same thing over and over. for the sake of discussion, you're better off finding common ground at this point rather than continuing to try to ram what each likes at one another.

EA isn't going to read this and say "man, that one guy is REALLY passionate about this, we better do it." It's why I basically just stopped. XD

at the very least, it would be great if any one or more ideas were eventually incorporated but you could pick and choose which new things you could toggle on/off, but like you say, probably not best holding our breath.
at it's very heart, thread really is another in a long line of wishlist threads

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

I think what's missing in this discussion is that:

A) these aren't going to happen, regardless
B) There's an obvious and clear divide between some in what is wanted.

The last 3 pages has essentially been "I like A" vs "I like B" and then restating the same thing over and over. for the sake of discussion, you're better off finding common ground at this point rather than continuing to try to ram what each likes at one another.

EA isn't going to read this and say "man, that one guy is REALLY passionate about this, we better do it." It's why I basically just stopped. XD

True. But there may be a way to do some of this on PC with a mod, because hiding routes and buttons post-snap is already in the game. But of course sadly it would only be for PC. And making routes impossible to to throw to would probably be not doable since that isn’t in the game except tied to RPOs.

[canes21]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

True. But there may be a way to do some of this on PC with a mod, because hiding routes and buttons post-snap is already in the game. But of course sadly it would only be for PC. And making routes impossible to to throw to would probably be not doable since that isn’t in the game except tied to RPOs.

I think you've misunderstood the idea with hidden icons that reveal over time. The routes wouldn't be impossible to throw, you'd just be taking a gamble if you pressed a button before all icons were revealed.

Let's say you had 4 routes on a play and dropped back and instantly had the X receiver icon, then the next icon to show up was the A icon, then the next was the B icon. If you were paying attention and saw the last guy without an icon was open, you'd be able to guess what button to press to throw to him.

It's still gimmicky, but any idea is basically going to be. Even randomizing the icons is gimmicky. I'll die on the hill in saying 99% of ideas that can be implemented to make awareness matter will be gimmicky.

Unless EA implements a system where playbook knowledge works and the low awareness QB's don't see all the accurate routes for a play, any mechanic they add be it random icons, temporarily hidden icons, etc. will be a bit gimmicky, but sometimes that's okay if it is done well and represents an actual difference we see in real life.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

I think you've misunderstood the idea with hidden icons that reveal over time. The routes wouldn't be impossible to throw, you'd just be taking a gamble if you pressed a button before all icons were revealed.

Let's say you had 4 routes on a play and dropped back and instantly had the X receiver icon, then the next icon to show up was the A icon, then the next was the B icon. If you were paying attention and saw the last guy without an icon was open, you'd be able to guess what button to press to throw to him.

It's still gimmicky, but any idea is basically going to be. Even randomizing the icons is gimmicky. I'll die on the hill in saying 99% of ideas that can be implemented to make awareness matter will be gimmicky.

Unless EA implements a system where playbook knowledge works and the low awareness QB's don't see all the accurate routes for a play, any mechanic they add be it random icons, temporarily hidden icons, etc. will be a bit gimmicky, but sometimes that's okay if it is done well and represents an actual difference we see in real life.

I thought you and Bronco had different ideas, his being some routes are simply off limits.

The playbook thing could be implemented if you mean hide play art at the line, because that is already in the game.