How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Following the ratings reveals for the QBs in Madden 23, OS user canes21 started a thread...

Written By: Chase Becotte

Click here to view the article.

Your thoughts on this?

For low awareness QBs, (1) make the icons invisible presnap, (2) make them random post-snap. That way, you don’t know which WR is square or X or triangle or whatever until AFTER the ball is snapped.

Benefits of this are that it forces low awareness QBs to be played in a “see it, throw it” way, just like inexperienced QBs do in real life. And it doesn’t come at the cost of actually limiting where a user can throw the ball.

[canes21]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Your thoughts on this?

For low awareness QBs, (1) make the icons invisible presnap, (2) make them random post-snap. That way, you don’t know which WR is square or X or triangle or whatever until AFTER the ball is snapped.

Benefits of this are that it forces low awareness QBs to be played in a “see it, throw it” way, just like inexperienced QBs do in real life. And it doesn’t come at the cost of actually limiting where a user can throw the ball.

This is something I recommended yesterday and I would be completely on-board with EA exploring this route. It would also be amazing if EA made available options that allowed us to fine tune how the ratings and the system worked together so we could get it where we wanted it to be.

Combine this with other recommendations like the audible/hot route limitations and I think EA would be cooking with something here. QB's would definitely feel differentiated if this was done well.

Another idea that I saw someone recommend recently was that along with having the icons hidden pre-snap, and random, they don't all appear instantly when you snap the ball with a lower awareness QB. I am absolutely IN LOVE with this idea.

Think of how all of these ideas could combine to make the QB position feel different, which is something Madden has really struggled with doing ever.

You have Tom Brady, at the line of scrimmage you have zero hot route limitations, zero hot route limitations, can see all WR icons pre-snap which means when you snap the ball you can see and throw to them all instantly.

Now imagine playing as your rookie QB with mediocre awareness. You're at the line of scrimmage. You have minimal audibles and hot routing ability. You only see your primary read's icon pre-snap, when you snap it it takes a second before the second button appears, and it's random each time, then the 3rd eventually comes in, also random, and so on.

That really is a nice way of showing that the guy is inexperienced and is struggling to get through his reads.

Another idea that someone brought up in this thread that would also go quite well with all of these ideas is the button that at the line of scrimmage before the snap, you press it and your QB analyzes the defense and based off of ratings they will automatically choose who the primary read should be based off of the defensive alignment and what they believe they are seeing the play will be.

And like that person recommended, it doesn't guarantee the route is open, and it may not even be the right read. The coverage may be a disguise, or the QB may have low awareness and his pre-snap reads may not be as good as someone like Brady, Rodgers, etc.

If EA could combine all of these ideas, make them able to be toggled on and off, and make them adjustable, oh boy. Even if we couldn't adjust them, but they were in the game, and at least able to be toggled on or off, I'd be over the moon.

I do wonder how much work it would require for them to get the system working properly. I think it may require EA to build progressions into each play which would be quite the undertaking. It would be okay if the icons appearing post snap were random, but it would be a weaker point to the systems, but if EA had them appearing accurately to what the progressions should be on the play based on the primary receiver, then the system is just that much better.

You'd also have to tinker with the system to see how it works best. Maybe with the lower rated QB's you always see the primary WR's icon pre-snap and whatever the check down/safety valve is on the play. So most plays you'd see a WR icon pre-snap along with your RB route, or a route like a drag route if your RB was in blocking.

It's not a secret that many rookies tend to struggle going through progressions, tend to force it to their first read, or fall into a pattern where they check it down constantly even when other things were available. These systems would actually reflect that perfectly for a video game, in my honest opinion.

I would love to have a weaker OL, have a rookie QB in my franchise, and constantly struggle usering him because I never have the time for my progressions to be made leading to me either forcing the ball, checking down constantly, or taking sacks. I've never struggled with a rookie QB in that realistic fashion and these systems would actually make that possible.

I beg anyone who has EA's ear, please have them look at these ideas, lol. I'm salivating at the thought of actually struggling with a young QB for once. It would really make building that position in franchise mode as important as it is in real life, something EA has never done.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

This is something I recommended yesterday and I would be completely on-board with EA exploring this route. It would also be amazing if EA made available options that allowed us to fine tune how the ratings and the system worked together so we could get it where we wanted it to be.

Combine this with other recommendations like the audible/hot route limitations and I think EA would be cooking with something here. QB's would definitely feel differentiated if this was done well.

Another idea that I saw someone recommend recently was that along with having the icons hidden pre-snap, and random, they don't all appear instantly when you snap the ball with a lower awareness QB. I am absolutely IN LOVE with this idea.

Think of how all of these ideas could combine to make the QB position feel different, which is something Madden has really struggled with doing ever.

You have Tom Brady, at the line of scrimmage you have zero hot route limitations, zero hot route limitations, can see all WR icons pre-snap which means when you snap the ball you can see and throw to them all instantly.

Now imagine playing as your rookie QB with mediocre awareness. You're at the line of scrimmage. You have minimal audibles and hot routing ability. You only see your primary read's icon pre-snap, when you snap it it takes a second before the second button appears, and it's random each time, then the 3rd eventually comes in, also random, and so on.

That really is a nice way of showing that the guy is inexperienced and is struggling to get through his reads.

Another idea that someone brought up in this thread that would also go quite well with all of these ideas is the button that at the line of scrimmage before the snap, you press it and your QB analyzes the defense and based off of ratings they will automatically choose who the primary read should be based off of the defensive alignment and what they believe they are seeing the play will be.

And like that person recommended, it doesn't guarantee the route is open, and it may not even be the right read. The coverage may be a disguise, or the QB may have low awareness and his pre-snap reads may not be as good as someone like Brady, Rodgers, etc.

If EA could combine all of these ideas, make them able to be toggled on and off, and make them adjustable, oh boy. Even if we couldn't adjust them, but they were in the game, and at least able to be toggled on or off, I'd be over the moon.

I do wonder how much work it would require for them to get the system working properly. I think it may require EA to build progressions into each play which would be quite the undertaking. It would be okay if the icons appearing post snap were random, but it would be a weaker point to the systems, but if EA had them appearing accurately to what the progressions should be on the play based on the primary receiver, then the system is just that much better.

You'd also have to tinker with the system to see how it works best. Maybe with the lower rated QB's you always see the primary WR's icon pre-snap and whatever the check down/safety valve is on the play. So most plays you'd see a WR icon pre-snap along with your RB route, or a route like a drag route if your RB was in blocking.

It's not a secret that many rookies tend to struggle going through progressions, tend to force it to their first read, or fall into a pattern where they check it down constantly even when other things were available. These systems would actually reflect that perfectly for a video game, in my honest opinion.

I would love to have a weaker OL, have a rookie QB in my franchise, and constantly struggle usering him because I never have the time for my progressions to be made leading to me either forcing the ball, checking down constantly, or taking sacks. I've never struggled with a rookie QB in that realistic fashion and these systems would actually make that possible.

I beg anyone who has EA's ear, please have them look at these ideas, lol. I'm salivating at the thought of actually struggling with a young QB for once. It would really make building that position in franchise mode as important as it is in real life, something EA has never done.

Of these, the easiest to implement is probably just making the passing icons invisible presnap random post-snap and delayed. Because they already have something like that for when momentum gets extremely against you.

They could also do the mixed up play art presnap easily, since that is also already in the game.

[jyod21]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

I don't know if randomizing the icons, post snap, is the way to go. I don't think that really replicates what an inexperienced qb goes through. He doesn't just accidently throw the ball to the other side of the field, because he's staring down his target. Maybe randomizing them presnap, or only showing 1 or 2 receivers presnap would work. That could help replicate them wanting to tuck the ball when their primary read is gone, and causes them to take more sacks/force the ball and just generally take more hits from the defense. I would hate to throw the ball 40 yards down field, just because your check down has their icon switched with your X receiver though.

[Therebelyell626]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Here’s something that could accomplish a similar goal without limiting the player so much:


(1) Hide the icons PRE-SNAP, not post-snap.
(2) Randomly distribute the icons, so that post-snap the guy to your left is not automatically square or whatever, which will make the user have to “see it, throw it,” just like a rookie would.

I really like both of those ideas and think they are more easily implemented then some of the others listed. I would definitely be all for this challenge

[TarHeelPhenom]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

I think there are some things there in the game now to differentiate QB's somewhat. I think ratings are always a start. Also, in Madden 23' there are now 17 different throwing motions that you can give QB's. You have the traits as far as how they handle pressure, whether they throw the ball away or take gambles, and whether they Scramble or stay in the Pocket.

I think that these things affect the AI more than the User for obvious reasons; and if you're a gamer who likes to run Coach Mode/Spectator Mode then you have more leeway in how you edit/customize QB's. I think it's a little more difficult when it comes to User v. CPU because you have to strike a balance between the CPU being competitive while editing so that they play more realistic. If you edit too low, then the User has the advantage. If you edit so that the AI is more competitive then you may run into Robo QB.

That's the main reason why I like running Coach Mode/Spectator Mode is because you basically allow the numbers and formulas dictate the outcome and you can edit and adjust to your hearts desire.

[ODogg]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Madden 23 has a HUGE differentiation from one QB to the next in regards to how they play, how well they play, how they throw, etc. After many hours with the beta I can tell you all that you'll be very happy with how different the QBs are. It's one of the best things I liked about it is the different feel going from one QB to another.

[TarHeelPhenom]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Madden 23 has a HUGE differentiation from one QB to the next in regards to how they play, how well they play, how they throw, etc. After many hours with the beta I can tell you all that you'll be very happy with how different the QBs are. It's one of the best things I liked about it is the different feel going from one QB to another.

To piggyback off of ODogg's post, if you want to see it for yourself...I would advise when you get the game play/watch a game with the Atlanta Falcons and Marcus Mariota and then watch one with the Packers or Chiefs with Rodgers and Mahomes. You'll definitely see a difference.

[canes21]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Madden 23 has a HUGE differentiation from one QB to the next in regards to how they play, how well they play, how they throw, etc. After many hours with the beta I can tell you all that you'll be very happy with how different the QBs are. It's one of the best things I liked about it is the different feel going from one QB to another.

It is true in the beta playing with and against different QB's did feel refreshing. Using Brady or Rodgers then going to Lamar Jackson was a noticeable difference, not just athletically, but also what passes I could and not complete when using the new skill based mechanic. Then going to Carson Wentz felt even more different from Lamar or the other two.

The same can be said when playing against guys. Brady was near impossible to stop. Lamar was streaky passing, but a huge threat running. Hurts was all over the place, but had his legs to rely on at times. It was truly fun seeing QB's behave and perform that differently.

That said, there's still plenty of room for improvement. EA still needs to really differentiate QB's mentally, especially when usering them. As it stands right now, if I have a 10 year veteran QB on my team with 90+ awareness, but a mediocre arm, and I just drafted a 1st round QB who has 60 awareness, but a big arm with some accuracy, there's zero reason for me to not use the rookie QB despite his low awareness since I am doing the mental part of being a QB.

I think that we need options to change that and I feel there are truly some great ideas in this thread for how to represent those mental differences.

I would love to play with that rookie in the preseason and see myself struggle using him because the passing icons don't all show up immediately representing his low awareness and struggle going through his progressions. It would actually make me have to think about who to start. Do I go with the QB I know can read a defense, but is limited in what he can throw? Or do I go with the kid who can make any throw, but I hardly ever even see what half my receivers icons are before pressure gets to me?

That sounds like an amazing back and forth to have with myself. It would really make playing with a young QB a struggle which has never really been the case in an EA game which is completely opposite of real life.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

I don't know if randomizing the icons, post snap, is the way to go. I don't think that really replicates what an inexperienced qb goes through. He doesn't just accidently throw the ball to the other side of the field, because he's staring down his target. Maybe randomizing them presnap, or only showing 1 or 2 receivers presnap would work. That could help replicate them wanting to tuck the ball when their primary read is gone, and causes them to take more sacks/force the ball and just generally take more hits from the defense. I would hate to throw the ball 40 yards down field, just because your check down has their icon switched with your X receiver though.

It replicates rookie what QBs go through because it forces the user to have to wait and look, and then think quickly, extending PROCESSING TIME. And that is what rookie QBs are bad at: processing.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Madden 23 has a HUGE differentiation from one QB to the next in regards to how they play, how well they play, how they throw, etc. After many hours with the beta I can tell you all that you'll be very happy with how different the QBs are. It's one of the best things I liked about it is the different feel going from one QB to another.

But how? When I played the beta, the only difference I found was accuracy. The idea being discussed right now (randomizing icons and hiding them presnap) actually simulates what rookies suck at, which is processing. It forces you to become a “see it, throw it” passer instead of a rhythm passer, which is where rookies actually struggle at the most.

[canes21]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

But how? When I played the beta, the only difference I found was accuracy. The idea being discussed right now (randomizing icons and hiding them presnap) actually simulates what rookies suck at, which is processing. It forces you to become a “see it, throw it” passer instead of a rhythm passer, which is where rookies actually struggle at the most.

He isn't wrong that QB's felt differently in the beta. As you said, though, it was essentially their physical traits that were different. Their athleticism and their arm strength/accuracy all felt different. That's a great stride for Madden because even in the past that hasn't been the case. Before, as long as the user QB had average accuracy ratings, you were set at the position. You never need a true franchise caliber QB to be successful on offense because of how the passing game worked. That wasn't the case in the beta, thankfully.

What this thread has basically evolved into is a topic now discussing how to differentiate the mental side of being a QB when they are being controller by a user. On that front, there was nothing in the beta to differentiate them, and outside of the Passing Cone, nothing in Madden's history has ever been done to differentiate the mental side of being a QB.

I can see this being a polarizing topic for the Madden community because there is no way to really show the difference between a rookie and a veteran other than introducing gamey mechanics. At least with throw power and accuracy, you literally can have the players throw and miss in realistic manners without adding some mechanic to the game on top of what is already happening on the field.

Unfortunately, since we as the users are the ones making all of the processing decisions for our QB's, you have to implement additional mechanics on top of the basic gameplay. That includes ideas like random icons, hiding icons temporarily to simulate progressions, etc.

[jfsolo]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

What so interesting about this discussion to me is that I have always felt that the best sim games are the ones where the physical abilities and parameters are reproduced accurately by the dev team with the User taking over the mental aspects of the player(s) they are controlling being the whole point. to me.

Throw power has been too high, accuracy too good, pass rush too weak and pass coverage soft and simplistic IMO because if they are reproduced accurately most Users are going to throw 20+ picks a season even with a Brady or a Rodgers, let alone with a lesser QB, because most aren't even as good a rookie QB at making the right decisions.

If I'm playing NBA 2K and I'm controlling Russell Westbrook, I don't want to be able to turn him into a 42% shooter from downtown, but I do want to be able to make him a better decision maker with me controlling him. I don't want all of the passing icons to be disabled so I have to jack up an ill-advised shot to simulate his real low bball IQ.

In that same vein I want to be able to make Sam Darnold a better decision maker, with the ratings, traits, roster, and opponent being the obstacles making it harder on me.

If the hand holding in all other aspects of the game was removed, then maybe icon manipulation wouldn't be necessary.

[canes21]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

What so interesting about this discussion to me is that I have always felt that the best sim games are the ones where the physical abilities and parameters are reproduced accurately by the dev team with the User taking over the mental aspects of the player(s) they are controlling being the whole point. to me.

Throw power has been too high, accuracy too good, pass rush too weak and pass coverage soft and simplistic IMO because if they are reproduced accurately most Users are going to throw 20+ picks a season even with a Brady or a Rodgers, let alone with a lesser QB, because most aren't even as good a rookie QB at making the right decisions.

If I'm playing NBA 2K and I'm controlling Russell Westbrook, I don't want to be able to turn him into a 42% shooter from downtown, but I do want to be able to make him a better decision maker with me controlling him. I don't want all of the passing icons to be disabled so I have to jack up an ill-advised shot to simulate his real low bball IQ.

In that same vein I want to be able to make Sam Darnold a better decision maker, with the ratings, traits, roster, and opponent being the obstacles making it harder on me.

If the hand holding in all other aspects of the game was removed, then maybe icon manipulation wouldn't be necessary.

I see where you're coming from and understand your point, but my personal approach to these games is simply different from yours. Where you want to take over Westbrook or Darnold and make them better decision makers, I play these games because I want to deal with a player's weaknesses and I want to build teams that have minimal weaknesses and will win because of it. I don't want to make Darnold a better decision maker because I am controlling him, I want to develop him and have him progress into a better decision maker, or I want to replace him with a better decision maker.

That's just how I play sports games and it is why I feel mechanics like what are being described in the game are necessary options we should have. I want to be responsible for building the team, developing it, and calling the plays.

I know many others enjoy taking players and making them play better than their real life counterparts. It can be fun to take an average player, make them produce, and turn them into a star. I see the allure of that and understand that's probably how the majority of players enjoy the game. However, that's simply not how I personally want to play the game.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

I see where you're coming from and understand your point, but my personal approach to these games is simply different from yours. Where you want to take over Westbrook or Darnold and make them better decision makers, I play these games because I want to deal with a player's weaknesses and I want to build teams that have minimal weaknesses and will win because of it. I don't want to make Darnold a better decision maker because I am controlling him, I want to develop him and have him progress into a better decision maker, or I want to replace him with a better decision maker.

That's just how I play sports games and it is why I feel mechanics like what are being described in the game are necessary options we should have. I want to be responsible for building the team, developing it, and calling the plays.

I know many others enjoy taking players and making them play better than their real life counterparts. It can be fun to take an average player, make them produce, and turn them into a star. I see the allure of that and understand that's probably how the majority of players enjoy the game. However, that's simply not how I personally want to play the game.

Well even with randomizing icons/hiding them presnap, you still can make Darnold a better decision maker. You just have to be really good. And I'm fine with that.


What I'm not fine with is gimicky mechanics that make it impossible to throw to a certain WR. That makes no sense to me and it pushes user mode too close to coach mode for my tastes.