Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

[grunt]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

my tag is freak93 add me and we'll play.

Mine is grunt 007. Looking forward to the game.

[grunt]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

We need set up lab sessions. Let practice and share ideas how to stop certain players and styles.

I download the best the top rushing vip. Then I pick a team with Mr. Earl. I go in practice mode and put my defensive sliders to 0 and my goal is to stop Mr. Earl. I pick sweeps play because that where he is a beast if can get around the corner.

Practice helps. Live Lab/practice sessions online help.

Just my 2 cents.

Peace

[sleepytercel]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Also, quit playing in the All Pro lobbies. The Legend lobbies are also ranked, and many of these issues are degraded. It does help to use the "R" stick tackling at times, and I feel I'm starting to get used to it.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Did you ever see Earl Campbell in a game...for a short period of time he was almost impossible to bring down alone.. He ran through EVERYONE..He was just that damn good

I've seen him in several real games and he is no where near as effective as he is in this game. Now he was a tough cat in real life, but nothing like in this game. Earl Campbell was a wild runner and prone to several mistakes and was prone to big hits. In this game he does not make mistakes and never suffers from big hits. In this game you do not get the other side. You are not going to get a big hit on him, but he will run your a$$ over in a heartbeat (yeah we saw a few highlight reels where he punished people, then people believed that happened all the time, well it didn't). I basically retired this game last night while playing someone online while the score was 0-0.

[Red Ronin]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Well for a WR a career day might be as many as 7-10 catches, possibly as few as 3 or 4 if he scores a touchdown or two... For a lineman a career day might be three or four sacks or a similar quantity of tackles for a loss. For a running back a career day could be 30+ carries, even if it is for under 100 yards, due to the time taken off the clock. For someone in the Secondary a career day may mean two or three open field tackles, five or six defended passes and hopefully, an interception returned for a touchdown. It's all relative. I have seen all of these things happen in this game. Haven't you?

There may have been a game or two during Jack Tatum's career where he knocked down or intercepted EVERYTHING that came his way... But that largely would depend upon the QB, Receiving core, running game and scheme he was up against. He didn't play against Hall of Famers every week, just as Jerry Rice didn't.

Analogy: BB King is world renowned as one of the best Blues guitarists known to man. Even he will admit that he just can't play chords. I'm sure that there were certain players that Jack Tatum simply OWNED. They knew it, he knew it. Similarly there were likely some types of Defensive schemes he may not have been as good at and some types of Offensive schemes he may not have been able to cover as well. It's all relative.


Red Ronin

[maskedmarvel]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Really good discussion in this thread. Just want to concur with the sentiment that certian overpowered offensive players would be more palatable if their defensive legend counterparts were overpowered, too. Since this is a game, and one built on the premise of special, elite players being, well, special, I'm cool with a guy like Campbell being almost superhuman. Just make Reggie White the same way. (Know what would help a ton? If the really good defenders had a super-quick set of block shedding/evading animations, espeically in one-on-one situations. That would help bring in the fear factor LBz mentions, which is right on the money. It would also help if the other gold linebackers flew around like Derrick Thomas -- I think he's the one gold LB that 2k got mostly right).

Interestingly enough, I spoke to one of the devs about this and he agreed -- said it was more a matter of needing extra time to balance the game better.

From a commercial standpoint, sports games are always going to be biased toward offense. So I sort of sympathize with 2k.

[grunt]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Then don't play with teams that are using Earl. Problem solved.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Really good discussion in this thread. Just want to concur with the sentiment that certian overpowered offensive players would be more palatable if their defensive legend counterparts were overpowered, too. Since this is a game, and one built on the premise of special, elite players being, well, special, I'm cool with a guy like Campbell being almost superhuman. Just make Reggie White the same way. (Know what would help a ton? If the really good defenders had a super-quick set of block shedding/evading animations, espeically in one-on-one situations. That would help bring in the fear factor LBz mentions, which is right on the money. It would also help if the other gold linebackers flew around like Derrick Thomas -- I think he's the one gold LB that 2k got mostly right).

Interestingly enough, I spoke to one of the devs about this and he agreed -- said it was more a matter of needing extra time to balance the game better.

From a commercial standpoint, sports games are always going to be biased toward offense. So I sort of sympathize with 2k.

Yeah. But this is why I think developers need to spend more time with defense because offense will always be the easier thing to work with. When madden came out alot of people thought it was impossible to pass without throwing INT's. I thought that too, but then I got my playbook and starting labbing the passing routes and now all of a sudden I have 5 bump and run beaters, and I have 12 other plays where the WR gets inside position against base man coverage and it is good for 10 to 15 yards. All it took was to study the behavior of the CB's in man then go find routes that. Now INT's are down to the ones I force. The running game has opened up and the offense seems to be clicking on all cylinders. No matter how difficult it seems to move the ball in a video game, it is always easy to find ways to do it even when the defense is programmed to cheat you can still find easy ways to move the ball. On the flip side when you are handicapped defensively, it is tough as hell to stop a good offensive player, or it is very tough to combat the



Not saying it cannot be dealt with but you have to do some unsound things sometimes. I look at some of the defenses in the game and scratch my head. Why are the Bear and 44 much worse against the run then the conventional 43? Teams drop into 8 man fronts because they can't stop the run with 7. But in this game you are better to stay out of the 8 man front to deal with the run. You can run right into the teeth of the 46 Bear and pick up crazy yards. Don't understand that. The weakness of the 46 Bear is the weak side where the Open End lines up. Teams hit that with a weak counter or a weak side sweep. They may go with a zone cutback into the middle as they get the linemen moving. But nobody attempts to attack this defense on the strong side. But in this game the strong side is not really the strong side. You can tear it up.

[HotShot232]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Then don't play with teams that are using Earl. Problem solved.

I agree campbell is stoppable. BUT he is overpowered. I compared his real life stats to the ones in a league and he would flat out SMASH every record he ever had in this game. I have seen 35 broken tackle stats in a SINGLE GAME!!!!! That is just nuts. I mean the guy was a beast don't get me wrong. BUT he was human, the ONLY thing I wish 2k would take from madden is the high/low tackles. Being able to take the legs out of him like you could on madden would be HUGE. You can hit low on APF but it is just not the same as maddens "taking legs out" hit. To many times I try and hit him low and he just lowers the shoulder and runs through me or stiff arms the guy to the ground. Watching him run through 6 people on defense is the most annoying part of the game and the ONLY part that needs a slight ajustment would be his break tackle ability.

As far as the rest of the game when I face ANYONE else. Rice, Elway, Montana, Sanders, even O.J. I can contain each area of the offense. Alot has to do with right plays, ALOT has to do with personel, Alot has to do with players making plays. You can call the PERFECT DEFENSE 9 out of 10 times BUT 3 to 4 of those times will result in a gain if the offense just converts better.

Now I know that video with tuggle showing the poor linebacker play, I have seen SOME of this but on a whole it does not play like that down after down. I am scared to run against singletary or other gold Linebackers. They just make their way through traffic ALOT better than generics.

I think alot of people are expecting that they called the right defense and it should work at stopping them. That is not the case in real ball, back when Jamal Lewis rushed for 2000 yards. Don't you think the defense and coaching staff KNEW they were going to run it and run it some more???? Sure they did, it was just stopping it EVEN WITH THE PERFECT CALL was darn near impossible.

You have to remember backs are the glory of the stars, that and QBs. So they gonna get alot of love. Meaning a gold back you can't expect to stop him every game. You have to scheme around him just to CONTAIN him. He will pop some, limiting those big pops is the key. Staying and home and leting him come to you all game is alot better than over pursuing and giving up the big gain.

Now on to linebackers, HB like Ricky williams when he was with the saints played against JASON TAYLOR and ran for great yards. He made tackles BUT single handly stopping a back he can't do alone. Same thing with any Linebacker you take. They can do thing BETTER, but you can't expect them to be the stopping force of all. They will get blocked, they will get out of postion, they are SUPPOSED to be human. Stat wise everything comes out pretty realistic so that has to translate into the gameplay. I see no issues with defense in APF. Everything looks pretty normal to me. Is the game at the speed of the NFL, easy answer is NO. Was this a design to make it little easier on the user? I THINK SO.

Final thoughts, I think some of you have unrealistic views of how you think it should play out. Normal game for me on 7 min quarters is around 200-300 passing depending on the day QB had. Rushing between 50 to 140 yards. Defense 6 to 10 tackles leading tackler. WR, 5-9 receptions 60 to 150 yards.

This is both teams online. Nothing has ever been out of this world for me. Now I have seen stats on other people who have been rushed on for 500 yards. Which I think is just CRAZY. For me that has never even been close.

[Sven Draconian]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Final thoughts, I think some of you have unrealistic views of how you think it should play out. Normal game for me on 7 min quarters is around 200-300 passing depending on the day QB had. Rushing between 50 to 140 yards. Defense 6 to 10 tackles leading tackler. WR, 5-9 receptions 60 to 150 yards.

This is both teams online. Nothing has ever been out of this world for me. Now I have seen stats on other people who have been rushed on for 500 yards. Which I think is just CRAZY. For me that has never even been close.

Well then here is your problem. On 7/8 min quarters it should come out to about 215 passing and about 100 rushing...for good a offense on the game in game out side. A great offensive game should be 300 passing, 120 rushing.

An average offense (IE, not loaded with stars) against an average defense (IE, not loaded with stars) should go just under 200 passing yards and about 85 on the ground.

In APF an average offense can put up those numbers against a good defense. An Average offense against an average defense is likely to hit 325+ yardage wise. That is not balanced.

An unbalanced team (IE, Marino at QB or a Campbell at RB) should suffer in the other category (comparative to talent. IE, a team with both Marino and Campbell will be better than average running and passing, but will not pass as well as a team with just Marino or run as well as a team with just Campbell based on pure yardage). The rationale for this is pretty simple, there is only one ball.

This does not mean there should not be explosive games. However, the average game totals are just a shade high, which is frustrating to a defensively-oriented player like myself.

Just taking my games and some of the stuff I've seen posted is that offense is between 25 and 50 yards per game too high on the average. That equates to about 3 first downs (on average) which is most likely in the area of 4 points a game.

This could all be solved by simply making the defensive stars better, or by making the offensive ones a shade worse.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

I agree campbell is stoppable. BUT he is overpowered. I compared his real life stats to the ones in a league and he would flat out SMASH every record he ever had in this game. I have seen 35 broken tackle stats in a SINGLE GAME!!!!! That is just nuts. I mean the guy was a beast don't get me wrong. BUT he was human, the ONLY thing I wish 2k would take from madden is the high/low tackles. Being able to take the legs out of him like you could on madden would be HUGE. You can hit low on APF but it is just not the same as maddens "taking legs out" hit. To many times I try and hit him low and he just lowers the shoulder and runs through me or stiff arms the guy to the ground. Watching him run through 6 people on defense is the most annoying part of the game and the ONLY part that needs a slight ajustment would be his break tackle ability.

As far as the rest of the game when I face ANYONE else. Rice, Elway, Montana, Sanders, even O.J. I can contain each area of the offense. Alot has to do with right plays, ALOT has to do with personel, Alot has to do with players making plays. You can call the PERFECT DEFENSE 9 out of 10 times BUT 3 to 4 of those times will result in a gain if the offense just converts better.

Now I know that video with tuggle showing the poor linebacker play, I have seen SOME of this but on a whole it does not play like that down after down. I am scared to run against singletary or other gold Linebackers. They just make their way through traffic ALOT better than generics.

I think alot of people are expecting that they called the right defense and it should work at stopping them. That is not the case in real ball, back when Jamal Lewis rushed for 2000 yards. Don't you think the defense and coaching staff KNEW they were going to run it and run it some more???? Sure they did, it was just stopping it EVEN WITH THE PERFECT CALL was darn near impossible.

You have to remember backs are the glory of the stars, that and QBs. So they gonna get alot of love. Meaning a gold back you can't expect to stop him every game. You have to scheme around him just to CONTAIN him. He will pop some, limiting those big pops is the key. Staying and home and leting him come to you all game is alot better than over pursuing and giving up the big gain.

Now on to linebackers, HB like Ricky williams when he was with the saints played against JASON TAYLOR and ran for great yards. He made tackles BUT single handly stopping a back he can't do alone. Same thing with any Linebacker you take. They can do thing BETTER, but you can't expect them to be the stopping force of all. They will get blocked, they will get out of postion, they are SUPPOSED to be human. Stat wise everything comes out pretty realistic so that has to translate into the gameplay. I see no issues with defense in APF. Everything looks pretty normal to me. Is the game at the speed of the NFL, easy answer is NO. Was this a design to make it little easier on the user? I THINK SO.

Final thoughts, I think some of you have unrealistic views of how you think it should play out. Normal game for me on 7 min quarters is around 200-300 passing depending on the day QB had. Rushing between 50 to 140 yards. Defense 6 to 10 tackles leading tackler. WR, 5-9 receptions 60 to 150 yards.

This is both teams online. Nothing has ever been out of this world for me. Now I have seen stats on other people who have been rushed on for 500 yards. Which I think is just CRAZY. For me that has never even been close.

Per Jamal Lewis. Yeah he tore it up that year, but the Ravens pretty much ran what they called their U formation. The Steelers did good against it, but the one team that stopped it cold was the Titans in the playoff game. They used a combination of Split 44 and 46 Bear and sent Jamal packing. So it was a matter of calling the right fronts and having guys play disciplined. The problem in APF is the fronts are not right by default, so you have alot of micro-managing to do and with the quick snappers you can just forget it. But not only that, it's not that simple either. Jamal picked up a great deal of his yards off cutbacks behind a guy that is going to be a in All Pro Football terms Gold Hall of Famer/Legend - Jonathan Ogden. These cats in 2k8 have straight generic offensive lines and do the same damage against Gold defensive players. This is key to the entire debate right here. If it was Tony Munoz over there against Reggie White and Munoz won a few times and White got him back and it was even then fine. But we are talking about a scrub offensive tackle completely owning Reggie White.

Per Ricky Williams vs Jason Taylor. Jason wasn't a linebacker back then. His position back then was purely DE. He didn't start playing OLB/DE until two years ago. There are issues with the defense in this game. I don't think anyone is calling for super human defenders. I think people want balance. If you are going to let Earl, Barry ect do their thing, then why not let Derrick Thomas have his 7 sacks in one game performance that he had in real life? No, most people are going to say, well that is not fun. Well what's the fun in Earl breaking 6 tackles and running for 72 yards and a touchdown, especially when you had 3 defenders there within the first three yards of the run? Balance is all I'm asking and stop having some of the Legend defenders act like they do not have a clue.

Per linebackers. As far as A.I logic this is the worse position in the game. It's not just the Tuggle standing there. There are several other issues that go into alot of the big runs. For one there are timing and movement issues - basically the Tuggle issue. For two there is no force and flow logic. Three, the OLB's give up the edges too easily due to being pancaked by TE's. These guys do not have to make the tackle on run plays, but they are a big part of containing plays and when they do not even come close to doing anything sound it's a lot to make up for. Even if the OLB does not make the tackle on a stretch play, by him playing the edge and getting outside leverage he at least forces the run back inside to the traffic and at worse you give up a 6 yard run rather than a 25 yard run.

Per blitzing, these guys are not getting after the passer with any type of command or authority at all. It's just a casual trot to the QB. And there is no consistency in where they are going. 2k has closing speed as an ability, but nobody in the game has it. You are right the defenders are supposed to be human but so are the offensive players. At the end of the day, when we look at the great performances by all of these players in real life and then look at this game it seems clear to me who received more attention. Derrick Thomas will never have his record breaking performance. Harry Carson will never have those 14 aolo tackles in one game, Reggie will never be feared, Ronnie Lott is never going to use his body as a human projectile, Butkas, Lambert and Singletary will not be feared linebackers. When you go back and look at the highlight reels for these guys and the highlight reels for the offensive guys there is alot more that should have been captured.

A good example, Robert Brazile in a game against the Redskins he went in on a blitz, got chop blocked and blocked high but rolled over and keep crawling toward the QB. That took heart, grit, attitude and determination, and a never say die attitude, something that these guys do not feel like they have. Ronnie Lott hit Mark Bavaro on a post pattern so hard one time that Lott lost the upper half of his pinky finger. he went to the sideline and said tape that sh@t up and he was back in the game because for Lott that post area was his home and if you came into his home you had to pay, something that the Lott in this game does not have. Jack Lambert came on a blitz up the gut once, leaped in the air, was upended by the HB, rolled up off the ground and continued after the QB and bring him down from behind. Don't even get me started on Lawrence Taylor. Frankly, I'm kinda glad he isn't in this version. Don't think he would be done justice in this iteration.

You might look and say, but LB those type of plays are impossible to program. And I say, well why are Earl, Walter ect breaking tackles left and right? They get to relive their spectacular moments but defenders do not? The problem with defense in this game IMO is I can't FEEL it. When I get on offense and have Marino, I feel that gunslinger mentality. I feel that quick strike pass when the WR gets that inside position. When I have Walter Payton in my backfield I feel that attitude run even if I only get 4 yards. But on defense, I can't feel anything. No attitude, no heart, no gritty determination ect. I think one thing is also telling too, alot of the people I have played online when I look at their defense all of them run the SAME thing. Nobody blitzes, the only guy that has the ballz the blitz is Freak 93, and he'll get burned some but he'd rather get beat blitzing than sitting back and being soft.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

This could all be solved by simply making the defensive stars better, or by making the offensive ones a shade worse.

And I'd rather the defensive guys be better than the offensive guys toned down. I wouldn't mind Earl having the same power he has now, but give the user adequate defensive fronts and tighten up the speed of the defenders, their aggressiveness and physicality. I don't see anyone playing wrecklessly, throwing their body around making plays and that's what alot of these older defensive players did. They gave their bodies up. That's why many of them did not have long careers.

[maskedmarvel]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Preach it, brother LBz!

[HotShot232]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Per Jamal Lewis. Yeah he tore it up that year, but the Ravens pretty much ran what they called their U formation. The Steelers did good against it, but the one team that stopped it cold was the Titans in the playoff game. They used a combination of Split 44 and 46 Bear and sent Jamal packing. So it was a matter of calling the right fronts and having guys play disciplined. The problem in APF is the fronts are not right by default, so you have alot of micro-managing to do and with the quick snappers you can just forget it. But not only that, it's not that simple either. Jamal picked up a great deal of his yards off cutbacks behind a guy that is going to be a in All Pro Football terms Gold Hall of Famer/Legend - Jonathan Ogden. These cats in 2k8 have straight generic offensive lines and do the same damage against Gold defensive players. This is key to the entire debate right here. If it was Tony Munoz over there against Reggie White and Munoz won a few times and White got him back and it was even then fine. But we are talking about a scrub offensive tackle completely owning Reggie White.

Per Ricky Williams vs Jason Taylor. Jason wasn't a linebacker back then. His position back then was purely DE. He didn't start playing OLB/DE until two years ago. There are issues with the defense in this game. I don't think anyone is calling for super human defenders. I think people want balance. If you are going to let Earl, Barry ect do their thing, then why not let Derrick Thomas have his 7 sacks in one game performance that he had in real life? No, most people are going to say, well that is not fun. Well what's the fun in Earl breaking 6 tackles and running for 72 yards and a touchdown, especially when you had 3 defenders there within the first three yards of the run? Balance is all I'm asking and stop having some of the Legend defenders act like they do not have a clue.

Per linebackers. As far as A.I logic this is the worse position in the game. It's not just the Tuggle standing there. There are several other issues that go into alot of the big runs. For one there are timing and movement issues - basically the Tuggle issue. For two there is no force and flow logic. Three, the OLB's give up the edges too easily due to being pancaked by TE's. These guys do not have to make the tackle on run plays, but they are a big part of containing plays and when they do not even come close to doing anything sound it's a lot to make up for. Even if the OLB does not make the tackle on a stretch play, by him playing the edge and getting outside leverage he at least forces the run back inside to the traffic and at worse you give up a 6 yard run rather than a 25 yard run.

Per blitzing, these guys are not getting after the passer with any type of command or authority at all. It's just a casual trot to the QB. And there is no consistency in where they are going. 2k has closing speed as an ability, but nobody in the game has it. You are right the defenders are supposed to be human but so are the offensive players. At the end of the day, when we look at the great performances by all of these players in real life and then look at this game it seems clear to me who received more attention. Derrick Thomas will never have his record breaking performance. Harry Carson will never have those 14 aolo tackles in one game, Reggie will never be feared, Ronnie Lott is never going to use his body as a human projectile, Butkas, Lambert and Singletary will not be feared linebackers. When you go back and look at the highlight reels for these guys and the highlight reels for the offensive guys there is alot more that should have been captured.

A good example, Robert Brazile in a game against the Redskins he went in on a blitz, got chop blocked and blocked high but rolled over and keep crawling toward the QB. That took heart, grit, attitude and determination, and a never say die attitude, something that these guys do not feel like they have. Ronnie Lott hit Mark Bavaro on a post pattern so hard one time that Lott lost the upper half of his pinky finger. he went to the sideline and said tape that sh@t up and he was back in the game because for Lott that post area was his home and if you came into his home you had to pay, something that the Lott in this game does not have. Jack Lambert came on a blitz up the gut once, leaped in the air, was upended by the HB, rolled up off the ground and continued after the QB and bring him down from behind. Don't even get me started on Lawrence Taylor. Frankly, I'm kinda glad he isn't in this version. Don't think he would be done justice in this iteration.

You might look and say, but LB those type of plays are impossible to program. And I say, well why are Earl, Walter ect breaking tackles left and right? They get to relive their spectacular moments but defenders do not? The problem with defense in this game IMO is I can't FEEL it. When I get on offense and have Marino, I feel that gunslinger mentality. I feel that quick strike pass when the WR gets that inside position. When I have Walter Payton in my backfield I feel that attitude run even if I only get 4 yards. But on defense, I can't feel anything. No attitude, no heart, no gritty determination ect. I think one thing is also telling too, alot of the people I have played online when I look at their defense all of them run the SAME thing. Nobody blitzes, the only guy that has the ballz the blitz is Freak 93, and he'll get burned some but he'd rather get beat blitzing than sitting back and being soft.

Wonderfully writen LB. I agree. I was under a different impression of what we were talking about is all.

I thought the topic was defensive play on HB.

If we go into the whole generic O-Line debate I will fully agree. Not enough impact is put on the O-Line because the generics are wonderful. They are on par with a silver D-line I would say. Gold DE's I notice win more, but silver is pretty much deadlocked. Bronze I find they have zero impact 99% of the time. EVERY now and then the make a good play.

Now on the Linebacker side, yea some standard football 101 mechanics are not being used. BUT it is not broken to the point where you can't stop the run or pass. It makes it maybe harder BUT it is very possible.

I think on a whole though, the defense MIGHT be the under dog. I don't really know cause I have had zero problems stopping the run or the pass depending on how my team is setup.

[burnwood]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Wonderfully writen LB. I agree. I was under a different impression of what we were talking about is all.

I thought the topic was defensive play on HB.

If we go into the whole generic O-Line debate I will fully agree. Not enough impact is put on the O-Line because the generics are wonderful. They are on par with a silver D-line I would say. Gold DE's I notice win more, but silver is pretty much deadlocked. Bronze I find they have zero impact 99% of the time. EVERY now and then the make a good play.

Now on the Linebacker side, yea some standard football 101 mechanics are not being used. BUT it is not broken to the point where you can't stop the run or pass. It makes it maybe harder BUT it is very possible.

I think on a whole though, the defense MIGHT be the under dog. I don't really know cause I have had zero problems stopping the run or the pass depending on how my team is setup.

I'm curious. Why do you agree now? He's just expounding on what was initially said. Are you agreeing because of the eloquence of LB's post or are you now just opening up to the possibility of a problem with the soft defense in this game?