Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

[catcatch22]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

You must not do much at work since you have posted several times in the time frame that I work go pick up my wife and go home. I can only play saturday and sunday afternoon after EPL soccer on TV, friday and saturday night belong to me and the Mrs.

I am home now and eagerly await. Problem is your the one calling for this challenge like a child and you are calling everyone childish.

I just don't understand how if me or anyone else says something is wrong with the game they are "incredulous to playing the game" compared to your incredible skills while when LBzrule makes a post you say nothing like that at all and say I can see waht you are saying.

[HotShot232]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

You must not do much at work since you have posted several times in the time frame that I work go pick up my wife and go home. I can only play saturday and sunday afternoon after EPL soccer on TV, friday and saturday night belong to me and the Mrs.

I am home now and eagerly await. Problem is your the one calling for this challenge like a child and you are calling everyone childish.

I just don't understand how if me or anyone else says something is wrong with the game they are "incredulous to playing the game" compared to your incredible skills while when LBzrule makes a post you say nothing like that at all and say I can see waht you are saying.

LOL I am inside sales so I am at a computer all day long. Now as far me saying i am better I NEVER said but YET again i am defending myself for saying I don't have this problem. That other people don't have this problem. But you single me out for saying the same thing as others.

Cat i am leaving work in 15 min so i will be home in 30 mins, then I am going to catch something to eat. Talk to my girl for a sec then we will do some testing.

[burnwood]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

HotShot, just so you can clear this up for us again.

How do you understand the problem we are posting about?

Now don't mess this up cause the answer has been posted lots of times.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

OK since this thread is about the SOFT DEFENSE....I believe it was Burn that made a comment that only 2 or 3 of us idiots thought defense was balanced. So I went back through entire thread and wrote down the names between the two groups.

People thinking Defense is correct as is.
Red Ronin
Dirty South
Grunt
Mr. President
Bama
Tomb
Da_Kenny
Kcxiv
Doc_H
Rocky
Beal
Sleepy
Hotshot

People thinking Defense is soft
Illistrator
Masked
Burn
Dunley
Sven
LB
Catcatch
Gta

13 people saying Defense is Correct
8 People saying defense is soft

So your 2-3 comment just shows that WE that think it is right are NOT the minority. At least on this forum. I know online as well I have heard nothing about this until this thread.

Just more stats so people don't get skewed.

You make some good points and I agree with one thing, we do not need to deny others experience with the game. Some guys do not think the run game is over powered, some do. Now, some guys think the defense is correct as is. And some of us do not. Those are two different issues that are intertwined as we view the game. For those who think the defense is correct as is and the run game is not overpowered. What is the correctness that you see? This will actually pull what is under our statements to surface so that we can discuss better. I will tell you guys the incorrectness that I see defensively and I agree with you guys that the run game is not overpowered. As I have said in several other threads, it's not that the RB's are overpowered, to me the defense is lacking and that makes it seems like some guys are overpowered. I do not want VC to tone down the RB's at all. Leave Earl alone. But what I do want is better pursuit and defenders who will go to war with me.

1) Defensive Fronts are not align properly. This is key to run defense. Some guys may get by and do just fine with alignments that are not correct, but the issue is the alignments are just not correct and the game would be much better with correct alignments. The 46 Bear is a great addition to the game unfortunately the alignment is not where it needs to be. For one they have an outside linebacker down as a defensive lineman and that should not be the case. Two, the weak side defensive end should be in a wide seven technique that would put him at least a yard to a yard and a half outside of the offensive tackle. It's not big on the surface, but it is big in the game. If that OLB that is down as a lineman is man up on the TE and it is a pass play, by the time he gets up off the ground the TE, especially a legend TE is already 3 yards up the field so he is in a trailing position. If the weak side DE lined up in a wide 7 then you could generate some crazy pressure from the weak side, which you should be able too. There are two hall of fame guys that have played the weak side in this defensive front, Richard Dent and Reggie White. They were Terrors. Now if they had the DE in a wide 7 all you would need to do is blitz that MLB and force the tackle to block the MLB. Weak side DE is free all day. Crash your a$$ right down inside and destroy the QB from the backside.

They actually had this defensive alignment right in NFL 2k3, I do not know why they took it out for 2k4 and beyond but oh well. 44 Defense. First of all take the Safety out and replace him with another linebacker. That's a true 44 defense. In the 44 you should have the defensive ends play 7 technique on the inside shoulder of the TE. The Defensive tackles should be in a 3 tech on the outside shoulder of the guards. The inside linebackers should line up 4 to 5 yards off the ball with their outside foot on the inside shoulder of the Guards. Outside linebackers line up two yards off the line of scrimmage on the outside shoulder of the TE. Now what this alignment would do is make it hard for your a$$ to get outside. But alas, it's not in there. Now in real life when a team is having trouble stopping the run the logical thing for them to do is add an extra man. They drop into an 8 man front such as bear and 44. But in this game that is the problem rather than the solution. I'm just calling for it to mimic real life. After all we want real football here. I won't even touch 43 and 34 because I could write 10 pages and keep going.


2) Response time and take off speed - defenders are slower than offensive players. Specifically in the front 7. As the HB gets the ball he is almost at full speed, whereas the defender is just coming out of his read - specifically linebackers. I want to emphasize linebackers here because this is the group I have the biggest issue with. I am not satisfied with the way my guys are represented here. I'll say more on them in a little bit.

3) Random gap blitzing - to me this is not realistic. A coach does not draw up a blitz on the board for his players to decide that they want to do whatever they want to do. Hit the gap that you are assigned.

4) CB technique in deep zone - I've been through this one plenty of times. But all the current games suffer from it, even Madden and NCAA. The DB loses the package when he turns his back and starts running up the field. In the other two games they make up for it by letting every CB cheat as if he is not turned. But you can still complete passes on it. In All Pro you can get that pass in there as well. The WR gets inside position and once he gets that since the CB is out in front running up the field with his back turned, there is not much you can do about that except run a different coverage, which alot of the people I have played alot of the coverages are eerily similar to prevent this type of thing.

5) Imbalance in Legend dominance - I've been through this one as well. I do think there is an imbalance. The Legend Dline vs the Generic Oline is a prime example vs say Earl Campbell against 2 Generic Linebackers or Jerry Rice and Andre Reed, with Marino at QB vs a Generic secondary. Now in this last scenario most of us would agree that Marino Rice and Reed SHOULD own the generic secondary hands down. But why can't we agree that White, Deacon Jones and say Jerome Brown should own a generic Oline every play? It's the same thing just a different appearance. An appearance that alot of people would not want to face if it was anywhere close to what it should be.

6) Linebackers in General - heh you know this one is my pet peeve and I do not like it when I feel that this particular position is under represented in a football game. Now when I said the defense was soft this was the position I was referring to in particular. Let me explain. If any of you are on my friends list you know I live in practice mode, whether it be on All Pro Football or whether it be on Madden 08. There are some things I look at with the linebacker play and sometimes I either want to turn the game off or I put on my coaching hat. Outside linebackers are good when they are not blocked, but if the TE gets to them they are soft. Call any stretch play out of Ace. Call any zone defense even a zone where the OLB is blitzing. Now why on the snap does the TE get up the field two steps before the OLB even decides to move? Next thing you know Jackie Smith has planted your OLB into the dirt and is on his way to the third level to block the Safety. That's what I'm responding to when I say SOFT.

Balance in my eyes would be, MOVE when the TE moves. You are on the line of scrimmage, you read his head. If he tries to reach block you outside play with outside leverage. Do not allow him to reach you. Whatever you do you must turn this play back inside the alley where the traffic is. Do not allow him to get outside of you. Now this is better displayed with the Dline. All I call is Razor Rights and Lefts and they do a good job of getting the Dline out on the stretch plays and keeps them from getting reach blocked. But the OLB's do a very bad job and not only do they get reached, they get their a$$e$ handed to them by the TE. Matter of fact I will record it and show you exactly what I'm talking about. I will call a host of plays back to back and show it.

Middle linebacker, same play your key in 3-4 is the Guard through to the nearest back. If that guards head moves right or left and if the RB moves with the Guard, then you read step and scrape. Get your a$$ out of your stance and scrape down the line of scrimmage. In the 4-3 Middle Linebacker you gotta get to and fill that alley, you should have Safety help. If I am weak side linebacker, I should not be running pass the MLB and filling that alley because he's still in his read step because what that does is force me to play unsound football. If I have to compensate for the MLB not getting to the alley and filling it then that means I leave the backside wide open for cutbacks. What I would love to see by the linebackers is shuffling, scraping and crossover running so that their pads stay square to the line of scrimmage. I need to see EFFORT, INTENSITY and TOUGHNESS from these guys. Who is the arch Nemesis of the RB? The linebacker. GET THEM UP THE SNUFF!!!


As I said before, I don't think Lawrence Taylor could be done justice with the way the game is right now. Taylor was no ordinary guy. That's why I don't think Derrick Thomas is done justice in this game either. We talk about game planning for Earl, Barry ect., come on guys you cannot have forgotten that offenses game planned for LT, Derrick Thomas, Reggie White ect and even when they did many of their plans FAILED. WE are forced to plan for Earl in this game. WE have to plan for Barry. But who plans for Derrick Thomas? Who plans for Reggie White?


These are some of the issues I have with the game and why it is hard for me to grasp the defense as being "correct." Maybe "correct" is not the word you want to use. Because alignments are not correct. Some of the behaviors are not correct. Maybe "correct" does not get at what it is you are trying to get across. If you mean that you think the defense is fine as is then I can see that and will not refute that, even if from my point of view I don't agree.

[Illustrator76]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

agreed with you and kenny

Someone in one of the earlier posts stated that the guys at 2K said there were some balance issues especially on D, basically because they ran out of time to really fine tune the game...or something to that effect.

[Disasterpiece]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

I don't have too much trouble stopping the run.

[burnwood]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

That's a good explanation of what's happening LB. Lots of stuff that I didn't take notice of. I just know that something's not right when I play on defense as I don't have the in depth knowledge of the LB position. That's not saying that I'm a slouch, because I'm not.

Here's when I knew something was wrong with the LBs. When Ben Coates out jumps and beats Singletary for catches. LOL. Ben freakin Coates!

[RogueHominid]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

I love the coachspeak, LB Those guys should be intimidators--and you're right about Singletary, burnwood. His eyes, they never shut, they just look for things to slam into violently. He should play like that and he doesn't, and it leads to Coates and Metzelaars playing like the hall of famers they aren't. It's one thing to be generally thought of as tough over the middle; it's another to catch a drag or a curl in Lambert's or Singletary's zone. What's weird is that every now and then the safeties play like intimidators (I'm thinking Lott, Browner, Tatum), but they don't do it consistently enough, and it leads to a lack of respect for the middle of the defense. On this game, the middle frequently means easy yards, but in real life, those are hazardous yards, and only a select few even choose to try to make their living there. In my opinion, that should be represented better in the game. I think there is a difference between how Cliff Branch works the inside and how Rob Moore does, for sure, but I feel like the intimidation factor over the middle could be intensified given some of the figures the game has playing there. As an illustration, I played my brother the other night, and I could tell he hot-routed Singletary to Metzelaars. What did I do? Went right to Metz. because I knew it would be an easy completion in this game. That probably shouldn't be.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

That's a good explanation of what's happening LB. Lots of stuff that I didn't take notice of. I just know that something's not right when I play on defense as I don't have the in depth knowledge of the LB position. That's not saying that I'm a slouch, because I'm not.

Here's when I knew something was wrong with the LBs. When Ben Coates out jumps and beats Singletary for catches. LOL. Ben freakin Coates!

Don't sleep on Ben Winter Coates. He was a monster. Singletary was more of a run defender but he could play the zones well. Now if it is Pete Mezzalars that's when you should be screaming because even as big as he was he was a good catcher but he did not have good speed. The game gives him more speed than he should have.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Don't sleep on Ben Winter Coates. He was a monster. Singletary was more of a run defender but he could play the zones well. Now if it is Pete Mezzalars that's when you should be screaming because even as big as he was he was a good catcher but he did not have good speed. The game gives him more speed than he should have.

Pete Fuselage, as Berman used to call him He shouldn't be getting downfield on those corner routes like he does, I agree. And you're right about Coates--he was a downfield weapon, but I'm not sure that on a short route he'd keep as many in his cradle when hit by Mike as he does in the game, and the same goes for Ronnie and Joey.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Pete Fuselage, as Berman used to call him He shouldn't be getting downfield on those corner routes like he does, I agree. And you're right about Coates--he was a downfield weapon, but I'm not sure that on a short route he'd keep as many in his cradle when hit by Mike as he does in the game, and the same goes for Ronnie and Joey.

definitely, he'd cough quite a few up heh. But Coates isn't bad. Let me use Sharpe on you Sharpe is as good as Rice in this game. I made dunnelly hate Sharpe with a passion LOL. The one thing they need for Sharpe though is to have him talking a hell of alot more trash. He was the king of trash talk.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Man, I'd love to play you guys, but I'm on PS3. I'm just an average player, but it'd be fun to play some guys from here. The connection issues on PS3 have made it tough to play the few OSers who actually own PS3s, but whatever. I haven't seen Sharpe much, but I've got a team with Christensen, and I could imagine what kind of havoc someone with more speed at that position could wreak. Most people have no answer for Metzelaars, let alone a guy with Sharpe's ability. Do you think there's a coverage LB in the game that can even keep stride with him? I'd wonder how LeRoy Butler or Willie Wood would do.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Man, I'd love to play you guys, but I'm on PS3. I'm just an average player, but it'd be fun to play some guys from here. The connection issues on PS3 have made it tough to play the few OSers who actually own PS3s, but whatever. I haven't seen Sharpe much, but I've got a team with Christensen, and I could imagine what kind of havoc someone with more speed at that position could wreak. Most people have no answer for Metzelaars, let alone a guy with Sharpe's ability. Do you think there's a coverage LB in the game that can even keep stride with him? I'd wonder how LeRoy Butler or Willie Wood would do.

My first team had Sharpe and Coates and Marino at QB. I loved it. I moved Sharpe in alot of places and kept Coates at the normal TE spot. In Doubles I had Sharpe at Flanker and Branch/Taylor at Split End, Coates at TE and Slot was a generic guy. The thing with Sharpe is he has WR speed, but he has the height where you can throw it up high and he will jump in the air in front of the DB to snag passes. My favorite formation with that team is Ace Quads.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Yup, I'm glad I can't play you

[TombSong]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

LB:

On points 1 and 2The speed of the defense at the start of a play is slow, the techniques, and players and formations are not all "real world" football correct, I can agree with you there. However, The game as it is setup though not totally correct allows you to do whatever it is you intend to do.

Whatever you want to take away from a offense can be taken away. If this was not so it would validate even more your points about things not being technically correct, but the game despite not being 100% correct does 100% allow you to do what you want to do.

Point 3 I 100% agree with you there.

Point 4 goes inline with my response to your first 2 points. The technique aint correct, but you can attest to seeing people call coverages that will shutdown whatever routes you want taken away.

point 5 Player imbalance is gonna be subjective. Thats all based off each persons point of view on how certain players should play. I have seen Rice simply trash other legends, and I have also seen him get covered well by generics. I have seen a Dline with no legends get good pressure on a QB, and also lines with legends. Heat can be brought in this game. In Madden it is "easier" to bring heat because they come so fast, but the same thing can be done in AP2K8, just not as easy. I can see how many would like Maddens pass rush better than AP2K8, but if you think about it, Maddens Pass rush negates the need for having a good defensive line. You dont even need good LB's. Just send a blitz with any defense and they all apply pressure well. This is a facet that Ap2K8 shines. You can't just rely on the CPU to make plays for you and the teams all have their own personality.

Point 6 I can agree with alot of that, but I go back to points 1 and 2. The game despite having these technique flaws still allows you to shutdown what you intend to shutdown. Maybe not the way you want or should be done, but it can be done.

What does frustrate me is sometimes I do see players on both sides of the ball do some weird stuff. Miss blocks, go in directions you did not intend them to go, and sometimes react really slow. These are all issues that need to be fixed along with the correctness/techniques of the game you refer to.

The only thing I would stress to the guys having problems is when you play online, dont worry so much about winning but rather improving what you are weak in. Test different defenses against what you are having trouble defending. Believe me, you will eventually figure it out.

That guy Black Bolt I played yesterday who was handing me my azz, played me again tonight. He used Snell at HB, had Rice, Elway, some others that I cant remember. In the game yesterday he had me off balance and thinking too much about my offense, even when I was playing defense, because of the pressure he was putting on me. This is one thing you can never allow when playing online, getting so rattled and frustrated to the point you are not playing YOUR game and not thinking clearly.

In the game this evening, Snell got a few good runs, but in the 2nd half he was shutdown. Once I figured out where he liked to run I called line stunts that took that away from him(Had him so frustrated he was pausing to look at the replays). I dont think he could believe I was shutting down his running attack. He then had to resort to motioning rice and what not...I SHUTDOWN rice.

Once I got that taken care of I had to deal with my own arrogance of trying to run pass plays from under center with Ken Obrien. I could not get a good drop back without getting sacked. I then(grudgingly) went to shotgun formation(I dont like running my O from shotgun). Shoutgun solved my problem, however. His super blitz was negated and I started picking him apart. Mixed in some good runs, and before I knew it, I was up 17-14 with 3 mins left in the 4th. He got the ball and I pretty much sacked him back to a 4th and long inside his own 10, then sacked him for a safety. After I got the ball back.........he quit.