Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

[burnwood]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Don't sleep on Ben Winter Coates. He was a monster. Singletary was more of a run defender but he could play the zones well. Now if it is Pete Mezzalars that's when you should be screaming because even as big as he was he was a good catcher but he did not have good speed. The game gives him more speed than he should have.

I remember Ben sparingly from the old days with the Pats. But I don't remember him being a beast. I made him a beast in the old Madden days though. I guess I remember more of him when he was a Raven. You know, when he sucked. LOL. When he came here I knew that was the end of his career.

[grunt]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

LB:

On points 1 and 2The speed of the defense at the start of a play is slow, the techniques, and players and formations are not all "real world" football correct, I can agree with you there. However, The game as it is setup though not totally correct allows you to do whatever it is you intend to do.

Whatever you want to take away from a offense can be taken away. If this was not so it would validate even more your points about things not being technically correct, but the game despite not being 100% correct does 100% allow you to do what you want to do.

Point 3 I 100% agree with you there.

Point 4 goes inline with my response to your first 2 points. The technique aint correct, but you can attest to seeing people call coverages that will shutdown whatever routes you want taken away.

point 5 Player imbalance is gonna be subjective. Thats all based off each persons point of view on how certain players should play. I have seen Rice simply trash other legends, and I have also seen him get covered well by generics. I have seen a Dline with no legends get good pressure on a QB, and also lines with legends. Heat can be brought in this game. In Madden it is "easier" to bring heat because they come so fast, but the same thing can be done in AP2K8, just not as easy. I can see how many would like Maddens pass rush better than AP2K8, but if you think about it, Maddens Pass rush negates the need for having a good defensive line. You dont even need good LB's. Just send a blitz with any defense and they all apply pressure well. This is a facet that Ap2K8 shines. You can't just rely on the CPU to make plays for you and the teams all have their own personality.

Point 6 I can agree with alot of that, but I go back to points 1 and 2. The game despite having these technique flaws still allows you to shutdown what you intend to shutdown. Maybe not the way you want or should be done, but it can be done.

What does frustrate me is sometimes I do see players on both sides of the ball do some weird stuff. Miss blocks, go in directions you did not intend them to go, and sometimes react really slow. These are all issues that need to be fixed along with the correctness/techniques of the game you refer to.

The only thing I would stress to the guys having problems is when you play online, dont worry so much about winning but rather improving what you are weak in. Test different defenses against what you are having trouble defending. Believe me, you will eventually figure it out.

That guy Black Bolt I played yesterday who was handing me my azz, played me again tonight. He used Snell at HB, had Rice, Elway, some others that I cant remember. In the game yesterday he had me off balance and thinking too much about my offense, even when I was playing defense, because of the pressure he was putting on me. This is one thing you can never allow when playing online, getting so rattled and frustrated to the point you are not playing YOUR game and not thinking clearly.

In the game this evening, Snell got a few good runs, but in the 2nd half he was shutdown. Once I figured out where he liked to run I called line stunts that took that away from him(Had him so frustrated he was pausing to look at the replays). I dont think he could believe I was shutting down his running attack. He then had to resort to motioning rice and what not...I SHUTDOWN rice.

Once I got that taken care of I had to deal with my own arrogance of trying to run pass plays from under center with Ken Obrien. I could not get a good drop back without getting sacked. I then(grudgingly) went to shotgun formation(I dont like running my O from shotgun). Shoutgun solved my problem, however. His super blitz was negated and I started picking him apart. Mixed in some good runs, and before I knew it, I was up 17-14 with 3 mins left in the 4th. He got the ball and I pretty much sacked him back to a 4th and long inside his own 10, then sacked him for a safety. After I got the ball back.........he quit.

Good post.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

I remember Ben sparingly from the old days with the Pats. But I don't remember him being a beast. I made him a beast in the old Madden days though. I guess I remember more of him when he was a Raven. You know, when he sucked. LOL. When he came here I knew that was the end of his career.

He had 96 catches in one season. At that time it was the most ever for a TE. Gonzales came along and broke it later.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

LB:

On points 1 and 2The speed of the defense at the start of a play is slow, the techniques, and players and formations are not all "real world" football correct, I can agree with you there. However, The game as it is setup though not totally correct allows you to do whatever it is you intend to do.

Whatever you want to take away from a offense can be taken away. If this was not so it would validate even more your points about things not being technically correct, but the game despite not being 100% correct does 100% allow you to do what you want to do.

Point 3 I 100% agree with you there.

Point 4 goes inline with my response to your first 2 points. The technique aint correct, but you can attest to seeing people call coverages that will shutdown whatever routes you want taken away.

point 5 Player imbalance is gonna be subjective. Thats all based off each persons point of view on how certain players should play. I have seen Rice simply trash other legends, and I have also seen him get covered well by generics. I have seen a Dline with no legends get good pressure on a QB, and also lines with legends. Heat can be brought in this game. In Madden it is "easier" to bring heat because they come so fast, but the same thing can be done in AP2K8, just not as easy. I can see how many would like Maddens pass rush better than AP2K8, but if you think about it, Maddens Pass rush negates the need for having a good defensive line. You dont even need good LB's. Just send a blitz with any defense and they all apply pressure well. This is a facet that Ap2K8 shines. You can't just rely on the CPU to make plays for you and the teams all have their own personality.

Point 6 I can agree with alot of that, but I go back to points 1 and 2. The game despite having these technique flaws still allows you to shutdown what you intend to shutdown. Maybe not the way you want or should be done, but it can be done.

What does frustrate me is sometimes I do see players on both sides of the ball do some weird stuff. Miss blocks, go in directions you did not intend them to go, and sometimes react really slow. These are all issues that need to be fixed along with the correctness/techniques of the game you refer to.

The only thing I would stress to the guys having problems is when you play online, dont worry so much about winning but rather improving what you are weak in. Test different defenses against what you are having trouble defending. Believe me, you will eventually figure it out.

That guy Black Bolt I played yesterday who was handing me my azz, played me again tonight. He used Snell at HB, had Rice, Elway, some others that I cant remember. In the game yesterday he had me off balance and thinking too much about my offense, even when I was playing defense, because of the pressure he was putting on me. This is one thing you can never allow when playing online, getting so rattled and frustrated to the point you are not playing YOUR game and not thinking clearly.

In the game this evening, Snell got a few good runs, but in the 2nd half he was shutdown. Once I figured out where he liked to run I called line stunts that took that away from him(Had him so frustrated he was pausing to look at the replays). I dont think he could believe I was shutting down his running attack. He then had to resort to motioning rice and what not...I SHUTDOWN rice.

Once I got that taken care of I had to deal with my own arrogance of trying to run pass plays from under center with Ken Obrien. I could not get a good drop back without getting sacked. I then(grudgingly) went to shotgun formation(I dont like running my O from shotgun). Shoutgun solved my problem, however. His super blitz was negated and I started picking him apart. Mixed in some good runs, and before I knew it, I was up 17-14 with 3 mins left in the 4th. He got the ball and I pretty much sacked him back to a 4th and long inside his own 10, then sacked him for a safety. After I got the ball back.........he quit.

Yes even with messed up things the game allows you to take things away. I'll agree with that, but the issue here is not about taking things away. The issue is one of REPRESENTATION. You want to take away the run, put less men at the line of scrimmage. Instead of getting in 44 and Bear, stay in 43 or even better yet, run Nickel and Nickel 335. That's the old Madden's in my eyes and not a realistic representation of what a real team would do. When a real team is having trouble with the run, it is because they are in 43 or 34. So they switch up their fronts. When that doesn't work the drop another man into the box.

You guys have said that 43 is better than Bear and 44 at run stopping. The one guy that I played that shut down almost everything I had, he ran Nickel 335 and Dime 32 basically the entire game. Moved the linebackers back by about 10 yards and they never get blocked. He gave up the run up the middle. He let me have the 3 to 4 yards there, but kept the passing game under wraps. That's just not realistic to me. Moving the linebacker way back so he won't get blocked ect.


Per blitzing and Madden. It's not that I prefer Madden's blitzing. Again the issue is representation. I prefer the SPEED of the blitzes because if a guy is free it should not be taking him 5 seconds to get to the QB whether I am controlling him or not. He should not be running around outside to the sideline at times nor should he be looping where it is not drawn up for him to loop. If anything the pass blocking scheme in 2k is very realistic.

The blitzing is not a good representation in terms of Speed. The speed of the blitz in madden is a much better representation. Notice what I am not saying here. I am not saying WHERE they are coming from in Madden is a better representation or more realistic. In Madden the A gap has been that way going on 9 years. But the thing is, if a guy is free he is hollering whether you are in control or not. In 2k you do not get that, even if the guy is free. In real football if a guy is free to rush the passer he's going to move like the guy in Madden maybe faster, not like the 2k guy.

Per Legends being imbalanced being subjective. In some respects I don't think that is subjective at all. Earl and the rest on O have the ability to put up stats like they did in real life. Derrick Thomas will never have the 7 game sack performance that he had in real life in this game and will never come close to it. Again the issue is representation. Thomas is not represented as that guy that is a terror coming off the edge. He is not represented as the guy that has the potential to drop 7 sacks on you or as one that would drop 3 to 4 sacks on you which he did a great deal of times in real life.


I can agree that results matter. But I'm not going to be satisfied simply because I get the result I'm looking for. Representation also matters. And I think more accurate representation leads to more accurate and even better results.

And lastly, that's the whole point. If I cannot game plan and do things the way I want to do them as a user should I not be frustrated. Instead of having flexibility I have to over compensate and do a great deal of micro managing over guys that I shouldn't have to.

[TombSong]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

LB,

I am not disagreeing with you on any points you made about things needing to be corrected as far as the looping LB's, player speed, and what fronts work against what and how they are setup.

I think on the issue of gameplans/techniques, it SEEMS you are looking for specific schemes that you are familiar with and thats cool, and it would be nice to be able to have a football game that allows you to setup your D and O exactly how you want. Looking at it from a programming point of view though, that would mean player adjustable AI like in the old Front Page football games on the PC. These console games are not setup that way. They setup and balance the plays and players so that you can execute basic football plays and if you are a savy enough player to figure out what works againts what, you will be successful. The only latitude you have with the consoles is hot routes/formation shifts/package setups. You are left to pretty much know what plays maximise your star players abilities and play off your opponents tendencies to maximise that even more. Thats basic football and thats all they are really giving us on consoles.

As for players playing representative of their real world personas, You gotta play the game and setup your team around those guys in a way that puts them in position to play that way.

Example: If I have Derrick Thomas on my team but never call blitzes for him, or dont call blitzes or setup blitzes that allow him to use the skillz they have blessed him with in the game, how can I complain ? I think some people just expect their star players to just do it all automaticly. Also if you happen to be running blitzes and the Offense is keeping in 6-7 to block, thats gonna negate some of the things you do blitzwise. Thats called controlling Derrick Thomas. How can I get mad he is not getting major sacks if the Opponent is doing things to control him ?

To me Thomas has served his role as impact player if I am causing the Offense to have to keep in 7 to block. I have just made the offense have to adjust to MY game because of 1 player. He may not be getting sacks but he IS disrupting the offense, and maybe even enabling one of my other legends to rack up sacks.

People are looking too much for a replication of the real world on their video games. If Derrick Thomas does not get EXACTLY the same amount of sacks per game as he does in the real world, something must be wrong with the game. They give no consideration to the fact that HEY, we are NOT playing against people who play like or gameplan like the coaches Derrick Thomas had to face in the real world. We are playing Taco Joe, who is drunk as hell, and came home and jumped online to play a game of football, and max protects on passing plays, and is a ground pounder so he rarely throw the ball or Bill Walsh wanna be in CA, who runs 5 wide sets EVERY down, so you pretty much CANT blitz him because he is 1..2..3.. PASS.

What is Derrick Thomas stats gonna look like against people like that ?

Believe me, I am with you on 99% of what you say, but I am also looking at the big picture too.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

LB,

I am not disagreeing with you on any points you made about things needing to be corrected as far as the looping LB's, player speed, and what fronts work against what and how they are setup.

I think on the issue of gameplans/techniques, it SEEMS you are looking for specific schemes that you are familiar with and thats cool, and it would be nice to be able to have a football game that allows you to setup your D and O exactly how you want. Looking at it from a programming point of view though, that would mean player adjustable AI like in the old Front Page football games on the PC. These console games are not setup that way. They setup and balance the plays and players so that you can execute basic football plays and if you are a savy enough player to figure out what works againts what, you will be successful. The only latitude you have with the consoles is hot routes/formation shifts/package setups. You are left to pretty much know what plays maximise your star players abilities and play off your opponents tendencies to maximise that even more. Thats basic football and thats all they are really giving us on consoles.

As for players playing representative of their real world personas, You gotta play the game and setup your team around those guys in a way that puts them in position to play that way.

Example: If I have Derrick Thomas on my team but never call blitzes for him, or dont call blitzes or setup blitzes that allow him to use the skillz they have blessed him with in the game, how can I complain ? I think some people just expect their star players to just do it all automaticly. Also if you happen to be running blitzes and the Offense is keeping in 6-7 to block, thats gonna negate some of the things you do blitzwise. Thats called controlling Derrick Thomas. How can I get mad he is not getting major sacks if the Opponent is doing things to control him ?

To me Thomas has served his role as impact player if I am causing the Offense to have to keep in 7 to block. I have just made the offense have to adjust to MY game because of 1 player. He may not be getting sacks but he IS disrupting the offense, and maybe even enabling one of my other legends to rack up sacks.

People are looking too much for a replication of the real world on their video games. If Derrick Thomas does not get EXACTLY the same amount of sacks per game as he does in the real world, something must be wrong with the game. They give no consideration to the fact that HEY, we are NOT playing against people who play like or gameplan like the coaches Derrick Thomas had to face in the real world. We are playing Taco Joe, who is drunk as hell, and came home and jumped online to play a game of football, and max protects on passing plays, and is a ground pounder so he rarely throw the ball or Bill Walsh wanna be in CA, who runs 5 wide sets EVERY down, so you pretty much CANT blitz him because he is 1..2..3.. PASS.

What is Derrick Thomas stats gonna look like against people like that ?

Believe me, I am with you on 99% of what you say, but I am also looking at the big picture too.

I'm looking at the big picture too. Just from a different angle.

As for players playing representative of their real world personas, You gotta play the game and setup your team around those guys in a way that puts them in position to play that way.

Example: If I have Derrick Thomas on my team but never call blitzes for him, or dont call blitzes or setup blitzes that allow him to use the skillz they have blessed him with in the game, how can I complain ? I think some people just expect their star players to just do it all automaticly. Also if you happen to be running blitzes and the Offense is keeping in 6-7 to block, thats gonna negate some of the things you do blitzwise. Thats called controlling Derrick Thomas. How can I get mad he is not getting major sacks if the Opponent is doing things to control him ?

To me Thomas has served his role as impact player if I am causing the Offense to have to keep in 7 to block. I have just made the offense have to adjust to MY game because of 1 player. He may not be getting sacks but he IS disrupting the offense, and maybe even enabling one of my other legends to rack up sacks.

The example that you use is exactly what I'm referring too. I try to get Derrick Thomas in places for him to make plays but he does not play with authority even when I put him in those places. The people I have played never max protect. They do not use the Offensive line protection. They do not have Legend Olinemen and in that scenario I do expect a player like Derrick Thomas to shine, but he does not. I expect any linebacker with common sense to not simply stand there and let the TE knock him to the ground on a consistent basis on running plays.

Alot of these guys that we play online do not even look for coverage reads, they just come to the line and quick hike. They do not set up anything offensively. You actually think I want Thomas to be dominating when someone keeps in 7 to block? I'm calling for balance, not craziness. But that's the deal, I don't see anyone trying to control Derrick Thomas. But I see alot of people trying to contain Earl Campbell and Jerry Rice. I agree with what you say there, but my claim is on offense people do not have to do what you present in the example and they can get along in the game just fine.

People are looking too much for a replication of the real world on their video games. If Derrick Thomas does not get EXACTLY the same amount of sacks per game as he does in the real world, something must be wrong with the game. They give no consideration to the fact that HEY, we are NOT playing against people who play like or gameplan like the coaches Derrick Thomas had to face in the real world. We are playing Taco Joe, who is drunk as hell, and came home and jumped online to play a game of football, and max protects on passing plays, and is a ground pounder so he rarely throw the ball or Bill Walsh wanna be in CA, who runs 5 wide sets EVERY down, so you pretty much CANT blitz him because he is 1..2..3.. PASS.

No something is wrong with the game when Derrick Thomas is acting soft and not getting his *** after the quarterback and the offense is attempting to single block him with a generic guy. If you want to single block Thomas you should be forced to draft Munoz. Other wise you should have to go with the scenario you presented earlier (leave in 6 or 7 to block). If Taco Joe is running 5 WR every down then Thomas should be bringing it against generic offensive linemen because he is single blocked.

[totalownership]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

They give no consideration to the fact that HEY, we are NOT playing against people who play like or gameplan like the coaches Derrick Thomas had to face in the real world. We are playing Taco Joe, who is drunk as hell, and came home and jumped online to play a game of football, and max protects on passing plays, and is a ground pounder so he rarely throw the ball or Bill Walsh wanna be in CA, who runs 5 wide sets EVERY down, so you pretty much CANT blitz him because he is 1..2..3.. PASS.

What is Derrick Thomas stats gonna look like against people like that ?

Believe me, I am with you on 99% of what you say, but I am also looking at the big picture too.

That's funny as hell but very much true. That's the one thing people don't take into account when playing online.

[dunelly]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

I think the main problem is people's thinking.

People think gameplanning for jerry rice is sim.
People don't think you should have to gameplan for defenders.
A gold offensive players seems to make 2x the impact of a gold defensive player.
Reggie White doesn't dominate the same way Earl Campbell dominates in this game.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

That's funny as hell but very much true. That's the one thing people don't take into account when playing online.

I don't think that what's the irritating thing though. I used to play Madden on the PS2 with ODogg all the time and Odogg would have his beers because he said the only way he could play madden and enjoy it was if he was drunk LOL. So I know the crowd. The issue is the game allows people to get away with some wacked out things and if it was tuned more tightly they would not be able to get away with stupid things. The game should not be turned only for Taco Joe to have fun. It should be tuned for everyone to have fun no matter who they are playing.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

One more thing too. It's not like people do not know what they are doing. Dunnelly is ranked 23 right now and he still thinks the defense is LACKING. He has shut guys out, but still realizes the defense is not where it needs to be.

[burnwood]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

One more thing too. It's not like people do not know what they are doing. Dunnelly is ranked 23 right now and he still thinks the defense is LACKING. He has shut guys out, but still realizes the defense is not where it needs to be.

23? Hmmm... sounds like he would give me the business.

We'll see. I'll play him as soon as I fix some technical issues at home.

[TombSong]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

One more thing too. It's not like people do not know what they are doing. Dunnelly is ranked 23 right now and he still thinks the defense is LACKING. He has shut guys out, but still realizes the defense is not where it needs to be.

I dont think anyone disagress with that sentiment. I think the argument is over whether or not you can stop all the RBs in this game or are able to stop whatever you want to stop

[catcatch22]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

I dont think anyone disagress with that sentiment. I think the argument is over whether or not you can stop all the RBs in this game or are able to stop whatever you want to stop

When I say the running backs are overpowered, I meant in the aspect that my defense is not equal to the task of stopping it even when I have guys setup to specifically do so. I will have Carson, Pepper, Banks and others all there in position and set to make tackles. However they get bowled over by the backs with broken tackles time and time again. The great defensive players do not match the great offensive players.

Also I want to run my classic Giants shut you down 3-4. I shouldn't have to be stuck running a 4-3 defense because it's the only defense that is stable enough to stop running. I remember one game during the 1990 superbowl season fro the giants when they played the Detroit Lions in Gaints Stadium and beat the Lions 20 - 0. I remember the game vividly as they shut down barry to I think less than 20 yards rushing.

Unfortunately those type of defenses are hard to replicate in this game because the Linebackes are not as strong as they should be. They are not the Hard Hitting, body launching, run you down, tackle monsters they should be. That is why I say the runnning game is overpowered.

Now if they gave the defense that extra boost needed to hang with the offense in all formations as its supposed to then the way they have the run game setup would be fine. I just want my 4 Giant linebackers of the early 80's to early 90's to play like they way they were supposed to and be feared as if I created gang green, fearsome foursome or the Hogs Oline.

[jfsolo]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

I dont think anyone disagress with that sentiment. I think the argument is over whether or not you can stop all the RBs in this game or are able to stop whatever you want to stop

While its clear that you would like for them to improve the process, you seem to have a certain amount of contentment with being able to achieve results even if you have to "game" the game so to speak.

For others that simply isn't enough. Not being able to succeed by using certain personnel and tried and true football principals, quickly becomes too frustrating an experience regardless of statistical success or number of W's.

The "HOW" is as important as the "WHAT"

[TombSong]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

While its clear that you would like for them to improve the process, you seem to have a certain amount of contentment with being able to achieve results even if you have to "game" the game so to speak.

For others that simply isn't enough. Not being able to succeed by using certain personnel and tried and true football principals, quickly becomes too frustrating an experience regardless of statistical success or number of W's.

The "HOW" is as important as the "WHAT"

I understand that. I am not saying anyone is wrong in what they are saying. I agree with the premise that the games football fundamentals needs ironing out and there are things happening in the game that by default limit the user. I hope we get another game next year with all these issues fixed.

At the moment though the game as it is does allow you to accomplish what you intend to do on offense and defense. Thats the issue I am speaking to. We finally got a game that is setup where you can play good offense and defense and not have that "cheating" feeling. There are no money routes, the run can be stopped, all this without having a "cheating" defense or offense. I am clear on yalls points on the elite defenders.

Its just when I am playing online my "elite" players seem to handle their business like I expect. The part that does irk me is when they dont always go were you think they should.

I will ask that we all do this at the end of each game. Lets keep track of how many tackles/sacks/ints your legend players make at the end of each game.

I say that because my thinking is this:

How many times a game is it reasonable for Mike Singletary to tackle Barry Sanders in a one on one situation ? If this encounter happens 20 times in one game how many would Barry win in real life and how many would Mike win ? Who decides that ? You KNOW Lion fans/Pro offense fans are gonna say Barry should shake his socks off, more and Bears fans/Pro defense fans are gonna say Mike should kill him more. Who would be right ? How should that be decided in the game and seem fair to all these points of view ?