Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

[Sven Draconian]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

And that, LBzrule, is why this game kills me sometimes.

You call the perfect play and have it executed perfect and Earl just destroys it anyway. Even if he was to shake off that hit (which shouldn't happen, but lets just say)....

He shouldn't even have the balance to get up to speed to break anything else. He should make that play, but pickup maybe 5....not 43 and a score.

If Earl gets 20+ carries, he's breaking off a huge one at some point most games. There is not scheme that can account for 4+ broken tackles on a single play.

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

And that, LBzrule, is why this game kills me sometimes.

You call the perfect play and have it executed perfect and Earl just destroys it anyway. Even if he was to shake off that hit (which shouldn't happen, but lets just say)....

He shouldn't even have the balance to get up to speed to break anything else. He should make that play, but pickup maybe 5....not 43 and a score.

If Earl gets 20+ carries, he's breaking off a huge one at some point most games. There is not scheme that can account for 4+ broken tackles on a single play.

Yeah, very annoying. I just played someone with a created TE, I guess it was supposed to be Kellen Winslow by the look of the unis. I won the game by 10 but that TE was not fun to deal with. I'll just say, he tore it up out there LOL. I even put Barney on him for when I went to man and played with Butler over the top. He still forced passes in there for completions. One of the big reasons is the control. Defensive control is a bit slippery. If it had any stability at all and the auto-strafe didn't kick in by surprise I could have picked off quite a few passes with Butler. It wasn't like I didn't know where he was throwing it.

[TheShizNo1]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

I've read a lot of things, and I guess(excuse my ignorance) I don't quite understand the argument.

Is it that the offense are too powerful or the defense isn't good enough?
I played Campbell last night, and although I held him to under 100yds, he was not fun to deal with.

But after seeing something on ESPN, he run through and away from people. I didn't really see much of a difference between him in the game and real life(at least in his prime).

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

I've read a lot of things, and I guess(excuse my ignorance) I don't quite understand the argument.

Is it that the offense are too powerful or the defense isn't good enough?
I played Campbell last night, and although I held him to under 100yds, he was not fun to deal with.

But after seeing something on ESPN, he run through and away from people. I didn't really see much of a difference between him in the game and real life(at least in his prime).

It's the latter. Also ESPN shows you one side. You only see the highlight reel. There are several times Earl got owned but you will not see that when the documentary is highlighting that player.

[Cobra84]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

I've read a lot of things, and I guess(excuse my ignorance) I don't quite understand the argument.
Is it that the offense are too powerful or the defense isn't good enough?

Some of the issues are the broken interactions between the sides, so you can't say its just one. Does Earl Campbell break too many tackles or its it the defense that can't tackle? Offensive legends are better than their defensive counterparts, Willie brown has no chance of covering Rice even somewhat consistently.

Of course there are the solely defensive issues - completely blown coverage, reaction times that are measured in minutes, and other idiotic crap.

The point is that the offense ends up being far better than the defense, why doesn't really matter because we can't change it ourselves.

But after seeing something on ESPN, he run through and away from people. I didn't really see much of a difference between him in the game and real life(at least in his prime).

Highlights are just that, highlights. They show great plays, not average ones. If Campbell broke 3 tackles and then ran for 40 yards once every few games he would be fine. When he does it a few times a game it is overdone.

On a somewhat related note, why are all the complaints about Campbell? I have far more trouble against OJ. He's just way too fast and agile and has just enough power. On a draw, he can reach my linebackers before they can even react. On outside runs, no one that can catch him can tackle him and no one that can tackle him can catch him.

[adriano]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

Im on the verge of giving up with this game. I just can't stop a gold RB. It doesn't matter how my team is made up, it doesn't matter what I call and it honestly does't matter about anything I do if hte opponent can play RB even decently.

I just played a game versus a guy with Barry. He ran just two plays, I strong spread pitch and iso. Thats it. I went 4-4, I slanted, stunted, fan, pinch, blitz, zone everything...nothing worked. I have 2 gold corners that routinely got pancaked by generic WR. I had Perry and Salu at DT vs a generic Oline and they would get pushed back.

Id slant and blitz the strong side and Id hit him 4 times by the time he gained 4 yards....and he'd still break it for 10...15...50. My backside LB always got picked up by the center and TE (despite having a better DL than they had OL).

Its even worse with Earl Campbell. One game this morning I had a play where I had *6* people hit him...and he broke a 60 yard TD.
Then he'd just run a simple swing pass and destroy the man to man coverage. He'd catch it, blow throgh the defender and then either only get 15 and knocked out of bounds....or 30 if he trucked the 2nd defender. I'd play cover 2 and the corner in the flats (Lem Barney) couldn't take him down...or just not play the ball.

But its not justthe running game. I made a line of Youngblood/Lilly/Salu/Simmons and couldn't get a sack vs a completely generic Oline. I was getting no penetration...no rush...nothing. Thats a Gold/Silver and 2 bronze vs generics and I couldn't sniff the QB.

I've made a team with 2 gold corners Tatum so I could play just 4-4. Not only did I get hurt against the run still...but I was getting beat by Alvin Harper...a bronze WR. I knew what plays were coming.....I'd call cover 2 man coverages...cover 2 zones....cover 3...straight man...bump...lose. Doesn't matter they could still pass.

It's incredibly frustrating that the defense is so completely underpowered as compared to offensive players. You *KNOW* a gold offensive player is going to make a huge impact every game....a gold defender can be beaten by bronze and even generic players.

Try playing it with performance EQ.. It should tone the stamina down a lil on the elite backs.. I know with 2k it helped some with the really hard players Eddie George, etc.. they were still hard to stop but as a whole the teams AI was way better.. and it limited the BS 10 break tackles thing

all Performance EQ does is raise up the bottom of the rosters attributes.. Even tho you cant see their attributes players have rating values..a 50 rated player will become a 65.. a 99 rated player will become a 89.. Gives the generics better AI

At least it did on 2k5 I was told its in all pro..

[LBzrule]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

LOL look on the bright side, at least the linebackers in 2k are not the softest football video game players. The Offensive lines in Madden and NCAA are the SOFTEST bunch of ******S I have seen in my life. I got one of the most dominant offensive tackles in the last decade in Jon Ogden and at times he does not know who to block so he blocks no one, or he let's some scrub use Reggie White's club move and throw him right out of the way. Is this the man I have been watching for the last 10 years? HELL NO!!! Meanwhile you can have the Chiefs or Chargers Offensive line and the guys pull on counters very gingerly as if they are trying to be careful. They pull with no type of authority whatsoever. Miss blocks on the pull and generally seem to not care about their RB or QB. What the hell is that bullsh@t? Their conception of offensive linemen seems to be the couch hog who eats jelly donuts all day and moves like a sloth.

[TheShizNo1]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

LOL look on the bright side, at least the linebackers in 2k are not the softest football video game players. The Offensive lines in Madden and NCAA are the SOFTEST bunch of ******S I have seen in my life. I got one of the most dominant offensive tackles in the last decade in Jon Ogden and at times he does not know who to block so he blocks no one, or he let's some scrub use Reggie White's club move and throw him right out of the way. Is this the man I have been watching for the last 10 years? HELL NO!!! Meanwhile you can have the Chiefs or Chargers Offensive line and the guys pull on counters very gingerly as if they are trying to be careful. They pull with no type of authority whatsoever. Miss blocks on the pull and generally seem to not care about their RB or QB. What the hell is that bullsh@t? Their conception of offensive linemen seems to be the coach hog who eats jelly donuts all day and moves like a sloth.

That's another thing I've loved about APF. The lineman have what seems like real life interaction. And when the lineman pull, I feel like their looking for someone to lay on their ***.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

That's another thing I've loved about APF. The lineman have what seems like real life interaction. And when the lineman pull, I feel like their looking for someone to lay on their ***.

I'd have to agree somewhat with their point though. Defenders in the game could use some slight tweaking to bring them up to par w/their offensive counterparts. It was funny LBz mentioned Reggie White - yesterday I saw a sweet club/swim double move that I had to record because it was so cool. But you'd think in the game players like Reggie, Lee Roy Selmon, etc. would be a little more dominant. I don't think it has to be by much, just saying that they should be a little more of a factor. Upping the legends defensive tackling a bit would go a ways towards lessening the frustration of seeing Sayers/Campbell/OJ break multiple tackle attempts in succession.

The ingredients are really all there for VC to make the appropriate defenders play really nasty. While I think some slight tweaking would help for balancing the online play more, I could only imagine what they could do if they were to bring the game out next year and really infuse some attitude w/guys like Greg Lloyd, Lott, Night Train, etc. since they have the freedom to add that trash talk/intimidation factor into the game. Which really could go both ways. I've just started getting my feet wet online and while I haven't run across anyone that's been unstoppable, I can see that the game overall would benefit from tweaking the defenders some to reward people that play smart defense. Some guys out there have nothing yet can get by on a steady helping of Ditka or some other player. But considering my Pittsburgh team wasn't geared for online play and I've been able to play with pretty much anyone, I feel pretty good that the game is nicely balanced. Some tweaks here or there will make it play that much sweeter.

[xrams]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

what console are you running spank...!?!?

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

what console are you running spank...!?!?

360

GT: d0meBreaker (that's a zero)

Dan Marino is KILLING me. I love playing with him, love his quick release, love the zip on passes... But damn if interceptions aren't killing me (hey, it's not MY fault). Keep coming up short in close games. Really like that I seem to be able to play w/anyone even though my teams are mostly geared for offline play

[grunt]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

What if Earl played on a team with Rice or any dominant wr and a pro bowl qb. He would have been unstoppable. I am 37 and remember Earl playing football and he was close to being unstoppable. I almost remember him at Texas. When you play APF Earl is playing on a dream team. You don't only have to stop Earl but a silver wr and a bronze te.

If Earl was playing with that type of talent no team would have been able to stop Earl. They used to call the Oilers the Houston Campbells. He was the team. He tore a hole through an Hall of Fame defensive unit called the Steel Curtain. They stopped him in the playoff but just the fact he was able to get his money against one of the greatest defensive units ever is saying something.

He was the most punishing running back ever. Now, how do you make him in a video game. When I heard Earl was in the game I knew it would be trouble. He ran with more power than Bettis but with a speed of a much smaller back. I wish some could watch a whole game with Earl instead of highlights. Look at his career. He had a short career. He made the football hall of fame based on 4 solid years but those years were very, very special.


Peace

[TombSong]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

What if Earl played on a team with Rice or any dominant wr and a pro bowl qb. He would have been unstoppable. I am 37 and remember Earl playing football and he was close to being unstoppable. I almost remember him at Texas. When you play APF Earl is playing on a dream team. You don't only have to stop Earl but a silver wr and a bronze te.

If Earl was playing with that type of talent no team would have been able to stop Earl. They used to call the Oilers the Houston Campbells. He was the team. He tore a hole through an Hall of Fame defensive unit called the Steel Curtain. They stopped him in the playoff but just the fact he was able to get his money against one of the greatest defensive units ever is saying something.

He was the most punishing running back ever. Now, how do you make him in a video game. When I heard Earl was in the game I knew it would be trouble. He ran with more power than Bettis but with a speed of a much smaller back. I wish some could watch a whole game with Earl instead of highlights. Look at his career. He had a short career. He made the football hall of fame based on 4 solid years but those years were very, very special.


Peace

I agree. To truely represent Campbell in the game, he has got to be a wrecking machine. Else he is just another power back. We all know he was more than that.
I could understand the complaints more if there was NO way of stopping him, but there is. Also Earl Campbell and many of the Gold level running backs were hard to stop in real life. They are gonna get theirs. If you hold one of them under 100 yards you did well.

Peoples complaining about they cant stop him dont prove the game somehow needs tweaking. We need numbers to back that up. How many times does Campbell break tackles against Big hitters or gold lvl defenders NOTED for tackling in the game ? The average of that will tell the truth. If some of you think Campbell is souppose to just get lit up EVERYtime your legend defender meets up with him, are you thinking "realisticly" ?

I have had games were he kills me and games were I kill him. It averages out, how can I equate that to the Defense needs to be better ? I have seen Joey Browner Kill some gold HB's and not really seen many get by him. Should I complain that Browner is overpowered ?

[xrams]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

360

GT: d0meBreaker (that's a zero)

Dan Marino is KILLING me. I love playing with him, love his quick release, love the zip on passes... But damn if interceptions aren't killing me (hey, it's not MY fault). Keep coming up short in close games. Really like that I seem to be able to play w/anyone even though my teams are mostly geared for offline play

this is interesting... I play coach mode (demo view) mainly... I've played Marino twice... I can never sack Dan in this game... I have a awesome D-Line (Too tall, J brown, W Perry, Harvey Martin) I find success by pressuring/sacking the QB.... I've noticed the AI playing Marino from the shotgun formation solely.... with one or 2 backs at his side (for run plays or to block)... the AI never plays him under center.... if you play/use Dan, I think this may be an option for you to consider.... I mean the last thing Marino needs is an extra 1 or 2 seconds.... this formation renders my deadly D-line useless, an being I have generic LB's with Woodson my only legend DB..... I get ripped over the middle by Dan, Joe, Elway and some others that can deal with a heavy pass rush....

I've also discovered that the only way to stop Joe Montana is to run 3-4 or bear (zone) all day long.. he will absolutely KILL you playing man....

PS... have I mentioned how much I love this game lately...?!?!?

[TheShizNo1]

Re: Dear APF Dev Team....wheres the defense?

I agree. To truely represent Campbell in the game, he has got to be a wrecking machine. Else he is just another power back. We all know he was more than that.
I could understand the complaints more if there was NO way of stopping him, but there is. Also Earl Campbell and many of the Gold level running backs were hard to stop in real life. They are gonna get theirs. If you hold one of them under 100 yards you did well.

Peoples complaining about they cant stop him dont prove the game somehow needs tweaking. We need numbers to back that up. How many times does Campbell break tackles against Big hitters or gold lvl defenders NOTED for tackling in the game ? The average of that will tell the truth. If some of you think Campbell is souppose to just get lit up EVERYtime your legend defender meets up with him, are you thinking "realisticly" ?

I have had games were he kills me and games were I kill him. It averages out, how can I equate that to the Defense needs to be better ? I have seen Joey Browner Kill some gold HB's and not really seen many get by him. Should I complain that Browner is overpowered ?

I think this is a great post. I have no problem "containing" Earl Campbell. Just me, but I never expect to shut down a Gold Qb, Wr, Hb, etc. The only RB's that I have tremendous trouble w/ are Gale Sayers and OJ Simpson.