NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

[bad_philanthropy]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

I will disagree with one point about a new sim football game cannibalizing the existing market. I do think there is some room to to bring in new players. Look at what we saw with FIFA 14 on PS4, and even The Show on PS4 so far to a degree. The eye candy, marketing, and timing amidst scarce "next-gen" titles all conspired to induce new players in.

[Hooe]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

I will disagree with one point about a new sim football game cannibalizing the existing market. I do think there is some room to to bring in new players. Look at what we saw with FIFA 14 on PS4, and even The Show on PS4 so far to a degree. The eye candy, marketing, and timing amidst scarce "next-gen" titles all conspired to induce new players in.

I can see this to an extent, at least until the XBOX One and PS4 become more established and more games are out for them like you said.

In order for those gains to be permanent, however, whatever game comes out is going to have to have tremendous crossover appeal and damn near universal acclaim. The best example I have of this is NBA 2K11, which if you remember had the Jordan Challenge and for my money was the best sports game I played on the XBOX 360. NBA 2K has always been a quality series, but since that particular iteration released, the popularity of the series has exploded.

[Toupal]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

I hope this is for real, because EA needs a HUGE push. Madden hasn't taken a a big step forward since it was competing 2k. It became even worse once it jumped to 3rd generation gaming, and it really had no competition. Once they stripped away most of the things that made Madden great, jumping to the 360 and ps3, they then started to come out with it again, making it seem like arevolutionary idea.
I only ever purchased 2k3, and was very hapy with it, but I later went back to madden only because I liked the idea of uploading my draft class from NCAA. But now that is no longer and option, I am completely open to buying whichever one I deem worthy.

[jerwoods]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

IF 2K comes back they need to make their game slightly easier to move the ball running the ball was very real but it was a pain to get more than 3 yards a pop

and their camera mode made throwing the ball a little harder than madden makeing like L1 the primary WR sometimes overall it was better than madden but it did lack big plays at times oh and Kickoffs were brual


but i hope u guys are right

[FaceMask]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

Hmm. If the paper trail was as damning as FaceMask claims why would the plaintiffs settle?

It's not my claim personally, it's what the documentation claims. Also, lots of class actions settle so that's not out of the ordinary. Having been a part of a few, I just remember them taking so long (years) that in all honesty after so much time passes everybody on the plantiff side eventually reaches a point where they just want to settle and end it and get paid.

I understand that in the legal profession a "settlement" is not viewed the same way as a true "defeat" because the settlement itself didn't happen in a court, and the accused can get by without admitting wrongdoing (like EA did in this situation). But to me, that's just a technicality. The courts asked for documents, both sides submitted, and these memos were included. Then, a $27 Million settlement was reached in which EA had to pay out.

Maybe not a "defeat" in the truest legal sense, but it certainly wasn't a win for EA, not by a longshot. Terrible publicity and a $27 Million pay out was a bad deal for them.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

What am I missing, then? Because here's what I see in those four titles:

• simulation football game without a major league license featuring members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, critically-acclaimed proprietary football gameplay engine, and highly visible publisher branding fails to sell
• simulation football game without a major league license featuring a robust player physics system and highly-customizable everything fails to sell
• simulation football game without a major league license (but with a minor league license) featuring cross-over appeal with rhythm gameplay components during halftime shows fails to sell
• arcade football game without major league license with name brand recognition, nostalgia-invoking gameplay and atmosphere, and high degree of customization fails to sell

Other than a lengthy career mode, which none of these games featured as far as I know, what am I missing? If career mode is the lone distinction between what is missing and what some large swath of people so desperately want - why would a career mode be a viable solution to the problem of why these games wouldn't sell if they weren't appealing to their customers in their most fundamental base form (exhibition and online vs play)?

I want to understand what you see that I don't because I see absolutely no path forward for an unlicensed game in the current AAA gaming climate.

Let me try to elaborate without being too wordy. Picture a football game with all the features from NFL2k5, the game play elements from APF2k8, vast User customization and some kind of community share/locker, minus the NFL/NFLPA/ESPN branding. Now make that game available on all consoles and PC, leaving it to the gaming community to "fill in the blanks". Then sit back and watch as said community networks on all manners of social media to make it a must have for sports gaming.

The reason I compare this to NCAA Football is because as long as there is some share/locker feature for gamers to simply download the customization of others, the lack of licensing becomes moot. Then consider that due to the lack of any NFL branding the generic football game is sold for $20-$30 retail, I honestly can't see very many sports gamers not having that game and due to social networking I would think a good chunk of casuals would try it as well.

[cowboy_kmoney]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

I hope its true because I need realness back and es knw 2k will bring it

[mestevo]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

I take it there would be no lawyers in this hypothetical world? Or the expectation that it is set up in a way that once released 'the cat is out of the bag' and it can't be controlled so copyright claims are more difficult to pursue or something (though then that would probably just leave the creator/publisher potentially liable)?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[inkcil]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

I take it there would be no lawyers in this hypothetical world? Or the expectation that it is set up in a way that once released 'the cat is out of the bag' and it can't be controlled so copyright claims are more difficult to pursue or something (though then that would probably just leave the creator/publisher potentially liable)?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

I hear what you mean...but just look at how closely APF 2k8 resembled the NFL in terms of:

1.) Equipment players wear
2.) Number of players on the field
3.) The many other various rules and regulations of the game...I mean, this CLEARLY was not meant to duplicate the Arena Football League or some other "random type" of "only football-related" sport where there a "six downs" and "150 yards from end zone to end zone."
4.) The appearance of the referees (someone will double check this but its pretty close to NFL ref appearance and hand symbols/gestures)
5.) The intricacies of the Challenge system (more closely related to NFL challenge system than any other game in NFL history other than NFL 2k5).
6.) It's many many similarities tied directly to its predecessor, which was clearly an NFL game (NFL 2k5)
7.) The fact that its Legends were actually ex-NFL players.
8.) The fact that you could customize to the extent that many NFL replica uniforms were indeed created.
9.) The time of year the game was released - I mean, it wasn't released in April.
10.) The gaming community's OVERWHELMING acknowledgement that this was a direct NFL substitute or direct NFL alternative game (which may be why 2k limited its advertising efforts hoping the masses would catch on to the "obvious" without them needing to bang people over the head).

I mean, we all have to admit: APF had more in common with the NFL than it had "out of common" with the NFL and I can't recall one lawsuit by the NFL or EA against 2k because of it.

So, should 2k try a customize-able football ("NFL" wink wink) game again if they can't use the official license? Why not? In my (selfish) opinion, they most certainly should! Will they? That remains to be seen.

Like CM Hooe said/implied, it comes down to economics and what economic consultant is doing your market analysis study and feasibility study and cost analysis study. Are you gonna take a risk or be risk averse? I mean, let's not pretend that companies don't take risks in this industry anymore.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

I hear what you mean...but just look at how closely APF 2k8 resembled the NFL in terms of:

1.) Equipment players wear
2.) Number of players on the field
3.) The many other various rules and regulations of the game...I mean, this CLEARLY was not meant to duplicate the Arena Football League or some other "random type" of "only football-related" sport where there a "six downs" and "150 yards from end zone to end zone."
4.) The appearance of the referees (someone will double check this but its pretty close to NFL ref appearance and hand symbols/gestures)
5.) The intricacies of the Challenge system (more closely related to NFL challenge system than any other game in NFL history other than NFL 2k5).
6.) It's many many similarities tied directly to its predecessor, which was clearly an NFL game (NFL 2k5)
7.) The fact that its Legends were actually ex-NFL players.
8.) The fact that you could customize to the extent that many NFL replica uniforms were indeed created.
9.) The time of year the game was released - I mean, it wasn't released in April.
10.) The gaming community's OVERWHELMING acknowledgement that this was a direct NFL substitute or direct NFL alternative game (which may be why 2k limited its advertising efforts hoping the masses would catch on to the "obvious" without them needing to bang people over the head).

I mean, we all have to admit: APF had more in common with the NFL than it had "out of common" with the NFL and I can't recall one lawsuit by the NFL or EA against 2k because of it.

So, should 2k try a customize-able football ("NFL" wink wink) game again if they can't use the official license? Why not? In my (selfish) opinion, they most certainly should! Will they? That remains to be seen.

Like CM Hooe said/implied, it comes down to economics and what economic consultant is doing your market analysis study and feasibility study and cost analysis study. Are you gonna take a risk or be risk averse? I mean, let's not pretend that companies don't take risks in this industry anymore.

Backbreakers customization shouldn't be overlooked either. The game allowed you to make any logo you wanted offline. Online the logos didn't show up unless your opponent was on your friends list. Natural motion wasn't sued over any copyright material that I know of.

I think APF with fictitious players, a franchise mode or at least the ability to create a 32 team league and Backbreakers logo maker would be a blitz the league level hit.

Having said all that, the reason the rumors are out there is because EA won't confirm it has exclusivity. An nfl game is where the money is and that would be 2ks goal with a football game.

[Hooe]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

Let me try to elaborate without being too wordy. Picture a football game with all the features from NFL2k5, the game play elements from APF2k8, vast User customization and some kind of community share/locker, minus the NFL/NFLPA/ESPN branding. Now make that game available on all consoles and PC, leaving it to the gaming community to "fill in the blanks". Then sit back and watch as said community networks on all manners of social media to make it a must have for sports gaming.

The reason I compare this to NCAA Football is because as long as there is some share/locker feature for gamers to simply download the customization of others, the lack of licensing becomes moot. Then consider that due to the lack of any NFL branding the generic football game is sold for $20-$30 retail, I honestly can't see very many sports gamers not having that game and due to social networking I would think a good chunk of casuals would try it as well.

The problems I see with this pitch:

• What publisher agrees to sell an XBOX One / PS4 game for less than $60 / pop and no in-game micro transactions, given current multi-million-dollar AAA video game production costs? Are you projecting this game sells multi-millions purely on word-of-mouth advertising and critical acclaim based on football gameplay alone, without a full-on advertising budget? How does the publisher recoup its investment in the development and promotion of the title?
• What's the hook that sells the game to sports gamers, given no league license? There are several examples that robust customization and deep and/or engaging gameplay is not enough to create a winner in the AAA football gaming space - All Pro Football, BackBreaker, BCFX, and Tecmo Bowl Rewind.
• How is this game better than options currently available in the same genre? It approaches feature parity with Madden NFL based on it reprising the NFL 2K5 feature set, sure, but without the hook of NFL players and teams, why is average Joe Football Gamer - who may not have broadband internet access to download custom rosters, mind you - buying this game over Madden NFL, an already-existing 11v11 simulation football game with all the real players and teams? Offering "better football gameplay" isn't good enough, as subjective minds differ on what "better football gameplay" means, the general public already considers Madden NFL to be a detailed simulation of football as-is, and "better football gameplay" in isolation didn't help All Pro Football move an adequate number of units either way.
• What hook does this game have for someone not directly in the market for a simulation football game? Using only the game as it exists purely out of the box - there aren't real players, there aren't real leagues, there's no attempt at a genre crossover, there's no attempt at fictional world-building / story mode, there's no sort of continuous game loop to keep a player coming back beyond "play football with fictional players on fictional teams in a fictional league with no context", assuming a user with no internet connection. Even Madden NFL offers a crossover element with its Ultimate Team gameplay mode, which blends football with a tabletop collectible card game.
• Server infrastructure for content sharing - where is that money coming from, particularly given the proposed reduced price point of the game?
• What happens if lawyers from the NFL and NCAA start sending out Cease and Desist letters to whatever dev studio makes this game for enabling of copyright infringement of their trademarks and any/all infringing content must be removed from the game's content servers? The NFL in particular is notoriously protective of their brand.

There are too many problems and open questions with this hypothetical game in its current form for a modern AAA video game publisher to reasonably consider it, let alone fund it. It's not taking any risk to set it apart in general from other sports games and it's not doing enough to differentiate itself from its direct competition, Madden NFL, in a meaningful way. This game is basically "revive NFL 2K5 as a generic game" in its current form, which at-present appeals only to the people who bought All-Pro Football, maybe less given no real players vs. a few dozen legends.

I don't see how any publisher takes this idea. It's a nice pipe dream, but that's all it is.

[FaceMask]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

Yeah, I don't see big sales possibility for another game as sterile as APF was. However, I think APF is unique in the football space in that just about everything you could imagine to be done wrong with marketing and concept design in terms of league, teams, logos, and image, was done with this game, yet it still managed 400K mainly on the strength of its gameplay and the cache the series built from 2K5.

As an aside, I was surprised to hear "Son of a B" and the S-word in APF. I heard them only once and 7 years apart. I guess it was buried deep enough that the ESRB didn't care, or maybe 2K just omitted it in the content outline?

Without an NFL license, they need something that will appeal not just to hardcore football gamers, but also to people who like and play football but are mostly into other types of games like Open-world or Story style, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVFmNb3gcMU

And then they have to build stories and personalities for the players in the league if there is a Story mode. Here is one of the ways Blitz The League did it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alA3MeAE1Mc

It would still be a gamble, but merging these two things could also turn into a strong new IP. I say, it's worth at least a shot. I'd rather they try that instead of taking another shot at some other things they've done over the years that bombed worse than APF.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

@CMHooe, why do you keep repeating the same examples when I have already explained those are not examples of the type of game I am suggesting? It's fine that in your opinion even a generic football game with everything I'm suggesting still wouldn't sell enough but please stop bringing up generic football games that lack so many things and using them as examples to support that opinion.

Reading your posts on this matter, I see that we apparently see things from very different POVs and that's fine. I have explained my POV as best I can atm, that said hopefully the NFL license does open back up and it becomes a moot point.

[elgreazy1]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

I keep telling myself I WILL NOT get drawn back into these discussions but here I am again. Damn you all!!

If any developer is going to succeed, first they must understand they will need to be ready for a long, 12 round beat-down from EA & NFL. There will have to be some good faith by the suits that iterations can be made and that support will grow.

The first major building block: the game must play great. Regardless of the direction it takes - SIM, arcade, blend - the gameplay must be engaging and addictive. Graphics, Dolby Surround, 3D, virtual reality, licenses, yadda, yadda all that stuff is great, but those are features and not concepts that drive the game. EA is notorious for this, slap some new graphics and everything is all good. But remember, not every graphically superior game is great, but many great games are graphically inferior: PacMan, Mario, Tecmo Football, etc - they're all terrible looking games but they are still engaging to this day.

I'd give this some benefit of the doubt if there was some novel idea being presented, something that hadn't been done before which would literally move the gaming goalposts. Guitar Hero created an entire genre of games. The Nintendo Wii and Wii Sports introduced gamers a means to interact with games in a way which hadn't previously been done before (or at least, done well). Minecraft provided gamers with the ultimate sandbox with which to make pretty much anything simply by placing a punching blocks. Portal and Portal 2 stretched the imagination of what can be done from a first-person gun-toting game without so much as firing a single projectile.

A new simulation football game, league license or no, doesn't change the landscape the way these games did.

Here is the only way a non-licensed game can succeed and carve a niche: it needs to offer innovation. With the new console launches I feel there is now more opportunity than ever to use technology and social landscapes to create a new IP.

Each of the failed titles mentioned in this thread caused there own downfall by not getting out of their own way. BCFX was a terrible playing football game but tried to innovate (halftime show). APF2K8 played it too safe by trying to replicate a lesser NFL experience all while without establishing its own identity and simultaneously handcuffing the gamer. The Tecmo series simply tries to survive through nostalgia. Backbreaker was too rigid to listen to community feedback. Blitz and Midway simply just gave up and were too short-sited to continue building the franchise.

So we have our second major building block for a solid new football IP: innovation. What that is, we don't know but ideas are out there.

Let me try to elaborate without being too wordy. Picture a football game with all the features from NFL2k5, the game play elements from APF2k8, vast User customization and some kind of community share/locker, minus the NFL/NFLPA/ESPN branding. Now make that game available on all consoles and PC, leaving it to the gaming community to "fill in the blanks". Then sit back and watch as said community networks on all manners of social media to make it a must have for sports gaming.

The reason I compare this to NCAA Football is because as long as there is some share/locker feature for gamers to simply download the customization of others, the lack of licensing becomes moot. Then consider that due to the lack of any NFL branding the generic football game is sold for $20-$30 retail, I honestly can't see very many sports gamers not having that game and due to social networking I would think a good chunk of casuals would try it as well.

Here's where I whole heartedly agree with how to make a non-licensed game successful: community.

Here's my personal example: I don't follow or care much for college sports, but I love football. The NCAA series drew me in last year with NCAA14 - last version I bought had Joey Harrington on it!!! - and it was a pretty decent playing game of football. As a non-college sports fan the teams mean absolutely nothing to me, so theoretically that gives me 120+ pre-created teams to choose from - some with countless uniform options. Add in Team Builder and now the amount of teams are endless. The game also gives me the ability to structure my own leagues in any way: move teams to different conferences, import custom teams, decide champion qualifiers, etc. Add in Dynasty and all the roster management that comes with it and I can manage & couch-GM the game to infinity. Finally, community share gave me endless possibilities of using any roster (real, current, classic, all-time greats, fake), sliders, playbooks, etc for my "fake" leagues.

We now have a two more major building block to the foundation: community + customization.

The problems I see with this pitch:

• What publisher agrees to sell an XBOX One / PS4 game for less than $60 / pop and no in-game micro transactions, given current multi-million-dollar AAA video game production costs? Are you projecting this game sells multi-millions purely on word-of-mouth advertising and critical acclaim based on football gameplay alone, without a full-on advertising budget? How does the publisher recoup its investment in the development and promotion of the title?
• What's the hook that sells the game to sports gamers, given no league license? There are several examples that robust customization and deep and/or engaging gameplay is not enough to create a winner in the AAA football gaming space - All Pro Football, BackBreaker, BCFX, and Tecmo Bowl Rewind.
• How is this game better than options currently available in the same genre? ... why is average Joe Football Gamer - who may not have broadband internet access to download custom rosters, mind you - buying this game over Madden NFL, an already-existing 11v11 simulation football game with all the real players and teams? ...
• What hook does this game have for someone not directly in the market for a simulation football game? ...
• Server infrastructure for content sharing - where is that money coming from, particularly given the proposed reduced price point of the game?
• What happens if lawyers from the NFL and NCAA start sending out Cease and Desist letters to whatever dev studio makes this game for enabling of copyright infringement of their trademarks and any/all infringing content must be removed from the game's content servers? The NFL in particular is notoriously protective of their brand.

There are too many problems and open questions with this hypothetical game in its current form for a modern AAA video game publisher to reasonably consider it, let alone fund it. It's not taking any risk to set it apart in general from other sports games and it's not doing enough to differentiate itself from its direct competition, Madden NFL, in a meaningful way.

These questions definitely must be addressed, especially when it comes to ROI so that companies aren't bleeding money. Also, understandably, there are a lot of legalities to take into account with user-generated content, but the courts are still in debate today as IP-law has become a booming practice in the last decade. There would obviously need to be research done there.

Knowing these questions shouldn't be seen as a negative but more viewed as a positive in that these questions will guide a developer to finding the right answer. I feel more foundational blocks could be created from solving some of these answers.

In all, it's doable and anything is possible. You and I all wouldn't be here reading all this if someone, somewhere simply took the first million no's as gospel and gave up. Will a development team be smart enough to overcome the shortcomings of previous iterations? Will a publisher be willing to believe in the process and not pull the plug prematurely? Will jaded/loyal football gamers be willing to try a new product? With Madden being the only football franchise around the time is ripe for another IP to enter the market.

Oh snap! An hour of productivity from work gone! Damn you all, again!

[bad_philanthropy]

Re: NFL 2k COMEBACK? License not exclusive?

I think it has to be license or bust. The track record for sports games simply bears this out as a truth. Never mind APF—take a look at the FIFA/PES games in soccer. I think a lot of people felt that PES had far superior gameplay for a long time, and some who believe it still does. However, FIFA, with the appeal of its greater licenses, and marketing budget, has always massively outsold PES.

We're talking about the most popular sport in the world here, and the video game market is really clearly divided down the line of licenses. I have to believe developing a product from scratch this gen without a notable sports license as its basis is just an illogical investment decision.