Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

[TheWatcher]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

lol, you don't need to explain any of this to me. If you actually go back and read this thread, I've been calling for his induction since the middle of the 2008 season when he was on pace to win his 3rd MVP.

He's borderline in the sense that there's far from a consensus on him being a HOFer. He has terrific career arcs, but he'll face criticism for his longevity (or lack thereof). He's similar to Terrell Davis (terrific player superlatives in a short time span and career arcs) and I doubt Davis will ever be inducted into the Hall of Fame.

I responded based on the comment you made, so I'm not sure what the discrepancy would be...

And there are few players that there is a consensus on. I just think people's definition of borderline is off just by reading the example players they offer up. None of those guys are on Kurt's level of accomplishment.

You mentioned Terrell Davis who I think was a great player, but Warner still accomplished more than Davis.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

I responded based on the comment you made...

And there are few players that there is a consensus on. I just think people's definition of borderline is off just by reading the example players they offer up. None of those guys are on Kurt's level of accomplishment.

You mentioned Terrell Davis who I think was a great player, but Warner still accomplished more than Davis.

Really? Terrell Davis won more Super Bowls, was called All-Pro more times, won Offensive Player of the Year more, got an NFL MVP, 7-1 playoff record, and is 38th on the rushing touchdown list. The biggest difference is TD only sat on the bench for one game in his career.

1. Best at their positions of the current crop of HOF candidates.

2. You had a good case going until you killed all your credibility with that "after Warner got benched, Eli came in and won a Superbowl". Were you serious with that??

1. Are we talking about all QBs right now? I like Manning and Brady over Favre. But I could agree on Ogden (even if I like Jones a little bit better).

2. Are you implying that Eli didn't in a Super Bowl during the 2007 season? Any way you look at it, Warner was benched, let go, and basically sent packing off to Arizona and Eli subsequently won a Super Bowl.

[TheWatcher]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

"I had a bad coach, let me in the Hall" doesn't cut it and you should know that. I'll agree with Ray Lewis being the best linebacker (although Butkus would disagree), but Ogden is definitely not the best LT (Munoz) and Favre is definitely not the best QB (Unitas or Montana). The fact is that after Warner got benched in St. Louis, Bulger came in and played better. After Warner got benched in NYC, Eli came in and won a Super Bowl.

8-3 in the playoffs is awesome and that's one of his main selling points, but right now he doesn't have enough longevity to his career to get in the Hall. He needs to finish out this season well (not get injured) and maybe have a couple more good seasons before he gets in. Name me one QB in the Hall of Fame that really only played 5-7 seasons and only three full, quality seasons.

That's just not a strong argument. Position is not the biggest factor though... Gale Sayers is in and he only played 7 seasons and not even 7 full seasons, probably more like 4 or 5 when you crunch the numbers... and he wasn't even great in all of those seasons (though he did have a serious injury).

Heck, Billy Shaw (AFL) never played a down in the NFL, and he's in the hall of fame.

It's not about the amount of time you spent in the league, it's what you accomplished while you were in it.

So far, I can count 9 seasons (including the current) where he threw more TD's than INT's, and 1 season where he was even (10 years). I look at that stat because some of those Arizona teams were bad, and the Giants team he played on was nothing special. So that means, even with not-so-great teams he didn't completely crumble. He's only had one terrible year and that was his last year with Martz...

When Mike Martz is your Head Coach, you're not going to be successful. The man wasn't even trying to protect Warner. He was getting Kurt killed out there, and Martz was STILL trying to throw it on every down. Mike Martz ruined a team that had the makings of a dynasty (they had no business losing to New England in Super Bowl 36), and almost ruined a QB that was fire-hot. The only thing that saved Warner is that he was able to get out of St. Louis.

[TheWatcher]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Really? Terrell Davis won more Super Bowls, was called All-Pro more times, won Offensive Player of the Year more, got an NFL MVP, 7-1 playoff record, and is 38th on the rushing touchdown list. The biggest difference is TD only sat on the bench for one game in his career.

Superbowl Champion
Superbowl MVP
3 Classic Superbowl Starts
All-Time Superbowl Passing Leader
2-Time League MVP
Fastest Ever to 50 300 Yard Passing Games
4th All-Time in Passer Rating
2nd All-Time in Passing Yards/Game
8th All-Time in Yards/Attempt
2nd All-Time in Completion Percentage

... And he was number 1 on some of those stats for a little while. But I'll admit that Davis has a strong resume and I'm a guy who thinks he deserves a shot.

[TheWatcher]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Namath also was the first QB to pass for 4,000 yards and was instrumental in predicting and orchestrating the biggest upset in NFL history. Unitas has his opinions, but perhaps he's bitter because his was the team that lost.

The 4,000 yards was great, but he also threw 26 TD's with 28 INT's. That was typical of Namath. He threw INT's like it was the right thing to do, lol. 62-63-4 as a starter.

I could see your point about Unitas being bitter, but he said negative things about Namath even before the Super Bowl situation. It was a personality clash, since Namath was flashy and Unitas was traditional and conservative.

Namath's career was battered by consistently being injured after he won the championship, which was common in that era. Perhaps he is a weak HoFer, but that doesn't change anything with respect to Warner. You have to compare Warner to the other people he's nominated with.

Even in his healthy years he threw a lot of INT's.

I like to look at the people in the hall as a cursory measuring stick. When you think about it though, some of the disparity is the fault of the voters. Quite a few of the picks for the Hall have been very questionable.

I said Warner is a weak candidate and I stand by it. He has one championship and maybe 4-5 good seasons. Consistent players generally make the HoF over inconsistent ones.

But he's stronger than a lot of guys who are already in. Look at Dan Fouts... he lost almost as many games as he won and has a losing playoff record.

[steveo]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

I'd toss Warner into the HoF.

if guys like joe namath (funny he was mentioned already) can get in then why wouldn't Kurt. Or, jim kelly...if jim got in why shouldn't Kurt?

There is no valid basis for saying Warner isn't Hof worthy. If people want to look at stats then he has those. If people wan to look at the SB crap then he has the ring and 2 other appearances. If people want to look at playoff performance then he has that.

The only thing one can say is he hasn't played many seasons as a starter but so what? There are guys in the Hof who only played as much as Kurt has as a starter/not being injured.

[Random Hero]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

After last season I would call him a lock. Probably not a first ballot, but he had a great year. He's got the ring, the SB MVP, the regular season MVP's, and good enough stats to make it.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

That's just not a strong argument. Position is not the biggest factor though... Gale Sayers is in and he only played 7 seasons and not even 7 full seasons, probably more like 4 or 5 when you crunch the numbers... and he wasn't even great in all of those seasons (though he did have a serious injury).

Heck, Billy Shaw (AFL) never played a down in the NFL, and he's in the hall of fame.

It's not about the amount of time you spent in the league, it's what you accomplished while you were in it.

So far, I can count 9 seasons (including the current) where he threw more TD's than INT's, and 1 season where he was even (10 years). I look at that stat because some of those Arizona teams were bad, and the Giants team he played on was nothing special. So that means, even with not-so-great teams he didn't completely crumble. He's only had one terrible year and that was his last year with Martz...

When Mike Martz is your Head Coach, you're not going to be successful. The man wasn't even trying to protect Warner. He was getting Kurt killed out there, and Martz was STILL trying to throw it on every down. Mike Martz ruined a team that had the makings of a dynasty (they had no business losing to New England in Super Bowl 36), and almost ruined a QB that was fire-hot. The only thing that saved Warner is that he was able to get out of St. Louis.

Like you said Gale Sayers had his career cut short by injury. But during those five seasons he made 1st Team All-Pro every single year (meaning the writers thought he was one of the two best running backs in the league). His injury was completely tragic, but happened to a lot of running backs back then. Inducting him was done not only to recognize his extraordinary talent, but also to recognize the other running backs of the era that had their careers cut short. Lastly, check his average yards per kick return (30!), he leads all kick returners all-time. For those five years Sayers was essentially a combination of Devin Hester and Barry Sanders and would have done so much more had the medical technology been better.

As for interceptions, check all the great QBs that played in the '60s. They all threw a lot of interceptions, even the best ones.

Superbowl Champion
Superbowl MVP
3 Classic Superbowl Starts
All-Time Superbowl Passing Leader
2-Time League MVP
Fastest Ever to 50 300 Yard Passing Games
4th All-Time in Passer Rating
2nd All-Time in Passing Yards/Game
8th All-Time in Yards/Attempt
2nd All-Time in Completion Percentage

... And he was number 1 on some of those stats for a little while. But I'll admit that Davis has a strong resume and I'm a guy who thinks he deserves a shot.

Maybe, but my main point was that the two were comparable.

The 4,000 yards was great, but he also threw 26 TD's with 28 INT's. That was typical of Namath. He threw INT's like it was the right thing to do, lol. 62-63-4 as a starter.

I could see your point about Unitas being bitter, but he said negative things about Namath even before the Super Bowl situation. It was a personality clash, since Namath was flashy and Unitas was traditional and conservative.

Even in his healthy years he threw a lot of INT's.

That might have been part of the reason Namath was inducted, too. I think Namath was inducted for a lot of superficial reasons in addition to some of the things he did on the field, like his changing lifestyle, his establishment of the AFL/AFC as an equal to the NFL, and that one Super Bowl game. He was extremely important to the game's history.

I like to look at the people in the hall as a cursory measuring stick. When you think about it though, some of the disparity is the fault of the voters. Quite a few of the picks for the Hall have been very questionable.

That's probably true, but the criteria above just stats include how certain players change the game. Sometimes people are inducted for stats and other times they're inducted for superficial reasons. But probably the biggest thing that explains why some strange names are in is there are probably some classes that had weaker groups of nominees than others.

But he's stronger than a lot of guys who are already in. Look at Dan Fouts... he lost almost as many games as he won and has a losing playoff record.

Fouts was a stats guy. When he retired I think he would've been 2nd all-time in passing yards and 4th in touchdowns. A lot of people would agree with you that he shouldn't have gotten in, but in terms of stats he was probably the standard before Marino. He had three consecutive 4,000 yard seasons (almost cracked 5,000) and cracked 30 touchdowns two years in a row. Warner hasn't achieved that on the all-time lists quite yet, which is why I think he needs more seasons.

[SportsTop]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

I'll boil it down to this:

How many 2-Time league MVP's are not in the HOF that are eligible (or won't be when they become eligible)?

How many three time Superbowl QB's are not in the HOF that are eligible (or won't be when they become eligible)?

[lonewolf371]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

I'll boil it down to this:

How many 2-Time league MVP's are not in the HOF that are eligible (or won't be when they become eligible)?

How many three time Superbowl QB's are not in the HOF that are eligible (or won't be when they become eligible)?

Earl Morrall won an MVP, played in two Super Bowls and has three rings, but hasn't gotten in. Joe Theisman won an MVP, played in two Super Bowls and has one ring, but probably won't get in. Plunkett won two Super Bowls and hasn't gotten in. Stabler won an MVP and a Super Bowl and hasn't gotten in. Esiason won an MVP and lost a Super Bowl, hasn't gotten in. Terrell Davis won two Super Bowls and has an MVP, hasn't gotten in. I don't think anyone has won two MVPs and played in three Super Bowls and not gotten in, but if there'll ever be one Warner will be the first. :P

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

How many 2-Time league MVP's are not in the HOF that are eligible (or won't be when they become eligible)?

Roger Maris.

[z Revis]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

It's not about the amount of time you spent in the league, it's what you accomplished while you were in it.

Then why isn't Terrell Davis in the hall?

[SportsTop]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Roger Maris.

This is a thread about the NFL.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

This is a thread about the NFL.

I know, but I was more or less reaffirming your point since I can't think of an NFL player with 2 MVPs (I can't think of many players who have won 2 MVPs to being with) that hasn't made it to the HOF.

[TheWatcher]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Then why isn't Terrell Davis in the hall?

It's not over for him yet.