Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

[lonewolf371]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

I think he surpassed borderline a long time ago. When I think borderline I think Ron Jaworski or even more up the line like a Steve McNair.

Warner is a two-time league MVP and was in the hunt for a third last season and had a better year than the guy who won it (Peyton Manning). He's also a Super Bowl champion, Super Bowl MVP, and again the Super Bowl's all-time leading passer. All three of his Super Bowls were classics.

... and oh yeah... he happens to, statisically, be the third highest rated passer in NFL history, and I believe he was actually #1 for some time. He's also #2 all-time in completion percentage (Chad Pennington is #1 believe it or not) and I believe Warner was #1 there for a while, too.

Borderliners don't have those kinds of major bullet points on their resumes. Those are Hall Of Fame lines, and if he doesn't get in there should be a boycott.

Passer rating and completion percentage are overrated (look at John Elway). What matters are yards, touchdowns, Pro Bowls, and All-Pros. He's 38th in touchdowns and 32nd in yards. He doesn't have many Pro Bowls, but his All-Pros are fine. Overall being weak in those areas, you have to make up for it with Super Bowl rings, which Warner hasn't done. His Hall of Fame credentials are really average, and he really hasn't gotten on the same level as so many other players competing to get in the Hall at the moment.

Finally, as I've mentioned in other threads his passer rating and completion percentage are inflated because he holds the ball too long and fumbles. He's 18th on the all-time fumble list while really only starting the equivalent of about 6-7 NFL seasons.

[TheWatcher]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Generally QBs beat WRs, yeah. But there hasn't been a QB up for consideration as weak as Warner, yet. Also, it's pretty obvious that the glut of old offensive linemen right now (Jones, Ogden, Pace, Roaf, Allen, Faneca, Hutchinson) all easily have better credentials than Warner.

That's highly debatable, and when you throw linemen in it becomes even more debatable... because many believe that a lot of big name lineman make Pro Bowls in their declining years based off of name moreso than performance. I specifically remember Dick Vermeil telling Willie Roaf during a practice (NFL Films) publicly that he thought Roaf had been making some of his later Pro Bowls on name, but in the current season that they were in he'd came back up and really earned it.

Also, I think the stuff I pointed out concerning Warner's accomplishments is easily more credible than just making Pro Bowls which in and of itself lacks a lot of credibility as we see deserving players get frozen-out every season.

As far as Warner being "weak", lol, that's a WTH comment... But, I'll say that if Joe Namath is in, a guy who's entire legacy is built off of one game (even Johnny Unitas said that one publicly several times, he had no respect for Namath's game), then a guy who accomplished far more and played the game head and shoulders above what Namath did, should be in.

in and of itself That could hold him back long enough so that he's competing against Manning and Brady. To really be sure, Warner needs some more good seasons before he's any sort of lock.

He's not competing against those guys for a spot. He will be eligible long before those guys. He's going to have at least 4-6 years on them.

[SportsTop]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Passer rating and completion percentage are overrated (look at John Elway). What matters are yards, touchdowns, Pro Bowls, and All-Pros. He's 38th in touchdowns and 32nd in yards. He doesn't have many Pro Bowls, but his All-Pros are fine. Overall being weak in those areas, you have to make up for it with Super Bowl rings, which Warner hasn't done. His Hall of Fame credentials are really average, and he really hasn't gotten on the same level as so many other players competing to get in the Hall at the moment.

Finally, as I've mentioned in other threads his passer rating and completion percentage are inflated because he holds the ball too long and fumbles. He's 18th on the all-time fumble list while really only starting the equivalent of about 6-7 NFL seasons.

Steve Young discounts your entire point and he was a first ballot HOFer. He has more Pro Bowls than Warner, but other than that their overall numbers are quite similar (and Young was on much better teams).

[mKoz26]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

while really only starting the equivalent of about 6-7 NFL seasons.

But that didn't apply when you talked about yards and touchdowns?

[TheWatcher]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Passer rating and completion percentage are overrated (look at John Elway). What matters are yards, touchdowns, Pro Bowls, and All-Pros.

And Warner has done well on all those fronts, especially considering how he didn't have a straight 10+ season starting stint like many other QB's. He had to do that under ever-changing conditions.

You know what else matters? Winning football games, winning championships, winning MVP trophies and playing games that will never be forgotten... he did all of those things.

Passer rating perhaps is an overrated stat, but completion percentage is very important. After all, we're talking about a QB's accuracy. When you look at the list of all-time top QB's, it's no surprise that most of them have a high completion percentage.

He's 38th in touchdowns and 32nd in yards. He doesn't have many Pro Bowls, but his All-Pros are fine. Overall being weak in those areas, you have to make up for it with Super Bowl rings, which Warner hasn't done.

Super Bowls are hard to win, if not a virtual impossibility in reality. That said, he did win Super Bowl 34 and was the MVP, and the game was a classic.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

That's highly debatable, and when you throw linemen in it becomes even more debatable... because many believe that a lot of big name lineman make Pro Bowls in their declining years based off of name moreso than performance. I specifically remember Dick Vermeil telling Willie Roaf during a practice (NFL Films) publicly that he thought Roaf had been making some of his later Pro Bowls on name, but in the current season that they were in he'd came back up and really earned it.

Also, I think the stuff I pointed out concerning Warner's accomplishments is easily more credible than just making Pro Bowls which in and of itself lacks a lot of credibility as we see deserving players get frozen-out every season.

As far as Warner being "weak", lol, that's a WTH comment... But, I'll say that if Joe Namath is in, a guy who's entire legacy is built off of one game (even Johnny Unitas said that one publicly several times, he had no respect for Namath's game), then a guy who accomplished far more and played the game head and shoulders above what Namath did, should be in.

Namath also was the first QB to pass for 4,000 yards and was instrumental in predicting and orchestrating the biggest upset in NFL history. Unitas has his opinions, but perhaps he's bitter because his was the team that lost. Namath's career was battered by consistently being injured after he won the championship, which was common in that era. Perhaps he is a weak HoFer, but that doesn't change anything with respect to Warner. You have to compare Warner to the other people he's nominated with.

As for offensive linemen, that can be true sometimes. But it balances out, because they often don't get in during their prime years when they deserve it over other old guys. Even still, when you make the Pro Bowl (and more importantly AP All-Pro) as consistently as those guys have I think it's safe to say their Hall of Fame credentials are well-grounded. And those are just offensive linemen; I didn't mention players from any other position that time.

I said Warner is a weak candidate and I stand by it. He has one championship and maybe 4-5 good seasons. Consistent players generally make the HoF over inconsistent ones.

He's not competing against those guys for a spot. He will be eligible long before those guys. He's going to have at least 4-6 years on them.

Of course he'll be eligible long before them, but if other players hold him back long enough (which is more than possible) he will. That's what I'm trying to say.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

But that didn't apply when you talked about yards and touchdowns?

Good point, but it doesn't change the fact that he's relatively low on the all-time lists in the most pro-passing era in NFL history. That's injury issues and getting benched issues, but when you're looking at Kurt Warner and he's lower on the all-time lists than Boomer Esiason, it's a negative.

And Warner has done well on all those fronts, especially considering how he didn't have a straight 10+ season starting stint like many other QB's. He had to do that under ever-changing conditions.

You know what else matters? Winning football games, winning championships, winning MVP trophies and playing games that will never be forgotten... he did all of those things.

Passer rating perhaps is an overrated stat, but completion percentage is very important. After all, we're talking about a QB's accuracy. When you look at the list of all-time top QB's, it's no surprise that most of them have a high completion percentage.

Super Bowls are hard to win, if not a virtual impossibility in reality. That said, he did win Super Bowl 34 and was the MVP, and the game was a classic.

True that. He's won a decent amount, but he's also lost a bit, too. I think he's 57-44, which averages out to about a 9-7 season. Not bad.

Steve Young discounts your entire point and he was a first ballot HOFer. He has more Pro Bowls than Warner, but other than that their overall numbers are quite similar (and Young was on much better teams).

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...Y/YounSt00.htm
Every time you see something bolded, Steve Young led the league in that category. Notice how they're spread out over an 8-year period.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...W/WarnKu00.htm
Every time you see something bolded, Kurt Warner led the league in that category. Notice how they're spread out over a 3-year period.

[MARTZball]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Some really good posts in this thread though the simple reply is this: yes. Kurt Warner will be going to the Hall Of Fame. If only my boy JohnnyEcstacy was around to put forward some of his posts from the defunct MaddenMania forum. There really is no argument against IMO.

[SportsTop]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Good point, but it doesn't change the fact that he's relatively low on the all-time lists in the most pro-passing era in NFL history. That's injury issues and getting benched issues, but when you're looking at Kurt Warner and he's lower on the all-time lists than Boomer Esiason, it's a negative.


True that. He's won a decent amount, but he's also lost a bit, too. I think he's 57-44, which averages out to about a 9-7 season. Not bad.


http://www.pro-football-reference.co...Y/YounSt00.htm
Every time you see something bolded, Steve Young led the league in that category. Notice how they're spread out over an 8-year period.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...W/WarnKu00.htm
Every time you see something bolded, Kurt Warner led the league in that category. Notice how they're spread out over a 3-year period.

You're looking at it from a strictly black ink (league leader) perspective as opposed to gray ink (times in the top ten). You need to think beyond the scope of whether or not he led the league "X" amount of times and where he is at overall as compared to his peers.

The facts speak for themselves:

Superbowl Champion
Superbowl MVP
3 Superbowl Starts
All-Time Superbowl Passing Leader
2-Time League MVP
Fastest Ever to 50 300 Yard Passing Games
4th All-Time in Passer Rating
2nd All-Time in Passing Yards/Game
8th All-Time in Yards/Attempt
2nd All-Time in Completion Percentage

Find me any other QB in the HOF or that will be eligible for the HOF in the next 10 years with that resume that isn't or won't be inducted.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

You're looking at it from a strictly black ink (league leader) perspective as opposed to gray ink (times in the top ten). You need to think beyond the scope of whether or not he led the league "X" amount of times and where he is at overall as compared to his peers.

You missed my point. It's not that Steve Young led the league, it's that he did it consistently over a relatively long period of time. If you were a freshman in college when Warner got his first MVP, by the time you were a senior he was going 0-6 with a passer rating of 67.4.

The facts speak for themselves:

Superbowl Champion
Superbowl MVP
3 Superbowl Starts
All-Time Superbowl Passing Leader
2-Time League MVP
Fastest Ever to 50 300 Yard Passing Games
4th All-Time in Passer Rating
2nd All-Time in Passing Yards/Game
8th All-Time in Yards/Attempt
2nd All-Time in Completion Percentage

Find me any other QB in the HOF or that will be eligible for the HOF in the next 10 years with that resume that isn't or won't be inducted.

Also benched twice, 13-29 record from 2002-2007, 18th all-time in fumbles...

And you've provided no reason he should be in over other players. I still see no way that he gets in over a guy like Brett Favre, Jonathan Ogden, or Ray Lewis.

[SportsTop]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

You missed my point. It's not that Steve Young led the league, it's that he did it consistently over a relatively long period of time. If you were a freshman in college when Warner got his first MVP, by the time you were a senior he was going 0-6 with a passer rating of 67.4.


Also benched twice, 13-29 record from 2002-2007, 18th all-time in fumbles...

And you've provided no reason he should be in over other players. I still see no way that he gets in over a guy like Brett Favre, Jonathan Ogden, or Ray Lewis.

LOL....

You just named three of the best players ever at their positions. No one ever said Warner should, or even would, go in over the three you just mentioned.

As for the benchings you mentioned:

It was previously mentioned how Martz was a complete idiot as a head coach. He nearly ruined Warner's career and he did enough to Bulger to pretty much kill his.

Warner went to the Giants as a stop-gap until Manning was able to play. That was a bad team and NYC wanted to see Manning inserted sooner rather than later.

I think the powers that be realize both of those situations were as I stated above.

He'll finish this season with over 4,000 yards, top five in completion percentage, top ten in passer rating, and 25+ TDs. Not to mention he's a lifetime 8-3 in the playoffs.

I don't know what more you'd expect.

[TheWatcher]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Warner went to the Giants as a stop-gap until Manning was able to play. That was a bad team and NYC wanted to see Manning inserted sooner rather than later.

And the thing I think people overlook concerning that Giants situation, is that when they benched Warner the Giants were 5-4 and still were very much alive for the playoffs. At the time I exploded over the Giants decision to basically throw the season away. In hindsight, it all worked out as Eli eventually became what they believed he would be... not in that particular season, but eventually he did.

He'll finish this season with over 4,000 yards, top five in completion percentage, top ten in passer rating, and 25+ TDs. Not to mention he's a lifetime 8-3 in the playoffs.

I don't know what more you'd expect.

And that's remarkable. When you start looking at the playoff records of other greats already in the hall like Dan Marino (8-10)and Dan Fouts (3-4), he really stands out.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

I think he surpassed borderline a long time ago. When I think borderline I think Ron Jaworski or even more up the line like a Steve McNair.

Warner is a two-time league MVP and was in the hunt for a third last season and had a better year than the guy who won it (Peyton Manning). He's also a Super Bowl champion, Super Bowl MVP, and again the Super Bowl's all-time leading passer. All three of his Super Bowls were classics.

... and oh yeah... he happens to, statisically, be the third highest rated passer in NFL history, and I believe he was actually #1 for some time. He's also #2 all-time in completion percentage (Chad Pennington is #1 believe it or not) and I believe Warner was #1 there for a while, too.

Borderliners don't have those kinds of major bullet points on their resumes. Those are Hall Of Fame lines, and if he doesn't get in there should be a boycott.

lol, you don't need to explain any of this to me. If you actually go back and read this thread, I've been calling for his induction since the middle of the 2008 season when he was on pace to win his 3rd MVP.

He's borderline in the sense that there's far from a consensus on him being a HOFer. He has terrific career arcs, but he'll face criticism for his longevity (or lack thereof). He's similar to Terrell Davis (terrific player superlatives in a short time span and career arcs) and I doubt Davis will ever be inducted into the Hall of Fame.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

LOL....

You just named three of the best players ever at their positions. No one ever said Warner should, or even would, go in over the three you just mentioned.

As for the benchings you mentioned:

It was previously mentioned how Martz was a complete idiot as a head coach. He nearly ruined Warner's career and he did enough to Bulger to pretty much kill his.

Warner went to the Giants as a stop-gap until Manning was able to play. That was a bad team and NYC wanted to see Manning inserted sooner rather than later.

I think the powers that be realize both of those situations were as I stated above.

He'll finish this season with over 4,000 yards, top five in completion percentage, top ten in passer rating, and 25+ TDs. Not to mention he's a lifetime 8-3 in the playoffs.

I don't know what more you'd expect.

"I had a bad coach, let me in the Hall" doesn't cut it and you should know that. I'll agree with Ray Lewis being the best linebacker (although Butkus would disagree), but Ogden is definitely not the best LT (Munoz) and Favre is definitely not the best QB (Unitas or Montana). The fact is that after Warner got benched in St. Louis, Bulger came in and played better. After Warner got benched in NYC, Eli came in and won a Super Bowl.

8-3 in the playoffs is awesome and that's one of his main selling points, but right now he doesn't have enough longevity to his career to get in the Hall. He needs to finish out this season well (not get injured) and maybe have a couple more good seasons before he gets in. Name me one QB in the Hall of Fame that really only played 5-7 seasons and only three full, quality seasons.

[SportsTop]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

"I had a bad coach, let me in the Hall" doesn't cut it and you should know that. I'll agree with Ray Lewis being the best linebacker (although Butkus would disagree), but Ogden is definitely not the best LT (Munoz) and Favre is definitely not the best QB (Unitas or Montana). The fact is that after Warner got benched in St. Louis, Bulger came in and played better. After Warner got benched in NYC, Eli came in and won a Super Bowl.

8-3 in the playoffs is awesome and that's one of his main selling points, but right now he doesn't have enough longevity to his career to get in the Hall. He needs to finish out this season well (not get injured) and maybe have a couple more good seasons before he gets in. Name me one QB in the Hall of Fame that really only played 5-7 seasons and only three full, quality seasons.

1. Best at their positions of the current crop of HOF candidates.

2. You had a good case going until you killed all your credibility with that "after Warner got benched, Eli came in and won a Superbowl". Were you serious with that??