Best runningback of all time

[Rocky]

Re: Best runningback of all time

i'm not one to hate on barry, i think he's definitely in the running for #4 (behind jim, walter and emmitt). i don't feel i need to knock him to justify my horse's position in the poll.

but of his 6 playoff games, i'd say 1 was good, 2 were average, and the rest were not, with the green bay game being ****ally bad on a level that underlies every problem about him as a running back.

1991 - vs. dallas (38-6; w) - 12 carries, 69 yards, 1 rushing touchdown, 5 receptions, 30 yards
1991 - @ washington (10-41; l) - 11 carries, 44 yards, 4 receptions, 15 yards

1993 - vs. green bay (24-28; l) - 27 carries, 169 yards, 2 receptions, 0 yards

1994 - @ green bay (12-16; l) - 13 carries, -1 yard, 3 receptions, 4 yards

1995 - @ philadelphia (37-58; l) - 10 carries, 40 yards, 2 receptions, 19 yards

1997 - @ tampa bay (10-20; l) - 18 carries, 65 yards, 5 receptions, 43 yards

total playoff career - 6 games (1-5) - 91 carries, 386 yards (4.24 ypc), 1 rushing touchdown, 21 receptions, 111 yards (5.29 ypc)

playoff averages - 15 carries, 64 yards, 3.5 receptions, 18.5 yards

Look at Walter Payton's playoff numbers. Very similar and Payton had an all-time great defense to get the ball back for him in for the majority of those playoff games. Again, Barry played fine in the playoffs (the numbers don't tell you how much the Bucs were geared to stop him the last playoff game)...but there is really too small of a sample size to judge him accurately.

[MassNole]

Re: Best runningback of all time

The only playoff performance that he was truly terrible in was the GB, 13 carries for -1 yard performance. And that was against 8 and 9 men in the box because the GB defensive backs dared Dave Krieg to beat them.

In 6 playoff games he averaged 64.3 yards per game rushing. I call that choking, the one game for negative yardage just really exemplifies the greater point.

[The15thunter]

Re: Best runningback of all time

Look at Walter Payton's playoff numbers. Very similar and Payton had an all-time great defense to get the ball back for him in for the majority of those playoff games. Again, Barry played fine in the playoffs (the numbers don't tell you how much the Bucs were geared to stop him the last playoff game)...but there is really too small of a sample size to judge him accurately.

i agree, walter's playoff numbers aren't world beating numbers either. however, because walter did so much on the field, whereas barry was just a runner, the number are a big harder to use as a marker for him. also, walter played 7 playoff games after he was 30, which has been the death knoll for athleticism and supreme effectiveness for running backs. also, factor in how much tread was on his tires due to the teams he carried and the beating he took due to defenses in that era, and it's a less powerful argument against him.

again, i'm not trying to trash barry or boost walter, or anything of that nature. i'm just saying that walter blocked, ran, caught, threw, and served as the heartbeat for his team. he had been the face of the franchise for 9 years prior to his third playoff game, and had weathered the storm of some terrible offensive teams.

barry was a running back in its most literal sense, a pure, electrifying specimen, but he didn't contribute to his team in the same ways walter did. he ran primarily, caught secondarily, and that's about it, unless you count the threat of him running as another thing he did. so, for him to make a difference, his running has to be at a very high level, arguable a higher one than walter for him to be above him. if that's not the case, then there isn't a case for him.

[ActLikeYouCrow]

Re: Best runningback of all time

In 6 playoff games he averaged 64.3 yards per game rushing. I call that choking, the one game for negative yardage just really exemplifies the greater point.

and in two of those games he averaged 4 yards per carry, only ending up with 10 and 11 carries because his team was outclassed, but dont let facts get in your way. barry got 14+ carries in the playoffs twice.

tampa bay's great defense held him in check. hardly a chokejob averaging 3.6 ypc on 18 attempts against that great defense with a starting quarterback who did absolutely nothing in that game to loosen up the defense at all. so youre left with one game with no fullback, 8-9 defenders in the box and a finesse offensive line, and that underlies every problem with him as a back? how many of those being critical of that performance actually watched it?

his first playoff game vs dallas was not average, he had 5.75 ypc in that game and had 69 yd rushing and 99 total yds and a td in the midst of the lions blowing out the cowboys. also 167 rushing yards in a playoff game has to be considered just a little bit better than good. discrediting barry or trying to draw grand conclusions based on his playoff games/numbers is grasping at straws.

[The15thunter]

Re: Best runningback of all time

and in two of those games he averaged 4 yards per carry, only ending up with 10 and 11 carries because his team was outclassed, but dont let facts get in your way. barry got 14+ carries in the playoffs twice.

tampa bay's great defense held him in check. hardly a chokejob averaging 3.6 ypc on 18 attempts against that great defense with a starting quarterback who did absolutely nothing in that game to loosen up the defense at all. so youre left with one game with no fullback, 8-9 defenders in the box and a finesse offensive line, and that underlies every problem with him as a back? how many of those being critical of that performance actually watched it?

his first playoff game vs dallas was not average, he had 5.75 ypc in that game and had 69 yd rushing and 99 total yds and a td in the midst of the lions blowing out the cowboys. also 167 rushing yards in a playoff game has to be considered just a little bit better than good. discrediting barry or trying to draw grand conclusions based on his playoff games/numbers is grasping at straws.

no one is "letting facts get in the way". the fact is that he threw up 44 yards in his second playoff game, -1 in his fourth, 40 in his fifth, and 65 in his sixth and final playoff game. the circumstances, while relevant, do not make the actual factual numbers incorrect or irrelevant.

i don't think anyone is classifying him being held to pedestrian numbers against tampa bay a chokejob, moreso his entire playoff career. to be lauded as the best running back ever, which many are foolishly touting him, he never performed in a big way in the post-season, save for a good showing against dallas and an excellent one vs. green bay.

if a player is measured in part by his post-season play, and how big that measurement is depends on the onlooker, barry sanders disappointed. 1 win, 1 great game, 1 good game and 4 stinkers is not a resume of distinction.

[tlack]

Re: Best runningback of all time

Correct me if I'm wrong (and Im also suprised that no one mentioned it), but isn't barry sanders also the only player in NFL history to have 14 straight 200+ yard rushing games in one of the seasons he rushed for 2000+ yards?

Now I've never seen most of these players play, but from what I DID see, Barry gets my vote hands down. In fact, he is single handling the reason I got I got into football and began watching NFL games, (No BS). Growing up, all I was into was basketball until one day my pops was wathing a lions game, and I remember him repeatedly stating how great barry sanders was blah blah blah. Although I didn't really pay him no mind, I sat down and watch the game with him cause honestly I didn't get why football was so popular, but because he was so into it and I wanted to spend time with him, I watched the game with him. While I don't remember the exact game it was, I just remember Barry pulling off some of the most BEAUTIFUL runs I've ever seen (even to this day). I was hooked. Shortly there after I bought my first football videogame (that I actually wanted myself and not my pops) which was Madden'99 on the playstation one. When I say this man got me into football, I'm not kidding. He was the first sports athelete beside Micheal Jordan that I knew when I wathed him play, I was truly seeing greatness at display (even though I always remember them losing). In my eyes he was that type of great. And this was before I even seen one highlighst from previous years in his career. So he gets my vote hands down. I remember seeing one run where he doing all types on spins and jukes and ran through 4 defenders for a TD. And when I say ran through, I mean ran through them UNTOUCHED. Not to take anything away from EMMIT (who I aslo seen play and was obviously great aswell) but you got to keep in mind that when you bring up all-time rushing leader stas and whatnot, that not only did Barry retire early, but Emmit padded his stats to get that all-time rushing leader, which lost some respect in my book. But thats just me. Say what you want, but we all know had Barry played even just one more season (maybe two) that the all-time rushing leader would be so far out of reach, I don't think ANYONE would have caught up to him in this lifetime. And what do you know, he retired the following season after I started watchinghim play. I was salty as hell!!!

[The15thunter]

Re: Best runningback of all time

Correct me if I'm wrong (and Im also suprised that no one mentioned it), but isn't barry sanders also the only player in NFL history to have 14 straight 200+ yard rushing games in one of the seasons he rushed for 2000+ yards?

Now I've never seen most of these players play, but from what I DID see, Barry gets my vote hands down. In fact, he is single handling the reason I got I got into football and began watching NFL games, (No BS). Growing up, all I was into was basketball until one day my pops was wathing a lions game, and I remember him repeatedly stating how great barry sanders was blah blah blah. Although I didn't really pay him no mind, I sat down and watch the game with him cause honestly I didn't get why football was so popular, but because he was so into it and I wanted to spend time with him, I watched the game with him. While I don't remember the exact game it was, I just remember Barry pulling off some of the most BEAUTIFUL runs I've ever seen (even to this day). I was hooked. Shortly there after I bought my first football videogame (that I actually wanted myself and not my pops) which was Madden'99 on the playstation one. When I say this man got me into football, I'm not kidding. He was the first sports athelete beside Micheal Jordan that I knew when I wathed him play, I was truly seeing greatness at display (even though I always remember them losing). In my eyes he was that type of great. And this was before I even seen one highlighst from previous years in his career. So he gets my vote hands down. I remember seeing one run where he doing all types on spins and jukes and ran through 4 defenders for a TD. And when I say ran through, I mean ran through them UNTOUCHED. Not to take anything away from EMMIT (who I aslo seen play and was obviously great aswell) but you got to keep in mind that when you bring up all-time rushing leader stas and whatnot, that not only did Barry retire early, but Emmit padded his stats to get that all-time rushing leader, which lost some respect in my book. But thats just me. Say what you want, but we all know had Barry played even just one more season (maybe two) that the all-time rushing leader would be so far out of reach, I don't think ANYONE would have caught up to him in this lifetime. And what do you know, he retired the following season after I started watchinghim play. I was salty as hell!!!

1. he had 14 straight 100-yard rushing games starting in week 3 of the 1997 season.
2. he only, and i say only just because you inferred that he had multiple, had one 2,000 yard season.
3. i agree that barry would have become the all-time leading rusher, though whether or not emmitt would have caught him is up for debate. however, lost in that type of argument is the fact that emmitt logged an extra entire season of wear and tear due to his extensive playoff runs. those numbers, often accomplished against more dominant defenses, don't factor into the rushing numbers we always quote, but that mileage remained.

the more and more i think about it and the more people argue for him, the further down i'm sliding barry sanders.

[mudman]

Re: Best runningback of all time

1. he had 14 straight 100-yard rushing games starting in week 3 of the 1997 season.
2. he only, and i say only just because you inferred that he had multiple, had one 2,000 yard season.
3. i agree that barry would have become the all-time leading rusher, though whether or not emmitt would have caught him is up for debate. however, lost in that type of argument is the fact that emmitt logged an extra entire season of wear and tear due to his extensive playoff runs. those numbers, often accomplished against more dominant defenses, don't factor into the rushing numbers we always quote, but that mileage remained.

the more and more i think about it and the more people argue for him, the further down i'm sliding barry sanders.

I've never once, in my life, heard an argument in emmitt's favor that makes me think he's in the same class as B. Sanders.

emmitt played longer and for a MUCH better team and yet his averages pale in comparison....care to explain?

Sorry, but Sanders put up better #'s on a worse team...not sure what's so complicated here.

[ZB9]

Re: Best runningback of all time

emmitt played longer and for a MUCH better team and yet his averages pale in comparison....care to explain?

Sorry, but Sanders put up better #'s on a worse team...not sure what's so complicated here.

if that is the main criteria (which it shouldnt be imo)...Andre Rison > Jerry Rice, Eric Dickerson > Barry Sanders, Warren Moon > Joe Montana, etc

but I think for most people, that criteria is reserved only for Emmitt Smith....not that there arent other actual legit arguments as to why someone would take Sanders over Smith

[PrettyT11]

Re: Best runningback of all time

Has a Cowboys fan it is funny to see the extreme some people in this thread have gone to try to downplay what Emmit did and also completely over exaggerate the lack of talent around Barry to try and boost him higher.. I do hold Emmit a lil higher since I am a Cowboys fan and have seen him play more than the rest but my answer to the best of all time has always been Walter Payton. Like many others have said Sweetness didn't really have any weaknesses to his game. He could do it all. I can see how a case could be made for Emmit but I will still have Payton ahead of him.

As far as the Emmit vs Barry thing goes. I would put Emmit over Barry and would take Emmit on my squad before Barry. I am a huge fan of both and Barry was no doubt the more exciting runner but when it comes down to what a RB is suppose to do, get yards and score TD's, Emmit is number one all time. Then when you throw in what he did in the playoffs and the gap increases. Then the one thing that stands out to me about Emmit is his heart and toughness. I'm not doubting or questioning if Barry did or didn't have heart but watching first hand what Emmit did against the Giants with basically one arm puts him on another level.

[tlack]

Re: Best runningback of all time

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[ActLikeYouCrow]

Re: Best runningback of all time

no one is "letting facts get in the way". the fact is that he threw up 44 yards in his second playoff game, -1 in his fourth, 40 in his fifth, and 65 in his sixth and final playoff game. the circumstances, while relevant, do not make the actual factual numbers incorrect or irrelevant.

i don't think anyone is classifying him being held to pedestrian numbers against tampa bay a chokejob, moreso his entire playoff career. to be lauded as the best running back ever, which many are foolishly touting him, he never performed in a big way in the post-season, save for a good showing against dallas and an excellent one vs. green bay.

if a player is measured in part by his post-season play, and how big that measurement is depends on the onlooker, barry sanders disappointed. 1 win, 1 great game, 1 good game and 4 stinkers is not a resume of distinction.

everything has a context, all running backs are at the mercy of their teammates. he had 14+ carries twice. this isnt the nba, judging a running back based on his playoff career especially in limited carries due to his team not being as talented as the other team and falling behind is what is foolish, but carry on with skewing stats to fit your agenda. if he was on better teams, the games would have been closer and his stats would have been better. of course his stats arent going to be close to the regular season numbers when he doesnt get the ball nearly as often. barry didnt have a good road playoff game, but he only had 4 of them and only had 14+ carries in one of them.

you cant attack his regular season numbers, so resorting to this flimsy playoff angle makes sense.

ZB9 the problem with those examples are rison didnt consistently put up better numbers than rice, dickerson didnt put up better numbers than sanders, nor moon over montana other than passing yardage. when people mention the argument youre referring to, they are saying that a gap already exists in sanders favor regardless of what teams they played for and that it would have been even wider were their situations reversed. speculation sure, but not ridiculous considering barry put up 2000 yards in his first nfl season with a fullback.

[The15thunter]

Re: Best runningback of all time

I've never once, in my life, heard an argument in emmitt's favor that makes me think he's in the same class as B. Sanders.

emmitt played longer and for a MUCH better team and yet his averages pale in comparison....care to explain?

Sorry, but Sanders put up better #'s on a worse team...not sure what's so complicated here.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=5541

now you have.

[The15thunter]

Re: Best runningback of all time

everything has a context, all running backs are at the mercy of their teammates. he had 14+ carries twice. this isnt the nba, judging a running back based on his playoff career especially in limited carries due to his team not being as talented as the other team and falling behind is what is foolish, but carry on with skewing stats to fit your agenda. if he was on better teams, the games would have been closer and his stats would have been better. of course his stats arent going to be close to the regular season numbers when he doesnt get the ball nearly as often. barry didnt have a good road playoff game, but he only had 4 of them and only had 14+ carries in one of them.

you cant attack his regular season numbers, so resorting to this flimsy playoff angle makes sense.

ZB9 the problem with those examples are rison didnt consistently put up better numbers than rice, dickerson didnt put up better numbers than sanders, nor moon over montana other than passing yardage. when people mention the argument youre referring to, they are saying that a gap already exists in sanders favor regardless of what teams they played for and that it would have been even wider were their situations reversed. speculation sure, but not ridiculous considering barry put up 2000 yards in his first nfl season with a fullback.

lol, how am i skewing facts? i've presented the numbers as clearly as can be for everyone to digest as they wish. against playoff caliber teams and defenses, he was not able to thrive. your point is that his numbers are low because his team wasn't good enough and that he didn't receive enough carries. that's fine, i understand that point, and i agree with the latter, he should have gotten more carries. as for his team not being good enough, i still think people undersell the lions, especially offensively.

as for his regular season numbers, you're right. i can't really attack his numbers because he was good for about 100 yards per game, which is phenomenal. however, i can attack the fact that he often defeated the very purpose of a running back by losing yards at a record-breaking level, trying to do too much lateral and backward running in the process of trying to break something dazzling. it was a gift and a curse, because when it worked, it was something nicredible to behold, but when it didn't, it was just stupid. he could turn a 2 yard loss into a 70 yard gain, but more often than not, he turned it into a 7 yard loss.

to regard playoff numbers, or a lack thereof, as flimsy is just silly, though. to say that what you do when the defenses are better and the stakes are higher is somehow not valid as a measure of greatness doesn't make sense.

and, to address a point you made earlier in your post...i don't have an agenda. the horse i have in this race, jim brown, isn't even being debated with barry sanders. as i've stated, i think these two are fighting for the #3 spot, not the #1. #1 is jim brown, #2 is walter payton. to be honest, i liked barry better than emmitt when i was growing up and i liked the cowboys more than any other team. i don't have a bias, i'm looking at this thing objectively, so let's not get ahead of ourselves with the assumptions.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Best runningback of all time

ZB9 the problem with those examples are rison didnt consistently put up better numbers than rice, dickerson didnt put up better numbers than sanders, nor moon over montana other than passing yardage. when people mention the argument youre referring to, they are saying that a gap already exists in sanders favor regardless of what teams they played for and that it would have been even wider were their situations reversed. speculation sure, but not ridiculous considering barry put up 2000 yards in his first nfl season with a fullback.

The problem here though is Sanders didn't consistently put up better numbers than Emmit. From the span of 91 to 96 Emmit not Barry won 4 of the 6 rushing titles, became only the second player ever to run for 20 TD's in a season, and the first ever to go over 20 in multiple years. Thier averages during that time Sanders 1,491 yards and 9.5 TD's Emmit 1,537 yards and 16 TD's. As you can see Emmit clearly had the better numbers during that span. That doesn't even include his all time record playoff numbers. After 96 it was clear that Emmit's body had taken alot more of a pounding considering all those hard fought playoffs games. So yes Barry clearly had the higher number of yards in those last two season but Emmit still trumps him in the TD department. As far as thier careers go they both have 4 rushing titles but again Emmit destroys Barry in the TD department. Emmit had just about as many TD's by 96 that Barry had in his entire career. So where are these consistently better numbers for Barry??