Best runningback of all time

[Rocky]

Re: Best runningback of all time

Statistics have been your only argument. Are we talking fantasy football or best RB? Besides you can manipulate stats for any argument. Which you had to do with the yards per game, in order to justify Sanders as even being in the same league as Payton as a pass receiver, when he simply wasn't. I have never heard anyone try to make that argument. Ever.

Whose making that argument? Please read. Payton was a better receiver, but in terms of using that as a case to why Payton was a better player overall...I'm sorry I don't believe his advantages as a receiver outweight Barry's that much.

As far as stats....we're talking about yards per game (only because that's the really only fair statistic). That's a pretty big statistic right?

Any Payton didn't? You're acting like Sanders was the only one capable of such feats. When that's not the case.

He didn't do it with as much regularity as Sanders no. He had his own set of moves...the famed forearm shiver, a great stiff arm, could put his shoulder down, and he had a pretty nice dead leg move. But overall, he didn't have the ability of Sanders. Again, two different runners and Payton was certainly among the most talented runners of all time. But Barry Sanders had some abilities that were a league of it's own.

What players? They played against Payton in the late 70's and also Barry in the 90's? How does the tape show that? So how many full games of Payton have you actually seen? Jeez, I actually saw the guy play live many times. What tapes are you basing this off of?



I don't see how. Payton was easily the more complete player and more complete running back. I don't see how that can even be debated. Emmitt as well. If not for youtube highlight clips, Barry would not get the run he does. Barry's was a great runner, but he was not a complete back.

I was referring to the Emmitt/Barry debates as far as people I've talked to. I've worked with guys who have coached both Barry and Payton and say that Sanders was the best they ever seen (besides Jim Brown), but in any case, I trust my own eyes the most....and I would take Barry. Sorry.

And are we talking about who was more complete or who was actually better? Payton was more complete, but Sanders was the better more effective and productive player imo.

[The15thunter]

Re: Best runningback of all time

Pure runner where do you have Dickerson? Who's your #1 pure runner?

1. bo jackson - ridiculous combination of size, speed, strength, agility and moves
2. gale sayers - faster than barry with as many moves and probably the best vision of any back ever
3. jim brown - 40 years ahead of his time in terms of power and speed, was too big and too fast to be dealt with
4. eric dickerson - a running machine, plain and simple
5. barry sanders - could not be tackled by one man with any level of consistency, the most electric back ever

honorable mention: o.j simpson, tony dorsett, walter payton, emmitt smith, terrell davis

[Rocky]

Re: Best runningback of all time

to me, the term "pure runner" means that we strip away every aspect of the game and look solely at his running as a means to judge him.

i wouldn't put barry at the top of that list, either, because he bypasses the first hole too many times to hit the homerun. he also runs laterally too much, backwards too much, and can only hurt you outside. if he runs up the middle, you're not concerned because he needs space to be special.

again, this isn't me trying to slight him, i have him as the #4 back of all-time, so this isn't hate, but he's certainly not the best back ever, and even on a pure runner scale, he doesn't fit the bill.

Good post but that was really the style of that offense of the time, a risk/reward improvisation based offense. It's hard to blame Sanders too much as it was what his coaches allowed him to do because eventually it worked out.

I think it's interesting to note that in both college and pros, when he did have a FB to follow or a TE to cut off of, he put up non-arguably the greatest season in CFB history, the second highest total rushing season in NFL history (with a 6.1 YPC average), and another 1,400 yard season against some of the most ridiculously stacked boxes you'll see in pro football. Not using that as the end all be all, but just adding it to the argument.

[bkrich83]

Re: Best runningback of all time

That's a pretty big statistic right?

I guess, but comparing a statistic like that between era's makes little sense to me.

He didn't do it with as much regularity as Sanders no.

This is based on what? How do you figure?

I was referring to the Emmitt/Barry debates as far as people I've talked to. I've worked with guys who have coached both Barry and Payton and say that Sanders was the best they ever seen (besides Jim Brown), but in any case, I trust my own eyes the most....and I would take Barry. Sorry.

Which is funny, because I have never heard anyone say that. Everyone points to Payton. I worked with a hall of fame defensive back who swears up and down to me, Payton was the best football player he saw.

On your own eyes? Again I ask how many times did you actually see Payton play? Watching highlight reels is one thing, seeing full games is a whole other. I don't see how you can say that, when you and I both know you really haven't seen Payton play.

[bkrich83]

Re: Best runningback of all time

Good post but that was really the style of that offense of the time, a risk/reward improvisation based offense. It's hard to blame Sanders too much as it was what his coaches allowed him to do because eventually it worked out.

I think it's interesting to note that in both college and pros, when he did have a FB to follow or a TE to cut off of, he put up non-arguably the greatest season in CFB history, the second highest total rushing season in NFL history (with a 6.1 YPC average), and another 1,400 yard season against some of the most ridiculously stacked boxes you'll see in pro football. Not using that as the end all be all, but just adding it to the argument.

Playing in the R&S was not a detriment to him either though. He never saw a stacked defense against the R&S. He rarely even saw base personel. If they were in base, then he saw zone. Many, many mediocre RB's put up good numbers in the the R&S, so the whole argument about what offense he played in is moot to me .

[bkrich83]

Re: Best runningback of all time

1. bo jackson - ridiculous combination of size, speed, strength, agility and moves
2. gale sayers - faster than barry with as many moves and probably the best vision of any back ever
3. jim brown - 40 years ahead of his time in terms of power and speed, was too big and too fast to be dealt with
4. eric dickerson - a running machine, plain and simple
5. barry sanders - could not be tackled by one man with any level of consistency, the most electric back ever

honorable mention: o.j simpson, tony dorsett, walter payton, emmitt smith, terrell davis

Great list. I never saw Brown or Sayers, so I can't comment on them.

For me pure runner

1. Dickerson
2. Payton
3. Sanders
4. Marcus Allen
5. Emmitt Smith

Left Jackson off. His sample size is too small. Never started more than 9 games in a season never played in more than 11. Given how physical his game was, I wonder if he'd have been as good after 16 games. He came in to the league most years, later in the season, and he had the freshest legs.

[The15thunter]

Re: Best runningback of all time

Good post but that was really the style of that offense of the time, a risk/reward improvisation based offense. It's hard to blame Sanders too much as it was what his coaches allowed him to do because eventually it worked out.

I think it's interesting to note that in both college and pros, when he did have a FB to follow or a TE to cut off of, he put up non-arguably the greatest season in CFB history, the second highest total rushing season in NFL history, and another 1,400 yard season against some of the most ridiculously stacked boxes you'll see in pro football. Not using that as the end all be all, but just adding it to the argument.

oh, i definitely don't blame the coaches for allowing him to do what made him special. if the guy has magic ankles and can pull off some of the things he pulled off, you can't harness that and try to make him what he isn't. basically, once a guy gets to the nfl/nba/mlb level, you only tweak things, you don't change what's not really broken. if you turn barry into a north-south grinder, he turns into a very good halfback and not a hall of fame legend.

that being said, his style also prevented him from being able to reach that top dog status. if i need 3 tough yards against the steelers, i don't want barry. his style is too high-risk/high-reward, with the obvious risk being his record losses. basically, you don't actually want your running back to play like barry sanders. he was so special that he's the only one of his kind (even gale sayers, for all of his elusiveness, did not play like him). he goes against everything you teach a running back to do. his uniqueness is both galvanizing and polarizing, because his style is so electric, so special that it's appealing and a turn-off.

[Rocky]

Re: Best runningback of all time

I guess, but comparing a statistic like that between era's makes little sense to me.

C'mon man. The top 10 in yards per game are the same guys that many people consider the 10 greatest RB's of all time. And I'm not talking about blind yards per game...when you look at statistics during the first 10 years in the league, heck best 7, Barry is still superior.

Which is funny, because I have never heard anyone say that. Everyone points to Payton. I worked with a hall of fame defensive back who swears up and down to me, Payton was the best football player he saw.

On your own eyes? Again I ask how many times did you actually see Payton play? Watching highlight reels is one thing, seeing full games is a whole other. I don't see how you can say that, when you and I both know you really haven't seen Payton play.

That's great you worked with a HOF DB that told you that...really is. I only brought that up since you want to completely disregard statistics. Then what do we go off of. On film, you see one thing, I see another (I got both guys film from a guy who coached them both if you want to know but it really shouldn't matter if we discuss this thing like grown ups), but to say that there is no way that Sanders wasn't as productive or effective when everything else says otherwise is asinine.

[The15thunter]

Re: Best runningback of all time

Great list. I never saw Brown or Sayers, so I can't comment on them.

For me pure runner

1. Dickerson
2. Payton
3. Sanders
4. Marcus Allen
5. Emmitt Smith

Left Jackson off. His sample size is too small. Never started more than 9 games in a season never played in more than 11. Given how physical his game was, I wonder if he'd have been as good after 16 games. He came in to the league most years, later in the season, and he had the freshest legs.

i agree with you that bo's sample size was very small. however, everything we know about him is based on him as a runner, he didn't catch passes and wasn't really used for blocking. bo was there to run the ball exclusively, and what little we saw was the most unnatural, godforsaken blend of size, power and speed the game has ever seen. watching him play, a defender could have the perfect angle on him, and then he turns on another gear and defies the laws of physics (hyperbole, but still) to turn the corner. i won't even talk about his power game, since that's well known.

as for jim, i can't claim to have seen too many full games of his, but what i have seen, he's a guy that can get every kind of yard you want. if i need three years against a stacked box, that's right up his alley. if i need to run a sweep and get 15+, he could do that with speed and stiff-arm the safety. if i need a cutback run, he could give me that, and god bless whoever tries to meet him in the hole, because the shoulder getting lowered or the arm being extended is a life-changer.

i'm surprised your list doesn't have o.j., honestly, but i definitely respect what you have.

[bkrich83]

Re: Best runningback of all time

C'mon man. The top 10 in yards per game are the same guys that many people consider the 10 greatest RB's of all time. And I'm not talking about blind yards per game...when you look at statistics during the first 10 years in the league, heck best 7, Barry is still superior.

Again you're comparing stats across eras. How does that make sense? Besides is this fantasy football.

That's great you worked with a HOF DB that told you that...really is. I only brought that up since you want to completely disregard statistics. Then what do we go off of. On film, you see one thing, I see another (I got both guys film from a guy who coached them both if you want to know but it really shouldn't matter if we discuss this thing like grown ups), but to say that there is no way that Sanders wasn't as productive or effective when everything else says otherwise is asinine.

So how many full games of Payton have you actually seen. You've been talking about what Sanders does better, but how much of Payton's career did you actually see?

I have never heard a football person say Sanders was the better player between the two. Not that it's a topic of conversation, but to a man just about everyone I have known in the game have all regarded Payton as the gold standard of RB's.

[bkrich83]

Re: Best runningback of all time

i agree with you that bo's sample size was very small. however, everything we know about him is based on him as a runner, he didn't catch passes and wasn't really used for blocking. bo was there to run the ball exclusively, and what little we saw was the most unnatural, godforsaken blend of size, power and speed the game has ever seen. watching him play, a defender could have the perfect angle on him, and then he turns on another gear and defies the laws of physics (hyperbole, but still) to turn the corner. i won't even talk about his power game, since that's well known.

as for jim, i can't claim to have seen too many full games of his, but what i have seen, he's a guy that can get every kind of yard you want. if i need three years against a stacked box, that's right up his alley. if i need to run a sweep and get 15+, he could do that with speed and stiff-arm the safety. if i need a cutback run, he could give me that, and god bless whoever tries to meet him in the hole, because the shoulder getting lowered or the arm being extended is a life-changer.

i'm surprised your list doesn't have o.j., honestly, but i definitely respect what you have.

Again by the time I was old enough to see OJ and know what was going on, he was playing in SF and his career was pretty much over.

I've seen a ton of his games from when he was a Trojan, but really didn't see enough in the league to comment.

Agree with you on Bo. Best pure athlete I have ever seen at the position.

When talking pure runner if career length is not in the equation, where does Terrell Davis fall? He'd be pretty high on my list. What about a guy like George Rogers or pre knee injury William Andrews? Where would Herschel Walker be if he didn't waste his early years in the USFL?

Another great runner, who doesn't get mentioned a lot, but I loved to watch him run the ball. Eddie George.

[The15thunter]

Re: Best runningback of all time

Again by the time I was old enough to see OJ and know what was going on, he was playing in SF and his career was pretty much over.

I've seen a ton of his games from when he was a Trojan, but really didn't see enough in the league to comment.

Agree with you on Bo. Best pure athlete I have ever seen at the position.

When talking pure runner if career length is not in the equation, where does Terrell Davis fall? He'd be pretty high on my list. What about a guy like George Rogers or pre knee injury William Andrews? Where would Herschel Walker be if he didn't waste his early years in the USFL?

Another great runner, who doesn't get mentioned a lot, but I loved to watch him run the ball. Eddie George.

you might not know, but i'm probably the biggest terrell davis fan around. i think he's easily hall of fame, as his 3 elite years rival anyone's.

as for eddie george...i think it's an unpopular view, but for most/all of his pro career, he was a grinding workhorse. if you look at his numbers, or if you can recall the games, he was a volume back. i'm not blaming him, that's the offense the titans ran because they were more of a ball-control-win-with-defense type of team, so they needed a grinder who played tough and strong and made the clock and chains move.

that being said, it's hard to judge him as a pure runner because he was harnessed by his own offense.

[Rocky]

Re: Best runningback of all time

Again you're comparing stats across eras. How does that make sense? Besides is this fantasy football.

Again, this stat is pretty consistent. Throughout the annals of football RB's are, for the most part, measured on how many yards they put up. This hasn't changed and that's why nearly every legendary RB is up there in yards per game as well.

So how many full games of Payton have you actually seen. You've been talking about what Sanders does better, but how much of Payton's career did you actually see?

I have never heard a football person say Sanders was the better player between the two. Not that it's a topic of conversation, but to a man just about everyone I have known in the game have all regarded Payton as the gold standard of RB's.

I've seen some of Payton's best games...heck nearly every game I've seen of him is a game where he performed great in.

As far as never hearing a football person say that Sanders is better than Payton, let's use something tangible. In a SI poll of players on who was the greatest player they saw, Sanders got 30% of the vote, Rice 22% and Payton 20% (these are players in the 2003 season however..Barry got 40% of the vote of players with 9 years of experience). In an ESPN poll of analyst, former HOF players, and coaches, Barry Sanders was ranked ahead of Walter Payton.

[bkrich83]

Re: Best runningback of all time

you might not know, but i'm probably the biggest terrell davis fan around. i think he's easily hall of fame, as his 3 elite years rival anyone's.

as for eddie george...i think it's an unpopular view, but for most/all of his pro career, he was a grinding workhorse. if you look at his numbers, or if you can recall the games, he was a volume back. i'm not blaming him, that's the offense the titans ran because they were more of a ball-control-win-with-defense type of team, so they needed a grinder who played tough and strong and made the clock and chains move.

that being said, it's hard to judge him as a pure runner because he was harnessed by his own offense.

George was a high volume guy, to his detriment. No one is ever the same after a 400 carry season. I thought he was pretty shifty and had a great size/speed combo.

I hate the Broncos, but to me Davis is a no brainer for the hall. His run before the knee surgery was as dominant as anyone, ever, including the likes of Barry Sanders.

[Rocky]

Re: Best runningback of all time

oh, i definitely don't blame the coaches for allowing him to do what made him special. if the guy has magic ankles and can pull off some of the things he pulled off, you can't harness that and try to make him what he isn't. basically, once a guy gets to the nfl/nba/mlb level, you only tweak things, you don't change what's not really broken. if you turn barry into a north-south grinder, he turns into a very good halfback and not a hall of fame legend.

that being said, his style also prevented him from being able to reach that top dog status. if i need 3 tough yards against the steelers, i don't want barry. his style is too high-risk/high-reward, with the obvious risk being his record losses. basically, you don't actually want your running back to play like barry sanders. he was so special that he's the only one of his kind (even gale sayers, for all of his elusiveness, did not play like him). he goes against everything you teach a running back to do. his uniqueness is both galvanizing and polarizing, because his style is so electric, so special that it's appealing and a turn-off.

Again, everything else says otherwise. I keep bringing his final two years up because I know that offense and how north/south and restrictive it was. Sanders just made plays those years that left me shaking my head...and then he showed he could run with power and toughness. I just think we need to think about that before we say Barry couldn't be a north/south runner.