NFL Off Topic

[cjonesfan921]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

Is that what you believe? That he was top 5 on O or D in the league?

Yes.

Question, (this was before my time) when Deion was at his top, where did you consider him as a player in the league? Ranking-wise that is.

Obviously with how Watt played last year, it would make me rethink it, however, Revis was injured, who knows what kind of year he would have had. Interested in seeing how he comes back.

This has nothing to do with a catch phrase, Revis has numbers to back up any point I have made.

If you want to say that you would wait and see how he is post-injury, that's fine. Pre-injury, he was (playing like) the best defensive player in the league. Of course, that's all my opinion, some agree, some don't.

[ubernoob]

Yeah, because writers have never gotten anything wrong before. You got me.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Revis was the better pure CB, dirty chuck did more for his defense and had a better year though.

[elgreazy1]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

Yes.

Question, (this was before my time) when Deion was at his top, where did you consider him as a player in the league? Ranking-wise that is.

I like this point.
Deion shut down guys the like Rice & Irvin in big games and that's what Revis brings: he eliminates the ability to shut down prolific players who in this league are even more explosive. There is a difference between elite CB and then there is a guy like Revis who has shown HOF'ability, consistently in the league.

[wwharton]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

I'm not the only one that thinks he was robbed, there were a lot of others around the league and that cover it that thought so as well. Woodson had a really good year that year. Revis had a historic year. I guess we'll agree to disagree though.

I agree with your overall point though that CB is less important overall. That's why as good as he is, I'd trade him to help jump start the rebuilding effort.

Sure, some thought he should win, others thought Woodson should win. That is inconsistent with your earlier post stating it was a fact he was robbed. It's very, very far from a fact. It's simply your opinion... an entire argument based on an opinion holds little weight.

Yes.

Question, (this was before my time) when Deion was at his top, where did you consider him as a player in the league? Ranking-wise that is.

Obviously with how Watt played last year, it would make me rethink it, however, Revis was injured, who knows what kind of year he would have had. Interested in seeing how he comes back.

This has nothing to do with a catch phrase, Revis has numbers to back up any point I have made.

If you want to say that you would wait and see how he is post-injury, that's fine. Pre-injury, he was (playing like) the best defensive player in the league. Of course, that's all my opinion, some agree, some don't.

Deion was probably top 10 but you know how I feel about "top anything" bc you can't say in a vacuum... would really need to look at who was playing and how at the specific time we're talking about. But I don't think that's your overall point so lets say he was top 10. Deion played at a time when there could be such a thing as a shutdown corner. Revis is not that. Again, it's not his fault the rules have changed but the reality is they have. Not to mention Deion is the returner that Devin Hester looks up to and was taking every pass thrown his way back for a TD long before Ed Reed. Deion was on a different level than Revis.

And Revis doesn't have many numbers to back up anything. Again, not his fault, but measuring success at his position is too difficult to look at numbers like you're suggesting. Corners are very much judged by the eye test... not as much as offensive linemen but still. The man is very good at his job... I'd even say he's a top 5 DEFENDER in the league. But from what I remember he's had one "dominant" year and he's been better than most any other corner other years, but not "Revis Island" worthy. People are just desperate to name the next shutdown corner, but in today's NFL there are none.

I like this point.
Deion shut down guys the like Rice & Irvin in big games and that's what Revis brings: he eliminates the ability to shut down prolific players who in this league are even more explosive. There is a difference between elite CB and then there is a guy like Revis who has shown HOF'ability, consistently in the league.

I don't remember the Jets D being Revis manning up on the other team's #1 every game so I don't see how that's what he brings. Between his injuries and hold outs I think people are overhyping him a bit. The man is great... far from being ready for a bust in Canton though.

[jth1331]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

Jets wanting to trade Revis makes me think back to the Redskins trading Champ Bailey years back.
Both about the same time in the league, both looking like they are coming up to their peak.
Redskins had to give up Champ and a 2nd round pick to get a good, young RB.

I just don't see the Jets getting much for Revis, who is coming off an injury and seems like he could have some personal complications with the team.

[wwharton]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

Jets wanting to trade Revis makes me think back to the Redskins trading Champ Bailey years back.
Both about the same time in the league, both looking like they are coming up to their peak.
Redskins had to give up Champ and a 2nd round pick to get a good, young RB.

I just don't see the Jets getting much for Revis, who is coming off an injury and seems like he could have some personal complications with the team.

Was a horrible trade for the Skins, no matter what Portis did. I'd venture it'd be the same for the Jets. Despite my side of the earlier debate, corners like Revis don't grow on trees. But the difference is I don't remember Bailey being a yearly contract distraction like Revis has been. It really seems like he wants to be paid an amount he just doesn't deserve under the normal pay structure of the league.

[kingkilla56]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

Revis is never ok with his contracts because he is in a perpetual state of feeling that his worth is always increasing exponentially.

Idk what team is willing to deal with this guy's contract issues. He wants 16 mill next year and will hold out the following year to get 20 million because thats how he works.

[NYJetsfan]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

Sure, some thought he should win, others thought Woodson should win. That is inconsistent with your earlier post stating it was a fact he was robbed. It's very, very far from a fact. It's simply your opinion... an entire argument based on an opinion holds little weight.



Deion was probably top 10 but you know how I feel about "top anything" bc you can't say in a vacuum... would really need to look at who was playing and how at the specific time we're talking about. But I don't think that's your overall point so lets say he was top 10. Deion played at a time when there could be such a thing as a shutdown corner. Revis is not that. Again, it's not his fault the rules have changed but the reality is they have. Not to mention Deion is the returner that Devin Hester looks up to and was taking every pass thrown his way back for a TD long before Ed Reed. Deion was on a different level than Revis.

And Revis doesn't have many numbers to back up anything. Again, not his fault, but measuring success at his position is too difficult to look at numbers like you're suggesting. Corners are very much judged by the eye test... not as much as offensive linemen but still. The man is very good at his job... I'd even say he's a top 5 DEFENDER in the league. But from what I remember he's had one "dominant" year and he's been better than most any other corner other years, but not "Revis Island" worthy. People are just desperate to name the next shutdown corner, but in today's NFL there are none.



I don't remember the Jets D being Revis manning up on the other team's #1 every game so I don't see how that's what he brings. Between his injuries and hold outs I think people are overhyping him a bit. The man is great... far from being ready for a bust in Canton though.

I said it was the truth, being what I feel is the truth. If you want to call that my opinion, so be it. And Revis didn't cover the team's #1 WR every game? That's all he did and still does, minus the few occasions they play zone. He followed them around, slow, left side, right side...didn't matter, he covered the numero uno. If you don't think Revis is a shutdown corner, you haven't been watching his games.

[wwharton]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

I said it was the truth, being what I feel is the truth. If you want to call that my opinion, so be it. And Revis didn't cover the team's #1 WR every game? That's all he did and still does, minus the few occasions they play zone. He followed them around, slow, left side, right side...didn't matter, he covered the numero uno. If you don't think Revis is a shutdown corner, you haven't been watching his games.

1. you feeling it as truth = your opinion. That's not what I want to call it, that's fact.

2. they play more zone than you think.

3. I don't know how old you are or how long you've been watching football but there hasn't been anyone who can be called a "shutdown corner" in a long time, and that includes Revis. A young Champ Bailey? Chris McAlister? Guys have been close (including Revis, obviously). But as the rules of the game change, it's virtually impossible to shut down a guy by yourself like players did years ago.

[NYJetsfan]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

1. you feeling it as truth = your opinion. That's not what I want to call it, that's fact.

2. they play more zone than you think.

3. I don't know how old you are or how long you've been watching football but there hasn't been anyone who can be called a "shutdown corner" in a long time, and that includes Revis. A young Champ Bailey? Chris McAlister? Guys have been close (including Revis, obviously). But as the rules of the game change, it's virtually impossible to shut down a guy by yourself like players did years ago.

1. I never said fact, ever. I said what I believe to be the truth. I'm sorry this statement offended you so greatly, however. I'll try and do better next time, I promise.

2. Not even close to the amount of times they play man. Especially in 2009, the year I'm talking about. Rex Ryan was as blitz happy as anyone's ever been, thus leaving Revis in...man coverage.

3. For a guy that is a stickler about opinions, you sure like to spout yours off like it's the gospel. I'll post facts then so as to not get anything confused as my opinion, as we've established how dangerous that is. For the entire 2009 season, Revis allowed under 400 yards receiving and 3 total TDs. But if that's not lockdown enough for you, I guess no one is.

[wwharton]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

1. I never said fact, ever. I said what I believe to be the truth. I'm sorry this statement offended you so greatly, however. I'll try and do better next time, I promise.

2. Not even close to the amount of times they play man. Especially in 2009, the year I'm talking about. Rex Ryan was as blitz happy as anyone's ever been, thus leaving Revis in...man coverage.

3. For a guy that is a stickler about opinions, you sure like to spout yours off like it's the gospel. I'll post facts then so as to not get anything confused as my opinion, as we've established how dangerous that is. For the entire 2009 season, Revis allowed under 400 yards receiving and 3 total TDs. But if that's not lockdown enough for you, I guess no one is.

1. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you didn't say "it's the truth" so here's your quote...

He got absolutely robbed 3 years ago (Sorry Packers fans, it's the truth), so that argument holds very little weight. Do I think Revis is the best defensive player in the league? No, but he's in the discussion. I do think the distance between him and the 2nd best is bigger than just about any other position in football (pre-injury).

2. I know Ryan's D well. He played more zone than you think. There were other times where the blitz design had players rotating over to help. The Jets D as a whole was great and Revis' skill was a LARGE reason why, but that doesn't mean he had guys on an "island" all game like his nickname suggests.

3. Somewhere in my post I suggested my opinion is gospel? Or fact? Do you have a reply to debate what I said or is it just you suggesting that I'm trying to force my opinion on you?

BTW, Revis didn't allow 400 yards and 3 Tds, the Jets did. He played a very large role in why the Jets had that kind of success, but it is impossible to parse stats in this way for that position. For example, Deion Sanders' name has been brought up alot. Teams got to the point where they just stopped throwing his way for fear he'd pick it off and return it for a TD. If teams had continued going at him, he may have burned them once... maybe twice, but stats against him would've gone up just bc of the attempts. Unfortunately, stats can't accurately measure a corner back. He's not a "shutdown" corner. I don't know why that offends you.

[Bellsprout]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

Revis did one thing incredibly insanely ridiculously well that year.

Woodson was all over the field, played multiple positions during the course of a game, and generally wreaked havoc on every play.

It just depends on what you prefer. A true shutdown corner or a guy who probably should've been listed on the depth chart under the position of "Playmaker". Clearly the writers chose the latter.

[NYJetsfan]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

1. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you didn't say "it's the truth" so here's your quote...



2. I know Ryan's D well. He played more zone than you think. There were other times where the blitz design had players rotating over to help. The Jets D as a whole was great and Revis' skill was a LARGE reason why, but that doesn't mean he had guys on an "island" all game like his nickname suggests.

3. Somewhere in my post I suggested my opinion is gospel? Or fact? Do you have a reply to debate what I said or is it just you suggesting that I'm trying to force my opinion on you?

BTW, Revis didn't allow 400 yards and 3 Tds, the Jets did. He played a very large role in why the Jets had that kind of success, but it is impossible to parse stats in this way for that position. For example, Deion Sanders' name has been brought up alot. Teams got to the point where they just stopped throwing his way for fear he'd pick it off and return it for a TD. If teams had continued going at him, he may have burned them once... maybe twice, but stats against him would've gone up just bc of the attempts. Unfortunately, stats can't accurately measure a corner back. He's not a "shutdown" corner. I don't know why that offends you.

I really don't think you watched many, if any, of Revis' games in 2009. The Jets defense was as good as it was in 2009 because of Revis, not vice versa. They were awful at getting pressure on the QB, thus forcing Ryan to blitz at such a high rate. The reason he was able to blitz at such a high rate was the ability of Revis to take the other team's #1 WR out of the game. The other CB was Lito Shepherd for god's sake. I can assure you that the Jets defense was not as good as it was because of Lito.

To suggest that Revis' reputation was built on a "Flashy Nickname" is laughable at best, so I won't even get into that nonsense. The stats, NFL player comments, people paid to analyze the NFL, etc. all would agree.

I'm not offended at all that you don't think he's a shutdown corner. I think your opinion is incorrect on many levels, as I've tried to explain, but you are entitled to it nonetheless.

So I AGAIN will agree to disagree, as we obviously see things very differently and we won't find any common ground on the matter.

[wwharton]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

NYJetsfan, I'm going to take a different angle. You can call him whatever you want. Shutdown corner, Revis Island, whatever. They're just names made up by the media so it's silly (of me) to quantify them. Based on what a shutdown corner was said to mean, he's not one... but it's just a name so whatever. If that's what you believe he is then that's fine.

My initial response was to you saying "it's the truth" which, in and of itself is claiming that it's fact when it's far from that. PPM commented on it too, but was smarter than me and left it alone at that point. I wouldn't argue with the thought that he was the best defender in the league... but I don't agree. Many others don't agree either, including many that know a lot more about it than you or me. That alone keeps it from being fact or "the truth".

Everything that came after that was a sidetrack from the original discussion which is about him being traded and thinking he's worth an insane amount of money.

[wwharton]

Re: NFL Off Topic 2012

I really don't think you watched many, if any, of Revis' games in 2009. The Jets defense was as good as it was in 2009 because of Revis, not vice versa. They were awful at getting pressure on the QB, thus forcing Ryan to blitz at such a high rate. The reason he was able to blitz at such a high rate was the ability of Revis to take the other team's #1 WR out of the game. The other CB was Lito Shepherd for god's sake. I can assure you that the Jets defense was not as good as it was because of Lito.

To suggest that Revis' reputation was built on a "Flashy Nickname" is laughable at best, so I won't even get into that nonsense. The stats, NFL player comments, people paid to analyze the NFL, etc. all would agree.

I'm not offended at all that you don't think he's a shutdown corner. I think your opinion is incorrect on many levels, as I've tried to explain, but you are entitled to it nonetheless.

So I AGAIN will agree to disagree, as we obviously see things very differently and we won't find any common ground on the matter.

I made that last post before you sent this so I'll reply and try not to sidetrack us again.

I never suggested the Jets D made Revis better. As I said, he was a VERY LARGE part of the D. But the D didn't blitz alot bc of lack of personnel. They got Cro to make that exact scheme work even better. He ran the same blitzing scheme in Baltimore, that's how Ryan wants his D to work. In addition, I also said the D was so effective bc they had Revis but I stop short at saying the way it worked was putting him on an "island" and letting everyone else work around that. I watched it plenty and also know what Ryan did in Baltimore and it just isn't set up like that. One thing I think you've ignored is the reason it's not... today's NFL rules don't allow that to work like it used to. If you ask me if I think Revis could've been a shutdown corner back in the day, I would say absolutely but rules are different now.

And the only reason that is important is bc of the kind of money he's trying to get. As good as he is, his effectiveness is crippled by today's game. Not completely, of course... he's a HUGE addition to any team he'd be on. But (I think you've agreed on this) there are other defensive positions that have bigger impacts on an overall D to make it silly to pay him what he thinks he's worth.