NFL Off Topic

[wwharton]

Re: NFL Off Topic

66% I think was the official number, and the CBA vaguely refers to "wherever a player plays the most snaps" as to determination of a player's position for the franchise tag.

Under that language it would strike me that determining that Graham is a wide receiver - i.e. he he does not line up tight up on the line of scrimmage adjacent to the tackle on most plays - is pretty obvious.

If the NFL is opening up this can of worms as to expanding the responsibilities of the tight end position for legal purposes, how does that affect players who switch positions and then make it big? For example, what if Niles Paul randomly became an all-star and Washington wanted to tag him? Paul was drafted as a wide receiver.

Maybe I'm just thinking too much, lol.

That's where it gets tricky I guess. Where does a TE "line up"? He's far from the first TE to be split wide, and it's not done as a TE playing WR for a snap or so... that's a function of today's TE. So I personally wouldn't look at it like he lined up 66% of the time as a WR but "as a TE" he lined up in the slot 66% of the time.

Not many, but I know some tall big body wrs do it. I swear Ive seen Marques Colston do it. And if he were a beast and did most of his damage from there, the Saints (or any team for that matter) would argue he was a TE to save some cash.

Mr. Irrelevant, Marques Colston, was drafted as a TE. They moved him to WR. I think this is actually a perfect example against what you're saying.

In addition, all of the crazy examples being thrown out now make no sense. Maybe if these teams decided to (to use one example) call Eli Manning a kicker when they get to the negotiating table, but there isn't a person in the world that would let that happen. I think this also goes against the point you are trying to make. Graham's role didn't just suddenly change. Why wasn't he pushing to be listed as a WR years ago? Instead, it happens at the negotiating table... clear attempt at a money grab.

If I'm Graham I don't sign the Contract and I sit out. Your QB said they will be fine w/o you and your HC didn't fight for you. Show them your value by not playing.

Won't happen but IMO Saints did him dirty for $5 million.


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I think the focus is on the wrong thing here, and what Graham, and the rest of the people on his side, should be fighting for is an evolution of the TE pay scale. Their roles are expanding and more TEs are becoming huge focuses in the passing game, and maybe the salary scale should be adjusted accordingly. I could get behind that more than the claim that he's a WR and should be paid within the WR framework.

[wwharton]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Where's my hyperbole? A FB could just as easily run the ball 25+ times a game and, just because a depth chart says he's FB, be paid significantly less than a RB even though they do the same exact thing on the field.

Because Peterson isn't going to just agree with being listed as a FB out of the blue.

[dsallupinyaarea]

Re: NFL Off Topic

I hate when people say he's only bringing this up because of money. Of course he is. His position didn't matter before because he was paid based on his draft slot. Now that we're at the negotiating table, he's uncovered data that strongly suggests that he's a TE in name only and not function. Why is that a knock against him?

[kingkilla56]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Mr. Irrelevant, Marques Colston, was drafted as a TE. They moved him to WR. I think this is actually a perfect example against what you're saying.

In addition, all of the crazy examples being thrown out now make no sense. Maybe if these teams decided to (to use one example) call Eli Manning a kicker when they get to the negotiating table, but there isn't a person in the world that would let that happen. I think this also goes against the point you are trying to make. Graham's role didn't just suddenly change. Why wasn't he pushing to be listed as a WR years ago? Instead, it happens at the negotiating table... clear attempt at a money grab.

Colston came in as a TE and played as a WR. The Saints treated him as such and paid him as such. Jimmy came in as a TE, and plays mostly as a WR. You can say hes a TE playing in the slot, you can say hes a TE playing out wide, you can say hes a TE playing QB (if they lined him up as such). If hes playing the majority of his snaps at a spot where WRs make their money, then he has a legit claim to be labeled a WR.

And my Eli Manning point was clearly in jest to point out that what you're labelled isnt NFL Law. Of course the Saints want him to stay labelled a TE. Of course.

And is it a money grab? Of course it is. What is the problem with that? He played mostly in WR positions. Of course when money is on the line it would make sense to argue this case. Not sure how thats a shot against Graham here. Any player in a similar situation would be smart to do the same.

I keep hearing about how the Saints have no problem making Jimmy Graham the highest paid TE in football. Then why is this such a problem to give him a 12 million dollar tag? Probably has something to do with the Saints having no money right now and not wanting to pay him as such going forward.

[elTodd]

Re: NFL Off Topic

In addition, all of the crazy examples being thrown out now make no sense. Maybe if these teams decided to (to use one example) call Eli Manning a kicker when they get to the negotiating table, but there isn't a person in the world that would let that happen. I think this also goes against the point you are trying to make. Graham's role didn't just suddenly change. Why wasn't he pushing to be listed as a WR years ago? Instead, it happens at the negotiating table... clear attempt at a money grab.

I agree. If he thought he was a WR, why didn't he bring this up before? Graham wants to be paid as much as he can, just like anybody else. But this screams cash grab to me.

I think the focus is on the wrong thing here, and what Graham, and the rest of the people on his side, should be fighting for is an evolution of the TE pay scale. Their roles are expanding and more TEs are becoming huge focuses in the passing game, and maybe the salary scale should be adjusted accordingly. I could get behind that more than the claim that he's a WR and should be paid within the WR framework.

You're right. If the NFLPA really wants to fight this, they should fight the pay scale. Basing the salary on position instead of production and value is the real problem here.

[Chrisksaint]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Just make Graham the highest paid TE in the NFL at like $10M a year and be done with it. Always seemed like a reasonable # to me.

He certainly makes the impact statistically that other WRs do, but on the other hand I do agree with the notion that TEs do a lot more lining up then in a 3pt stance in today's NFL. It's been a growing thing since guys like Dallas Clark, Tony G, and Gates. So I've always seen both sides of it and probably just goes back to wwharton is saying, TE pay scales hasn't caught up to the evolution of the game today.

Contracts as a whole seem to be based on franchise tags and it's just a weird game because like the NBA positions on the field are becoming more blurred.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Why are there pay classes based on position anyway?

[dsallupinyaarea]

Re: NFL Off Topic

If I'm Graham I don't sign the Contract and I sit out. Your QB said they will be fine w/o you and your HC didn't fight for you. Show them your value by not playing.

Won't happen but IMO Saints did him dirty for $5 million.


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This actually happened? Yikes.

Why are there pay classes based on position anyway?

Antiquated thought processes.

Positional assignments, in general, are for novice viewers. Clay Matthews and Lavonte David play the same position on a depth chart and their functions on the field are completely different. What you actually do on the field and your impact should determine your pay, not what some coach puts you down as on a piece of paper.

[N51_rob]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Yep, you can Google Brees' quotes and Payton testified against him in the hearing.

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[SPTO]

Re: NFL Off Topic

This hoopla about Graham is just silly. The guy is a TE and has been his entire career. If he's really bringing up the slot WR/out wide thing then it's just arguing for arguments sake. Hell, Kellen Winslow Sr. took a TON of snaps in the slot or out wide and never disputed his TE position.

[Chrisksaint]

NFL Off Topic

The Payton thing is one thing, but c'mon what else do you expect the QB of your team to say "We need Graham or were screwed"? Kind of puts the roster of the team in a weird spot.

[dsallupinyaarea]

Re: NFL Off Topic

The Payton thing is one thing, but c'mon what else do you expect the QB of your team to say "We need Graham or were screwed"? Kind of puts the roster of the team in a weird spot.

Fair. But in that spot, it's probably best to "no comment". Brees is pretty media savvy and had to know how it'd be received.

[wwharton]

Re: NFL Off Topic

I hate when people say he's only bringing this up because of money. Of course he is. His position didn't matter before because he was paid based on his draft slot. Now that we're at the negotiating table, he's uncovered data that strongly suggests that he's a TE in name only and not function. Why is that a knock against him?

Of course he should bring it up but he didn't JUST uncover this data you speak of. That's what I meant in my last post about why all of the examples don't really apply. He could've stated last year or the year before that he thinks he should be listed as a WR. Instead, would likely happened is he and/or his agent went looking for loop holes to get him more money at the final hour. I'm not mad at him/them for that but I also have no sympathy for it and have absolutely no problem with the ruling on it.

Colston came in as a TE and played as a WR. The Saints treated him as such and paid him as such. Jimmy came in as a TE, and plays mostly as a WR. You can say hes a TE playing in the slot, you can say hes a TE playing out wide, you can say hes a TE playing QB (if they lined him up as such). If hes playing the majority of his snaps at a spot where WRs make their money, then he has a legit claim to be labeled a WR.

And my Eli Manning point was clearly in jest to point out that what you're labelled isnt NFL Law. Of course the Saints want him to stay labelled a TE. Of course.

And is it a money grab? Of course it is. What is the problem with that? He played mostly in WR positions. Of course when money is on the line it would make sense to argue this case. Not sure how thats a shot against Graham here. Any player in a similar situation would be smart to do the same.

I keep hearing about how the Saints have no problem making Jimmy Graham the highest paid TE in football. Then why is this such a problem to give him a 12 million dollar tag? Probably has something to do with the Saints having no money right now and not wanting to pay him as such going forward.

He doesn't play mostly WR, he plays TE. As I said before, maybe the pay scale for TEs should change since their roles are drastically and progressively changing. Or, even better idea, pay in relation to the franchise tag shouldn't be based on positions at all (as dsallupinyaarea suggested).

Your last paragraph is in line with what I said. Change the culture. Graham should fight to get the culture changed. I just don't agree with the way he tried to do it by exploiting a technicality in the rule book. It didn't work so obviously I'm not crazy here. But yes, he deserves to get paid. But in the grand scheme of things, this would be a stupid reason to all of a sudden have Graham, Vernon Davis, Witten, Gates, Gonzo, Pitta, Reed (and the list goes on) listed as WRs. For the sake of history we need to go back and change the listing for Shannon Sharpe too? Do the TE record books need to be adjusted as well?

No, what needs to change is how today's "pass catching" TE is paid.

[areobee401]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Issue here should be fighting to raise the TE franchise tag. News flash! TE position has evolved. Tough luck, Jimmy.

[kingkilla56]

Re: NFL Off Topic

Isnt the only way to raise a franchise tag number for a position is to have top players at that position make more money? Jimmy would have to raise the curve with his next deal to benefit the guys behind him getting tagged.