Official Denver Broncos Thread

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  • wwharton
    *ll St*r
    • Aug 2002
    • 26949

    #2851
    Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

    Originally posted by Broncos86
    Exactly. I don't get why teams would go after him with big money. If you can't produce opposite of Von Miller, then something is wrong with you.
    He didn't really get "big" money. 5 years, 35 mil is less than Cleveland gave Kruger and I take him over Kruger 8 days a week. He also only counts $2.5 mil against the cap this year.

    Not going to comment on it any further with you guys, bc I understand where you're coming from and you have every right to be pissed at him. I'll just say the Ravens are in a different situation. Their pass rush has been pretty bad for the most part. Suggs had an MVP season in '11 and the pass rush was still only decent that year. They need him more than Denver, even if he plays exactly like he did last year. And either way, after the agent screw up I'd tell him to take a hike anyway... the $5 mil of dead money on top of it makes it that much worse. If he didn't come to my favorite team, filling a need they desperately have, I'd be right there with you guys.

    Comment

    • TRC
      Rookie
      • Oct 2009
      • 209

      #2852
      Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

      Originally posted by wwharton
      He didn't really get "big" money. 5 years, 35 mil is less than Cleveland gave Kruger and I take him over Kruger 8 days a week. He also only counts $2.5 mil against the cap this year.

      Not going to comment on it any further with you guys, bc I understand where you're coming from and you have every right to be pissed at him. I'll just say the Ravens are in a different situation. Their pass rush has been pretty bad for the most part. Suggs had an MVP season in '11 and the pass rush was still only decent that year. They need him more than Denver, even if he plays exactly like he did last year. And either way, after the agent screw up I'd tell him to take a hike anyway... the $5 mil of dead money on top of it makes it that much worse. If he didn't come to my favorite team, filling a need they desperately have, I'd be right there with you guys.
      You are correct, wwharton, in that Baltimore did't take a major cap hit because of how they structured Dumervil's deal. But with the signing bonus, Baltimore is paying Doom 8.5 M this year alone. Please keep us posted on how you like Dumervil throughout the season, and if you think he is worth that kind of money.

      Serious question for you: As a Ravens fan, how do you feel about Arthur Jones referring to the Ravens now fielding "Dream Team?" Just curious.:-)
      Last edited by TRC; 03-25-2013, 07:23 PM.

      Comment

      • wwharton
        *ll St*r
        • Aug 2002
        • 26949

        #2853
        Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

        Originally posted by TRC
        You are correct, wwharton, in that Baltimore did't take a major cap hit because of how they structured Dumervil's deal. But with the signing bonus, Baltimore is paying Doom 8.5 M this year alone. Please keep us posted on how you like Dumervil throughout the season, and if you think he is worth that kind of money.

        Serious question for you: As a Ravens fan, how do you feel about Arthur Jones referring to the Ravens now fielding "Dream Team?" Just curious.:-)
        I never care about signing bonuses... why worry about how somebody else spends their money? That's straight out of the owner's pockets. I care about what counts against the cap bc that effects the rest of the players out there. Generally speaking though, I know you guys want the man to fail but he will be a success in Baltimore. Kruger is not that good and he just needs to match his production. Assuming Suggs is healthy all year, the pass rush will be better overall so even if he does have a down season, it won't be front page news. The team is also in better shape than many think. They won't be repeating but no one should've expected them to anyway. I think it'll be similar to Cutler in that his floor won't be so bad that he wasn't worth the contract and his ceiling is tied more into team success than individual success so he'll be able to be a bit under the radar.

        I didn't hear Arthur Jones' comment. I hope it was tongue in cheek since that's pretty stupid, lol. I don't really care though... they can afford to take a dip, coming off the SB. It was different with VY considering the Eagles have never won a ring and literally were bringing in a bunch of guys with that specifically in mind... plus Young's own personal history.

        With that said, he's not the first Raven to say something I thought was pretty stupid (including Ray).

        Comment

        • Jonsco28
          Bob Loblaw
          • Sep 2008
          • 1057

          #2854
          Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

          Originally posted by wwharton
          Not going to comment on it any further with you guys, bc I understand where you're coming from and you have every right to be pissed at him. I'll just say the Ravens are in a different situation. Their pass rush has been pretty bad for the most part. Suggs had an MVP season in '11 and the pass rush was still only decent that year. They need him more than Denver, even if he plays exactly like he did last year. And either way, after the agent screw up I'd tell him to take a hike anyway... the $5 mil of dead money on top of it makes it that much worse. If he didn't come to my favorite team, filling a need they desperately have, I'd be right there with you guys.
          I am not pissed at him. I am glad he's no longer a Bronco. I know you were surprised at our stance regarding Dumervil, and I'll be interested to hear what you think after you watch him play on a consistent basis. For me, he was frustrating because he doesn't have the motor that an undersized guy needs to be successful. Dumervil's best assets are his speed and long arms. He was mostly successful when he lowered his shoulder and came around the end. Teams quickly figured out all they had to do was push him out of the play. Most of sacks he got were garbage or clean-up sacks. He did cause some fumbles and he made sporadic plays, but nothing that warranted the contract he was playing under or even the 8M that Denver offered him in the end. Guys that get paid that kind of money should have an impact on every game. Dumervil was MIA in a lot of them.

          I get him chasing as much money as he can. Who wouldn't? I am just shocked it's Baltimore that went after him. When I think of the Ravens, I think of defense - nasty, mean defense. Dumervil does not fit that mold at all.

          Like Elway said...he's 'nice'.
          Last edited by Jonsco28; 03-26-2013, 10:36 AM.

          Comment

          • wwharton
            *ll St*r
            • Aug 2002
            • 26949

            #2855
            Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

            Originally posted by Jonsco28
            I am not pissed at him. I am glad he's no longer a Bronco. I know you were surprised at our stance regarding Dumervil, and I'll be interested to hear what you think after you watch him play on a consistent basis. For me, he was frustrating because he doesn't have the motor that an undersized guy needs to be successful. Dumervil's best assets are his speed and long arms. He was mostly successful when he lowered his shoulder and came around the end. Teams quickly figured out all they had to do was push him out of the play. Most of sacks he got were garbage or clean-up sacks. He did cause some fumbles and he made sporadic plays, but nothing that warranted the contract he was playing under or even the 8M that Denver offered him in the end. Guys that get paid that kind of money should have an impact on every game. Dumervil was MIA in a lot of them.

            I get him chasing as much money as he can. Who wouldn't? I am just shocked it's Baltimore that went after him. When I think of the Ravens, I think of defense - nasty, mean defense. Dumervil does not fit that mold at all.

            Like Elway said...he's 'nice'.
            Honestly, I wasn't shocked at all at the stance in here. I'm saying Baltimore is a completely different situation than Denver. We had a "decent" pass rush with Trevor Pryce a few years ago to give you an idea of what the Ravens have been working with, lol. They have Suggs who needs to play at an MVP level to even be an average pass rushing team, and Ngata collapsing the middle (he was underwhelming last year) and that's it. Kruger had a nice run with Suggs came back. I think teams couldn't figure out how to adjust... it was just great timing for him. He's not that good. Upshaw will help with run blocking but is not the answer on the end. And, of course, Sergio Kindle was cut from the practice squad last year so yeah, lol.

            The Broncos would've been stupid to continue paying him what he was making, especially considering his production... the Ravens would've been stupid too. He's a good signing considering their situation and what they're paying. They will have crazy cap issues in 2014 anyway so either he plays well and they have to deal with that, or he doesn't and they move on when figuring those things out.

            Also don't forget Pollard was widely criticized in Houston and previously mentioned Pryce was done, the corners they brought in were busts. Players have succeeded in the system. I'm curious to see how true that is without Ray and Ed around but I'll give him the chance. I think the Ravens D will surprise some people if they stay healthy. He's the big name signing but Suggs and Ngata were playing hurt (or not at all) for most of last year and they've brought in Canty and Speirs as well. They're going to be better up front than they have been in years.

            Comment

            • Jonsco28
              Bob Loblaw
              • Sep 2008
              • 1057

              #2856
              Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

              Trevor Pryce... now that was a guy that I hated to see leave Denver. If I remember right, he was battling back problems when he and Denver parted ways.

              I'll definitely be watching the Ravens with a bit more interest this year.

              I want them in Denver to open the season!

              Comment

              • wwharton
                *ll St*r
                • Aug 2002
                • 26949

                #2857
                Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

                Originally posted by Jonsco28
                Trevor Pryce... now that was a guy that I hated to see leave Denver. If I remember right, he was battling back problems when he and Denver parted ways.

                I'll definitely be watching the Ravens with a bit more interest this year.

                I want them in Denver to open the season!
                Yeah he was a shell of his Broncos self by the time he came to Baltimore. But he was a huge addition for the role he played. He's also recently had some pretty controversial comments about Ray Lewis and his pregame speeches if you want to hop on google and get a laugh (surprised they didn't pick up more steam but glad... had enough Ray crap to deal with).

                Comment

                • Jonsco28
                  Bob Loblaw
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1057

                  #2858
                  Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

                  So let me ask you this:

                  As a Ravens fan, who has the better chance of winning the Super Bowl next year - Denver or Baltimore? You said a couple of posts back that Baltimore wouldn't repeat, and no one should expect them to do so.

                  I'm just intrigued by that from Dumervil's standpoint.

                  Comment

                  • Broncos86
                    Orange and Blue!
                    • May 2009
                    • 5505

                    #2859
                    Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

                    What's interesting is that Mike Shanahan took flak for cutting Trevor Pryce after Pryce performed in Baltimore. Shanahan believed Pryce wouldn't be able to recover from the back injury, and the Broncos struggled to replace him.

                    That all being said, we already have a sack freak in Von Miller who can play all three downs and be effective as a run stopper and in pass coverage. Now, reports are that Freeney might be playing a bit of hardball and asking for more than he's worth.

                    Comment

                    • Jonsco28
                      Bob Loblaw
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1057

                      #2860
                      Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

                      Interesting. I haven't heard that Freeney is playing hardball. He's been on the market drawing little-to-no interest (at least to my knowledge).

                      Having another pass rusher on the end opposite Miller would be nice, but I actually think Denver's line will be fine even if they don't sign Freeney or Abraham. Knighton was a good pickup. Wolfe will continue to get better. Vickerson is solid. Ayers seems to be improving. Beal, Jackson, and Siliga have shown some promise for young guys. If they don't get Freeney or Abraham, they'll get somebody in the draft.

                      I love what Elway has been doing. No long term deals to free agents. Building through the draft is still a priority.

                      Comment

                      • wwharton
                        *ll St*r
                        • Aug 2002
                        • 26949

                        #2861
                        Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

                        Originally posted by Jonsco28
                        So let me ask you this:

                        As a Ravens fan, who has the better chance of winning the Super Bowl next year - Denver or Baltimore? You said a couple of posts back that Baltimore wouldn't repeat, and no one should expect them to do so.

                        I'm just intrigued by that from Dumervil's standpoint.
                        You already know my answer (said is much in your post, lol). I don't see what that has to do with Dumervil though. His relationship with the Broncos was scarred to say the least. Remember these are people we're talking about. And it's not like he left them for the Raiders. Who's got a better chance at winning the SB in 2014? 2015? Who knows... his move to Baltimore doesn't eliminate the chance of ever winning a ring, and though they're probably my favorites going into next season, staying in Denver doesn't guarantee winning one either.

                        Comment

                        • Jonsco28
                          Bob Loblaw
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1057

                          #2862
                          Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

                          Originally posted by wwharton
                          You already know my answer (said is much in your post, lol). I don't see what that has to do with Dumervil though. His relationship with the Broncos was scarred to say the least. Remember these are people we're talking about. And it's not like he left them for the Raiders. Who's got a better chance at winning the SB in 2014? 2015? Who knows... his move to Baltimore doesn't eliminate the chance of ever winning a ring, and though they're probably my favorites going into next season, staying in Denver doesn't guarantee winning one either.
                          Just because you don't think Baltimore won't doesn't mean that you think that Denver's chances are any better.

                          I get what you are saying and I agree, but guys are asked to take pay cuts all the time to help the push for winning a Super Bowl. Dumervil was a prime candidate for such a cut because he was way overpaid regardless of the situation. He got his feelings hurt instead, and I think that played more into why he left than anything else.

                          Comment

                          • Broncos86
                            Orange and Blue!
                            • May 2009
                            • 5505

                            #2863
                            I think it comes down to Elvis feeling wanted. Denver's direction was "well, whichever." Baltimore came and said "we want you here."

                            Comment

                            • wwharton
                              *ll St*r
                              • Aug 2002
                              • 26949

                              #2864
                              Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

                              Originally posted by Jonsco28
                              Just because you don't think Baltimore won't doesn't mean that you think that Denver's chances are any better.

                              I get what you are saying and I agree, but guys are asked to take pay cuts all the time to help the push for winning a Super Bowl. Dumervil was a prime candidate for such a cut because he was way overpaid regardless of the situation. He got his feelings hurt instead, and I think that played more into why he left than anything else.
                              I doubt any of you in here would listen to another word out of me if I didn't think the Broncos chances were higher than a team I'll be happy if they make the playoffs, lol. But yeah, as of today, the Broncos are probably my favorite to take it all.

                              As for the rest, you're looking at it from YOUR perspective. Guys can be asked to do anything but that doesn't mean they have to or want to. He didn't want to, so what. Honestly I'd disagree with you guys if that was all there is to it. The mess with his agent and trying to push that limit is just dumb so I get a lot of the criticism of him for all of that. But teams will do what's best for them and players will do the same. Hell, if that weren't the case you guys wouldn't have Welker.

                              You say he got his feelings hurt... I'd say he went to another team where he can continue playing a big role and have a chance to get a ring in the near future while getting paid closer to what he wants that would happen at this point in Denver.

                              Comment

                              • av7
                                Hall Of Fame
                                • Dec 2007
                                • 11408

                                #2865
                                Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

                                Originally posted by wwharton
                                while getting paid closer to what he wants that would happen at this point in Denver.
                                I don't know about that, unless you're talking about Year 4 and Year 5

                                Ravens deal

                                2013: $1 million salary; $7.5 million signing bonus = $8.5 million (fully guaranteed)
                                2014: $1 million salary; $3.5 million option bonus (injury-only guarantee) = $4.5 million
                                2015: $4 million salary
                                2016: $4 million salary
                                2017: 5 million salary

                                Totals
                                1 year: $8.5 million
                                2 years: $13 million
                                3 years: $17 million
                                5 years: $26 million ($5.2 million/yr average)
                                Full guarantee: $8.5 million
                                Escalators: $7 million; incentives: $2 million
                                Broncos offer

                                2013: $5 million salary; $3 million signing bonus = $8 million (fully guaranteed)
                                2014: $5 million ($2 million fully guaranteed)
                                2015: $5 million

                                Totals
                                1 year: $8 million
                                2 years: $13 million
                                3 years: $18 million ($6 million/yr average)
                                Full guarantee; $10 million.
                                Escalators: At least $2 million; $1 million each of first two years with 12 sacks.
                                Aaron
                                Moderator

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