OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

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  • baa7
    Banned
    • Jul 2004
    • 11691

    #106
    Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

    Originally posted by pskepsilon
    Come on, now...at Pinehurst the last two winners at the U.S. Open were -1 and even par, respectively. Tiger won last year at Torrey Pines with a -1 through 72. I know the courses are made tougher for the majors, but not 20+ strokes tougher.
    I don't think anyone's suggesting CPU scores in the -30 and below range are realistic. But there are different ways of looking at this. The developers made the scoring in the game very difficult, meaning players like Divotmaker get a challenge this year. As for me and my skills, I may never win a single tourney in Career mode, but I'm perfectly fine with that. Gives me lots to shoot for as far as improvement goes. And sure, a difficulty slider is needed, that's obvious. Hopefully next year.

    Comment

    • pskepsilon
      Rookie
      • Jul 2003
      • 66

      #107
      Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

      Originally posted by DivotMaker
      For a video game, no. I played the Live Tournament at Bethpage yesterday with Grids off and over 4 rounds was +22. That was more frustrating than rewarding. Somewhere in between the two scores would be about right in tough conditions....
      But we're not talking about user performance here. We're talking about AI performance. It's already been well-established that this game is very good (laudably good, in fact) at allowing you to tailor your player and settings via difficulty, options, and club tuning to allow you to score pretty much however you want relative to your skill level.

      The problem is that the game doesn't allow you to compete in realistic tournaments because the AI scoring simply ASSUMES that everyone is going to want to play with a superhuman golfer with certain assists on and seems to have the AI play at a similar level to provide a challenge under those conditions. The problem is that if you want to make your player and the game realistic, (i.e. you shoot in the low 60's on your best day and anywhere from 65-75 normally), which happens to be roughly what the best players on the PGA Tour do, you can never even come close to winning a tournament. That's just completely bogus. For a game that advertised itself as getting you as close to real tournament golf as possible, it is a completely unacceptable situation for "real tournaments" to supposedly have the winners in the 20-35 under range almost every single time out.

      Realistic is realistic. The fact is that we have empirical evidence of what typical scoring is based on what has actually happened over the past several decades of real PGA tournaments. In this framework, it would be completely trivial to create a model that performs realistically, especially considering the fact that given that you don't play with CPU-controlled players during actual gameplay, the whole thing boils down to a simple exercise in number generation.

      I'm a lousy programmer, but even I could create a routine that would generate realistic scores with a little bit of research and about an hour (at most) of coding. Either EA is just completely lazy in this respect, or they simply do not CARE that the CPU scoring is hideously unrealistic. If it's the latter, they shouldn't be advertising the game as providing a "realistic tournament experience."

      Comment

      • Klocker
        MVP
        • Jul 2003
        • 3239

        #108
        Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

        Originally posted by pskepsilon
        But we're not talking about user performance here. We're talking about AI performance. It's already been well-established that this game is very good (laudably good, in fact) at allowing you to tailor your player and settings via difficulty, options, and club tuning to allow you to score pretty much however you want relative to your skill level.

        The problem is that the game doesn't allow you to compete in realistic tournaments because the AI scoring simply ASSUMES that everyone is going to want to play with a superhuman golfer with certain assists on and seems to have the AI play at a similar level to provide a challenge under those conditions. The problem is that if you want to make your player and the game realistic, (i.e. you shoot in the low 60's on your best day and anywhere from 65-75 normally), which happens to be roughly what the best players on the PGA Tour do, you can never even come close to winning a tournament. That's just completely bogus. For a game that advertised itself as getting you as close to real tournament golf as possible, it is a completely unacceptable situation for "real tournaments" to supposedly have the winners in the 20-35 under range almost every single time out....

        good post.

        I think a lot of this problem is, as mentioned, the yahoos who won't even buy Tiger if they can't tell their friends that the shot 30 under par.


        I think the tour Pro mode in online Tourneys is a step in the right direction with the level cap but God I wish they could figure a way to have separate games within the gam. Arcade for the Yahoos and sim and have sim players work hard to socre 5 under.

        Comment

        • NateTeut
          Rookie
          • Feb 2003
          • 32

          #109
          For comparison's sake, these are the under-par scores the winning golfer has posted on the actual PGA Tour so far this year:

          -24 -15 -33 (!! - The Bob Hope) -14 -11 -15 -15 -13 -9 -19 -14 -8 -5 -11 -12 (Masters) -20 -14 -11 -12 -15 -19 -17 -12 -18

          Looks like something between about -12 and -18 is around the norm (-14.8 to be exact), which is actually further under par than I would've thought. Before I looked, I would've guessed the average winner shot between like a -7 to -13 or so......
          Last edited by NateTeut; 06-18-2009, 01:14 PM. Reason: Add word.

          Comment

          • pskepsilon
            Rookie
            • Jul 2003
            • 66

            #110
            Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

            Originally posted by baa7
            I don't think anyone's suggesting CPU scores in the -30 and below range are realistic. But there are different ways of looking at this. The developers made the scoring in the game very difficult, meaning players like Divotmaker get a challenge this year. As for me and my skills, I may never win a single tourney in Career mode, but I'm perfectly fine with that. Gives me lots to shoot for as far as improvement goes. And sure, a difficulty slider is needed, that's obvious. Hopefully next year.
            That's fine for you. And I'm inclined to agree that this game (on the Wii, at least) is worth the $60 even if you never play a single tournament. But the problem is that it would be so easy to make the tournaments accessible to people who only play as well as REAL PGA golfers. And they advertised this game as bringing you as close as ever to real tournament golf. So when the tournaments are crippled for anyone who doesn't want to turn the game into a cheesy arcade-style birdie fest, it's not an inconsequential problem.

            I'm probably just going to play single rounds of stroke play and compete against myself with the more realistic settings that I prefer, but I shouldn't have to do that. I bought a game that touted a realistic tournament experience and the CPU scoring is so ridiculous that it's anything but. It's a completely unacceptable situation for someone who plays on Advanced difficulty with aids turned off who is good enough to shoot in the 60's regularly to have no chance of winning a tournament.

            Comment

            • pskepsilon
              Rookie
              • Jul 2003
              • 66

              #111
              Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

              Originally posted by NateTeut
              For comparison's sake, these are the under-par scores the winning golfer has posted on the actual PGA Tour so far this year:

              -24 -15 -33 (!! - The Bob Hope) -14 -11 -15 -15 -13 -9 -19 -14 -8 -5 -11 -12 (Masters) -20 -14 -11 -12 -15 -19 -17 -12 -18

              Looks like something between about -12 and -18 is around the norm (-14.8 to be exact), which is actually further under par than I would've thought. Before I looked, I would've guessed the average winner shot between like a -7 to -13 or so......
              The thing that complicates this a bit is that scoring in golf is pretty much dependent on a combination of course difficulty and the weather conditions. This series makes no effort, as far as I can tell, to distinguish these varying factors when generating scores, when in fact the human player (particularly in the case of course difficulty) does have to deal with it.

              If you play a major tournament in this game, or a regular tournament at a difficult course, the scores are pretty much indistinguishable from those of easier courses. If I ever saw a winning score of like -2 or -3 in a major tournament in one of these games, I'd probably crap my pants.

              As an example, the first amateur tournament I played on my Wii career was a one-round tourney at Bethpage Black. Even on Standard difficulty (to see if the inflated scoring was related to difficulty), there were four players at -6 and several at -5 and -4. And these are supposed to be Amateurs. The notion that a group of no-name golfers could (extrapolated) shoot in the neighborhood of -24 for four rounds at a course like Bethpage Black is, quite simply, absurd.

              Comment

              • Klocker
                MVP
                • Jul 2003
                • 3239

                #112
                Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

                Originally posted by NateTeut
                For comparison's sake, these are the under-par scores the winning golfer has posted on the actual PGA Tour so far this year:

                -24 -15 -33 (!! - The Bob Hope) -14 -11 -15 -15 -13 -9 -19 -14 -8 -5 -11 -12 (Masters) -20 -14 -11 -12 -15 -19 -17 -12 -18

                Looks like something between about -12 and -18 is around the norm (-14.8 to be exact), which is actually further under par than I would've thought. Before I looked, I would've guessed the average winner shot between like a -7 to -13 or so......

                wow interesting... I did not know that

                Comment

                • Klocker
                  MVP
                  • Jul 2003
                  • 3239

                  #113
                  Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

                  OTOH, last night in the Tour Pro weekly challenge the leader was -35 (can't remember if that was after 3 or 4 rounds)

                  Comment

                  • Seymour Scagnetti
                    Banned
                    • Oct 2006
                    • 2489

                    #114
                    Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

                    Originally posted by pskepsilon
                    That's fine for you. And I'm inclined to agree that this game (on the Wii, at least) is worth the $60 even if you never play a single tournament. But the problem is that it would be so easy to make the tournaments accessible to people who only play as well as REAL PGA golfers. And they advertised this game as bringing you as close as ever to real tournament golf. So when the tournaments are crippled for anyone who doesn't want to turn the game into a cheesy arcade-style birdie fest, it's not an inconsequential problem.

                    I'm probably just going to play single rounds of stroke play and compete against myself with the more realistic settings that I prefer, but I shouldn't have to do that. I bought a game that touted a realistic tournament experience and the CPU scoring is so ridiculous that it's anything but. It's a completely unacceptable situation for someone who plays on Advanced difficulty with aids turned off who is good enough to shoot in the 60's regularly to have no chance of winning a tournament.
                    You're not losing much trust me. The Wii career mode is god awful with bizarre objectives and absolutely ZERO stats to look at and you have no idea where you rank which becomes really bizarre because once you get to PGA tour champion (which I guess is suppose to be the season mode) the only way you get to play at a major is becoming a top 10 ranked player except you have no idea what you rank because there are no damn season stats to look at. It gives you no clue on where you rank in Fedex cup points. Its completely inept.

                    I had to change to all play mode just so I could win some tourneys to get past amateur and rookie levels because the 4th round AI is ridiculous. We're talking the leader posting 62 or less every 4th round if your close to the top. Considering pin placements are supposed to be harder on the last day I can't remember the last time a real golfer posted a 62 to win a tourney the last day.

                    Do not waste your time playing career mode as all the hours I spent getting to the 3rd level was a complete waste of time and I felt like an idiot wasting all that time. The Wii is excellent for gameplay but totally dropped the ball in all othe raspects of the Wii version. It has less PGA season depth then the Links PC games from 10 years ago. EA stripped down the title as a way I guess of making you buy next year's game since gameplay can't be improved much so they give you something but then take something else away.

                    This game is only good for single rounds, but that gets boring fast, and as a party game. I've gotten bored and this game will only be played with friends over which is too bad because if it had a half decent season mode I would play this for months.
                    Last edited by Seymour Scagnetti; 06-18-2009, 08:34 PM.

                    Comment

                    • DivotMaker
                      MVP
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 2703

                      #115
                      Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

                      This must be primarily a Wii issue as I just finished the AT&T at Pebble Beach winning with a -33 to Tiger in 2nd at -17. I had one unbelievable round of 58 in round 2 that blew the field away and made the tournament a cakewalk, so I have not seen the "catch up AI" that Wii users and others are seeing. Every tournament I have played in TOUR Pro has had believable scoring so far.
                      PC / Xbox One X

                      Xbox One Elite Controller

                      The Golf Club 2

                      Comment

                      • MrArlingtonBeach
                        MVP
                        • Feb 2009
                        • 4530

                        #116
                        Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

                        Originally posted by DivotMaker
                        This must be primarily a Wii issue as I just finished the AT&T at Pebble Beach winning with a -33 to Tiger in 2nd at -17. I had one unbelievable round of 58 in round 2 that blew the field away and made the tournament a cakewalk, so I have not seen the "catch up AI" that Wii users and others are seeing. Every tournament I have played in TOUR Pro has had believable scoring so far.
                        Unfortunately, I am playing on the 360 and saw Tiger win tourneys with -32 and -28 scores. Granted, I did play on Pro difficulty, but played with boost, spin and putting grid off. But I did play the first tourney of the year on Tour Pro and the winner shot a -28. That's why I switched to Pro...just so I could be competitive. Even with that, I only won one event shooting a -24 and proceeded the next weekend to shoot a +1.

                        While Wii may have even higher scores, the 360 (and I am assuming the PS3) also has higher-than-normal final scores.
                        Last edited by MrArlingtonBeach; 06-19-2009, 09:04 PM.
                        Orbis Non Suficit

                        Comment

                        • MrArlingtonBeach
                          MVP
                          • Feb 2009
                          • 4530

                          #117
                          Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

                          Some more progress on this topic...

                          Just finished the second round of the EA Sports Major @ Oakmont. So far, I shot a 66-66 (-10).

                          This is good enough for T-27th!!!!

                          Some dude named Matt Jones dropped in a second-round 60 and is in second place behind Anthony Kim, who is 63-61 (-17).

                          Tiger made his usual run, finishing 65-64 (-12).

                          The cut for this Major championship event...-6.

                          PS - I have also noticed scoring issues...two rounds of 66 at Oakmont should be -8 (the course is a par 70...so 66 + 66 = 132. 70 + 70 = 140). However, I started the third round at -10 on the leaderboard...
                          Last edited by MrArlingtonBeach; 06-19-2009, 09:24 PM.
                          Orbis Non Suficit

                          Comment

                          • MrArlingtonBeach
                            MVP
                            • Feb 2009
                            • 4530

                            #118
                            Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

                            One more note...

                            Finished the Major...winner A. Kim shot -29.

                            One golfer shot a 58(!) in the fourth round.

                            I finished at -10 and was next-to-last place of all those who made the cut.
                            Orbis Non Suficit

                            Comment

                            • bigal093
                              Banned
                              • Apr 2009
                              • 529

                              #119
                              Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

                              Originally posted by MrArlingtonBeach
                              One more note...

                              Finished the Major...winner A. Kim shot -29.

                              One golfer shot a 58(!) in the fourth round.

                              I finished at -10 and was next-to-last place of all those who made the cut.
                              exactlty the point. All these people say that it isnt bad. well -10 in a major will most likely win it. to be tied for last among those who made the cut, is just ridiculous!

                              Comment

                              • pskepsilon
                                Rookie
                                • Jul 2003
                                • 66

                                #120
                                Re: OMG ,WHAT A JOKE!!!

                                Originally posted by DivotMaker
                                This must be primarily a Wii issue as I just finished the AT&T at Pebble Beach winning with a -33 to Tiger in 2nd at -17. I had one unbelievable round of 58 in round 2 that blew the field away and made the tournament a cakewalk, so I have not seen the "catch up AI" that Wii users and others are seeing. Every tournament I have played in TOUR Pro has had believable scoring so far.
                                I was actually wondering myself if it might be a Wii-specific issue because I did not experience this problem in Tiger Woods 09 on the PS3. It seemed hard to imagine that they would have a reasonable scoring model in 09 and then break it in 10 when so much else is the same. But the reports are scattered across all systems, in general. Maybe the Wii just has the worst of both worlds in terms of AI, but there is something to be said about the fact that you can even conceivably shoot a 58 on Tour Pro difficulty at Pebble Beach within a couple weeks of owning the game. And shooting -33 for a tournament on Tour Pro pretty much means that the game is probably too easy in general. Although given the limitations of the analog stick mechanic I suppose there's not much that can be done about this short of tuning your clubs to make things as touchy as possible, and that probably wouldn't even be fun.

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