F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

[Tovarich]

Re: F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

Bravo to Rosberg for staying behind Hamilton like he was told, as much as he didn't like it. I was rooting for someone beside Vettel to win this year anyway, not because I had a problem with him, just want to see others in contention, but I have found a reason to dislike him for now.

[Redacted01]

Re: F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

James Hinchcliffe gets his first career win and does what Danica couldn't do: win in the GoDaddy.com car.

[Segagendude]

Re: F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

What's wrong is that Webber slowed down on team orders as he was told that both drivers were to keep their position and nurse the cars home. Had he known Vettel was going to try to pass him, he would not have slowed down. It's a bitch move and the team called him out on it.

Ah ok. I didn't watch the race yet; I just read a recap. I'd forgotten they were on the same team. Makes sense then..

[superjames1992]

Re: F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

What's wrong is that Webber slowed down on team orders as he was told that both drivers were to keep their position and nurse the cars home. Had he known Vettel was going to try to pass him, he would not have slowed down. It's a bitch move and the team called him out on it.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of team orders and all, but I do understand why Webber was pissed given the situation.

I was disappointed that Alonso got knocked out so early. We need someone to knock Vettel off his lofty pedestal this year, though I don't really care who does it.

Anyways, that was a good IRL race earlier, too. Good racing, all around. The moment when Hildebrand drove over Will Power's car under caution should be used in a commercial for why not to text and drive.

[Redacted01]

Re: F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of team orders and all, but I do understand why Webber was pissed given the situation.

I was disappointed that Alonso got knocked out so early. We need someone to knock Vettel off his lofty pedestal this year, though I don't really care who does it.

Anyways, that was a good IRL race earlier, too. Good racing, all around. The moment when Hildebrand drove over Will Power's car under caution should be used in a commercial for why not to text and drive.

But he was just messing with settings in his car, so really, that means they need to not only take away our phones, but take away our radios, our air conditioners, our GPS, etc... because it is dangerous to mess with your dash/steering wheel and drive.

[18 eighty 5]

If there was ever to be a current formula 1 driver to be dudded by a team mate against team orders that cost him first place it would have to be Webber. The guy is so unlucky and has been his whole career.

He was on local sports radio here in Melbourne some years ago before a race doing an interview and I forget exactly how it went but I think he was asked what sort of casual/fun thing would he like to do in Australia. He said he would like to drive across the country from east to west. One of the interviewers chipped in, tongue in cheek, and said 'do you think you would actually get to the other side?' having a crack at his then poor finishing record in races due to car failures. Webber fumed.

[pk500]

Re: F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

Red Bull and Mercedes showed how team orders shouldn't and should be done today.

Vettel is a prat. But the even bigger problem with Red Bull is Dr. Helmut Marko. He's Vettel's mentor and a friend of Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz. Even though Christian Horner is the team principal, Marko has a disproportionate amount of power within the team due to his Mateschitz friendship even though he's little more than a glorified helmet holder these days.

Horner will earn his money as team principal the next two weeks. He needs to defuse the tension between Vettel and Webber while re-establishing his authority within the team with Vettel and Marko, all while not alienating Mateschitz. As long as Red Bull wins, I don't think Mateschitz will care.

VERY intriguing race today with some excellent dicing up front and behind, especially between Webber and Vettel and Raikkonen, Button and Massa.

I wish Shanghai was next Sunday. Roll on, F1!

[RJTurneR]

Re: F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

I don't often pop around these parts, but I really need to unload on this whole team orders thing.

First off, anyone who points the blame at Vettel, shouldn't, team orders might be legal as it stands, but we know what happens when one is called.

Horner should of never of put either of them in that situation. They led Webber to believe he would finish the race off were he was, as after his last stop, they basically turned down the engine and let him cruise. If Red Bull presumed Vettel would slow down, that's their fault. This is a guy who has won 3 world titles, 3 years in a row, at the young age of 25. His arguably one of the greatest drivers already. To expect him to sit behind his team mate, and potentially put a dent in his hopes of winning a 4th, is in itself, stupid.

They should of allowed Webber to respond as necessary and allow Vettel to continue pushing. Vettel did the one thing many drivers have not had the guts to do, and that's honoring that call. He knew Alonso was out, arguably his main contender. Those extra 7 points could come in handy if Alonso makes a push. People think it was reckless. I think it was genius.

And let's be honest, either outcome was going to be the same. Webber wins, Seb is left shaking his head. Seb wins, Webbers left shaking his head. So either way, who's to blame? The management, they clearly don't trust either driver after 2010 which is wrong. Incidents happen, that's racing. If your not going to allow your drivers to race each other, then tensions will build inside the team. And that's what has happened here.

Let them get on with it. In regards to Mercedes, despite I still don't agree with it, their situation is different. They are just trying to find stability after struggling through their first few seasons with Nico and Schumi. They are trying to remain consistent.

[18 eighty 5]

The tension exists because of this insisted idea of F1 being a 'team sport'. In motor racing it looks bad and feels bad to see the competitive edge deliberately ordered against. It makes things dull and at worst has the scent of races, even the championship being fixed.

Imagine if this last race was the final race of the season and Webber and Vettel both could win the championship by finishing first.It would be crushing for the drivers and the viewers to endure team orders that cancel the drivers from competing. I dont think the team boss would step in at that point but it would be mad if they did.

On the other hand I was annoyed at Vettel because it looks dirty when team mates ignore orders and knife eachother. It doesn't feel right. It looked like a violation of trust and that doesn't sit well. If this happened at our individual work places in whatever context it would apply we wouldn't celebrate the selfishness of the act made against us. We would feel betrayed and morale takes a big hit, trust goes out the window, suspicions rise.

Also, what special claim does Vettel have on this years championship over Webber? Surely Alonso being out of the race is just as much in the interest of Webber as Vettel?

I think this last race divides opinion sharply because some will applaud Vettel's victory as a competitors right to compete. Others will be annoyed because they see and feel a violation has taken place sacrificing trust and teamwork.

[Tovarich]

Re: F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

If it were the last race of the year and they could both win, then Red Bull would have the Constructors beyond wrapped up I am fairly certain, so they would not intervene there, but point taken.

I'm not sure Vettel thinks he did anything wrong. He apologized because he knows he has to, but I don't know if any of it is insincere. My DVR initially cut off the interviews, which I don't normally watch, but I caught a replay yesterday and loved Webber's comments about Vettel being protected. If the scenario comes where Vettel has a chance to let Webber pass to win, I don't think Webber would want to take it. He's said before he doesn't want or need Vettel's charity. If Rosberg has something to accomplish later, then I am sure Hamilton will move out of his way given the opportunity.

It can function as a team sport, just like other racing leagues do. But other racing leagues don't so publicly declare that one driver is #1 above the others. If it were a true team sport, then both drivers would be treated exactly equally regardless of their position in the standings. That dynamic is something to be looked at. If I'm Webber, I am understandably fuming at pretty much anyone, but if I'm Vettel, I don't know that I could truly convince myself I did anything wrong. The team has a lot of work to do, to rebuild the trust between the two drivers, between the drivers and the higher ups, and to start figuring out who they'll get to replace Webber next year haha. I don't know if those two can coexist after this.

[18 eighty 5]

It can function as a team sport, just like other racing leagues do. But other racing leagues don't so publicly declare that one driver is #1 above the others. If it were a true team sport, then both drivers would be treated exactly equally regardless of their position in the standings. That dynamic is something to be looked at.

Well said!!

[RJTurneR]

Re: F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

Also, what special claim does Vettel have on this years championship over Webber? Surely Alonso being out of the race is just as much in the interest of Webber as Vettel?

That's not what I'm saying. Vettel passed Webber knowing that Alonso was out and that it would boost his chances in the championship. Now Horner came out and said "We wasn't going to ask him to give the place back, why would he do that". So why don't you ask Webber to either A) Defend the position before hand or B) Attack Vettel. He didn't make the call on either, which just shows even more that he clearly doesn't trust either to race.

Vettel made the call based on his instincts there and then. Webber was relying on team orders and lost out because of it. Webber could of easily gone after Vettel, but he didn't..

[pk500]

Re: F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

I don't often pop around these parts, but I really need to unload on this whole team orders thing.

First off, anyone who points the blame at Vettel, shouldn't, team orders might be legal as it stands, but we know what happens when one is called.

Horner should of never of put either of them in that situation. They led Webber to believe he would finish the race off were he was, as after his last stop, they basically turned down the engine and let him cruise. If Red Bull presumed Vettel would slow down, that's their fault. This is a guy who has won 3 world titles, 3 years in a row, at the young age of 25. His arguably one of the greatest drivers already. To expect him to sit behind his team mate, and potentially put a dent in his hopes of winning a 4th, is in itself, stupid.

They should of allowed Webber to respond as necessary and allow Vettel to continue pushing. Vettel did the one thing many drivers have not had the guts to do, and that's honoring that call. He knew Alonso was out, arguably his main contender. Those extra 7 points could come in handy if Alonso makes a push. People think it was reckless. I think it was genius.

And let's be honest, either outcome was going to be the same. Webber wins, Seb is left shaking his head. Seb wins, Webbers left shaking his head. So either way, who's to blame? The management, they clearly don't trust either driver after 2010 which is wrong. Incidents happen, that's racing. If your not going to allow your drivers to race each other, then tensions will build inside the team. And that's what has happened here.

Let them get on with it. In regards to Mercedes, despite I still don't agree with it, their situation is different. They are just trying to find stability after struggling through their first few seasons with Nico and Schumi. They are trying to remain consistent.

Preposterous. Vettel is an employee of Red Bull Racing. He's supposed to obey team orders from the pit wall. But Marko's inexplicable power within the team gives Vettel the illusion he can do whatever he pleases.

There also may have been other factors at work here besides pecking order when Horner made his demands to his drivers from the pit wall. The Pirelli tires were degrading rapidly, and Horner and Adrian Newey knew that hard, side-by-side overtaking might put both cars at risk of crashing and throwing away 43 points.

Words also came from the pit wall for both drivers to turn down their engines and save fuel. So either engine durability or fuel conservation may have been serious concerns of Red Bull Racing management.

Vettel's job is to do exactly what Horner tells him from the pit wall. Disobeying team directions is not an option for a race driver.

[RJTurneR]

Re: F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

Vettel's job is to do exactly what Horner tells him from the pit wall. Disobeying team directions is not an option for a race driver.

Vettels job is to race, as is every other drivers job. I'm ok with orders that ask drivers to conserve fuel or tyres, or to try and keep pace, etc, etc...

But your saying is that when Massa was leading the race a few years ago, had no reason to let Alonso through, he was driving for position and for the win, that it was ok for his engineer to turn aroud and say "Alonso is faster than you, can you comfirm this message?". Alonso was higher up in the standings at that point, and they were fined because they changed the outcome of the race, without allowing the drivers to compete fairly. Same thing happened with them in 2002, right before the finish line, and Rubens let Schumi through and he went on to win the championship.

But that's acceptable .. right? It's perfectly acceptable to not allow these drivers to fairly compete for position, and to simply give an order and say move over or stay behind.

Last time I checked, it was called racing. Once again, a team order has split F1 fans in half, the only reason they allowed team orders is because Ferrari cried to Bernie and the FIA. It was illegal before for a reason. I mean, technically speaking, surely it classes as fixing the outcome of a competitive sport?

[pk500]

Re: F1/IRL/All Other Forms of motorsports Thread

But that's acceptable .. right? It's perfectly acceptable to not allow these drivers to fairly compete for position, and to simply give an order and say move over or stay behind.

Last time I checked, it was called racing. Once again, a team order has split F1 fans in half, the only reason they allowed team orders is because Ferrari cried to Bernie and the FIA. It was illegal before for a reason. I mean, technically speaking, surely it classes as fixing the outcome of a competitive sport?

That scenario is not desirable, but it IS acceptable. Drivers are employees, nothing more. They are supposed to do what their bosses tell them.

Every Constructors point is worth MILLIONS of dollars. For example, Red Bull earned a reported $115 million from the F1 prize fund for winning the Constuctors Championship in 2011. The prize for the championship-winning Constructor in 2016 reportedly will climb to $285 million.

Red Bull Racing's primary job is to win the Constructors' title, not the Drivers' title. All of the points-related revenue in F1 comes from Constructors' points. So team bosses will do EVERYTHING possible to preserve those points, hence team orders in certain situations.

It's not an ideal situation. But it's reality in a sport in which nine-figure sums are tossed around the way we toss a fiver on the bar to buy a draft beer.